Thoner7 Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Its a matter of debt. A highly leveraged team in LA or Toronto is not as profitable as a mush less leveraged team in Buffalo. The Bills have one of the highest ROIs in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Its a matter of debt. A highly leveraged team in LA or Toronto is not as profitable as a mush less leveraged team in Buffalo. The Bills have one of the highest ROIs in the NFL. Agreed, but it seems to be a given that ANY new owner of the Bills, in Buffalo or elsewhere, is going to have the debt to finance, so the question becomes where is it easier to finance the debt? Unfortunately, I'd say the answer is likely to be outside Buffalo--a shrinking population, little to no corporate HQs, an average income per resident that is less than most other parts of the country, etc. Realistically, I think the best Bills fans can hope for after RW's passing is that the team is sold to someone who will keep the team in the region--ie., the Niagara Frontier Bills, playing some games in Toronto and some in Buffalo. A sad state some may say, but much preferable to the other option of moving to a place like LA..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Agreed, but it seems to be a given that ANY new owner of the Bills, in Buffalo or elsewhere, is going to have the debt to finance, so the question becomes where is it easier to finance the debt? Unfortunately, I'd say the answer is likely to be outside Buffalo--a shrinking population, little to no corporate HQs, an average income per resident that is less than most other parts of the country, etc. Realistically, I think the best Bills fans can hope for after RW's passing is that the team is sold to someone who will keep the team in the region--ie., the Niagara Frontier Bills, playing some games in Toronto and some in Buffalo. A sad state some may say, but much preferable to the other option of moving to a place like LA..... The NFL does not let owners finance that much ($150m?) of the purchase price. The most a new owner of the Bills will have in debt service costs is $10-15m per year. Doubt it is the same for stadiums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8-8 Forever? Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Have trouble seeing a group that is trying to keep the team local, being able to keep up with bidding against a investment group planning on moving the team. Area cant afford much as far as incentives to keep the team, and if add the debt burden to the mix, will have a hard time keeping ticket prices low enough to keep the stadium full. That being said, I have a feeling that L.A. market will probably already have a team by the time that the team goes up for sale. this is a great thread. thanks all for sticking to logical arguments and not being stupid homers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 i'd discount L.A. for the Bills.i can't see the NFL giving up on this region. note, i used the word "region," one that includes southern Ontario. jw John W., Ralph's marketing strategy led by Russ Brandon has skewed the direction where the franchise is most likely to end up: Toronto. The Rogers group, which is now led by the son of the Rogers' group leader, has made it clear that they will very aggressively bid for the team when it is up for sale. One advantage a Toronto group has over a LA group is that an argument can be made that since Bills' games have been played in Toronto they are not technically a new market but an extension of the current western NY market. If that argument is accepted the Toronto group would not have to pay the expensive relocation fee to the league. Not only would the market extend from western NY through southern Ontario and up towards Toronto but the team would also be marketed as the Canadian NFL team. The Toronto group is not merely a collection of wealthy people who want the "prestige" of an NFL franchise to boast about. The Toronto group is essentially a media conglomerate. The Blls franchise would be a sports cable attraction to market not only in the lucrative Toronto market but also the Canadian market from the east coast to the west coast. Montreal, Vancouver, Edmonton, Quebec City etc would be included in the marketing areas. Does anyone doubt that the Rogers group when negotiating the current Bills deal told Ralph Wilson how much they would be willing to pay for his franchise when it was on the block? Ralph probably drooled over himself when the stupendous figure was mentioned. No one can predict where the Bills are going to be when it is auctioned off. But my view is that it will be located in Toronto. Forget about appealing to Ralph's sentimental side. It doesn't exist, it has never existed. It's just business. Nothing personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted October 16, 2009 Author Share Posted October 16, 2009 My only problem with the Toronto Bills argument is the fact that Canadian government does not make any concessions or provide help to sports teams. No freebies that a lot of NFL teams have come to expect and count on. Hard for me to imagine a NFL franchise moving to any Canadian city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Having just spent a weekend (for a conference) in Toronto in early September during which I attended a couple of Jays/Yanks games, I have to say, the overall vibe is distinctly underwhelming: crappy physical plant, not that many seats, and truly disinterested fans. Toronto is a hockey town, and I suspect that IF the Bills ended doing a 50/50 split with Toronto under new ownership, within ten years the games would be back in Buffalo, a la GB/Milwaukee. Plus you have the whole resentment-of-the-US factor vis-a-vis the Argos (a position I respect, btw). What people seem to forget is that 21st century capitalism is all about branding, and part of branding is hawking "authenticity" -- i.e., tradition and origins (i.e., an "original" AFL franchice). I strongly suspect that Toronto would be a bust if it happened, and it's also why I think that teams that can't play the authenticity card as well as the Bills -- Jax, for one -- are far more likely to move. It's sad that the owner in Buffalo doesn't realize what he has and seems oblivious to the power of branding in our era -- always crying poverty and "it's a bad economy" while doing quite well -- but he's 91 and I guess I can't fault him for it. But if he'd open his eyes he'd see that the Bills perform remarkably well given the terrible team he fields. If this team was any good -- a consistent playoff team -- we'd be talking about 65K season tickets with an average price of around $65. But he doesn't get it, refusing to pay for what really makes a good team (coaching). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bananathumb Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Having just spent a weekend (for a conference) in Toronto in early September during which I attended a couple of Jays/Yanks games, I have to say, the overall vibe is distinctly underwhelming: crappy physical plant, not that many seats, and truly disinterested fans. Toronto is a hockey town, and I suspect that IF the Bills ended doing a 50/50 split with Toronto under new ownership, within ten years the games would be back in Buffalo, a la GB/Milwaukee. Plus you have the whole resentment-of-the-US factor vis-a-vis the Argos (a position I respect, btw). What people seem to forget is that 21st century capitalism is all about branding, and part of branding is hawking "authenticity" -- i.e., tradition and origins (i.e., an "original" AFL franchice). I strongly suspect that Toronto would be a bust if it happened, and it's also why I think that teams that can't play the authenticity card as well as the Bills -- Jax, for one -- are far more likely to move. It's sad that the owner in Buffalo doesn't realize what he has and seems oblivious to the power of branding in our era -- always crying poverty and "it's a bad economy" while doing quite well -- but he's 91 and I guess I can't fault him for it. But if he'd open his eyes he'd see that the Bills perform remarkably well given the terrible team he fields. If this team was any good -- a consistent playoff team -- we'd be talking about 65K season tickets with an average price of around $65. But he doesn't get it, refusing to pay for what really makes a good team (coaching). I think your assessment will turn out to be the correct one. Rogers likely will buy the Bills and leave them in Orchard Park, at least until they get a feel of where best to put a NEW STADIUM. That location, of course, will depend so much on which side of the border it is as how much the municipality in which it is built will PAY TOWARDS THE COST! So, to summarize: Bills suck until Ralph's demise; Rogers buys from the family; most home games stay in O.P.; a new stadium is built somewhere close to the border (for Toronto fans). They'll still be the Buffalo Bills,for the sake of branding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billfan63 Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 I will keep it short and not so sweet. Dallas Cowboys - Seating capacity 112,000 (including standing area) at an average ticket price of $160 (Wow!). This works out to $17,920,000 per game just in ticket sales. Buffalo Bills - Seating capacity 73,967 at an average ticket price of $51 This works out to $3,772,317 per game just in ticket sales. We will ignore luxury box income, concession, and parking income (which all favor Dallas VERY heavily) for the sake of simplicity. But you get the point. So, because we are in the era of profit sharing in the NFL, Jimmy Jones in particular, but most NFL owners get boned in a major way when playing the Bills. The Cheatriats, with the second highest per ticket price in the NFL, have to suffer with this every year. So, if the NFL owners had a choice to say, leave the Bills in a small, semi-destitute market like Buffalo and keep the price structure the same. Or have them go somewhere that the ticket prices could double (along with the parking etc.). What do you think they would do? What would you do if you were in their shoes? That has been true for quite some time. But now it is about to get even more interesting. No salary cap. So Jimmy Jones and the other big market owners can throw gobs of cash at the top players to stack their teams. Think Steinbrenner but for football. What are the small market teams going to do? You got it, bend over. I have no crystal ball and I certainly am not a NFL owner and do not claim to have any inside information. And of course I could be all wrong. But looking at it from a business/economic viewpoint, this is how the numbers add up for me. As with the "True fans only" thread, please serious responses only. No reason for "real" fans to tell me I suck for bringing this up. I already know how you feel about the whole Bills Moving subject. Thanks. The porcelain guy who sits in the Cowboys owners box is named Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delete This Account Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Does anyone doubt that the Rogers group when negotiating the current Bills deal told Ralph Wilson how much they would be willing to pay for his franchise when it was on the block? Ralph probably drooled over himself when the stupendous figure was mentioned. No one can predict where the Bills are going to be when it is auctioned off. But my view is that it will be located in Toronto. Forget about appealing to Ralph's sentimental side. It doesn't exist, it has never existed. It's just business. Nothing personal. from what i know, if that question was asked, i think the negotiations would have ended right there. that is not a subject Mr. Wilson is willing to talk about. and note, when I said "region," i meant the NFL desires having a franchise in this "region," preferrably Buffalo-Toronto and not merely Toronto. jw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yall Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 The OP puts to much weight into the notion that this market either cannot or will not support increased ticket prices. Raising the average ticket cost by $15 would increase the per game revenue significantly, while still keeping the price point within a range that could be supported in this market. Plus, factor in the debt load as referenced by other posters, and you have a formula for a profitable team. Hell - they are in the top 10 in terms of profitability right now aren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judman Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Don't forget, Dallas has one hell of a mortgage payment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted October 16, 2009 Author Share Posted October 16, 2009 The OP puts to much weight into the notion that this market either cannot or will not support increased ticket prices. Raising the average ticket cost by $15 would increase the per game revenue significantly, while still keeping the price point within a range that could be supported in this market. Would the Buffalo market support a 30% or more increase? Not with the current state of the team, but with a decent team, maybe I suppose. But if the market would bear such an increase, wouldn't the Bills have already done it? Brandon for all his suckage as a GM, is a good marketing guy. And good marketing guys generally don't pass up opportunities to make 30% more gate without good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorontoBuffalos Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 I think the near term issue will be what happens after RW. The Bills currently are profitable, but one of the reasons is that the team has little or no debt to service. If the Bills are sold, any purchaser will need to borrow hundreds of millions of dollars, and paying that debt service will make the Bills unprofitable with their current economics in terms of ticket sales, luxury boxes and other sources of income. This is dead on accurate and the reason the bills will move to TO or LA... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorontoBuffalos Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 There is also the economic cost of buying a team for close to $1b, building a stadium for close to $1b, and paying a relocation fee on top of that. There's not many people who have that kind of money. Is there really a market out there that will re-coup the $1b+ over just keeping the Bills in Buffalo? Could play in the skydome... Im sure LA has some stadiums... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yall Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Would the Buffalo market support a 30% or more increase? Not with the current state of the team, but with a decent team, maybe I suppose. But if the market would bear such an increase, wouldn't the Bills have already done it? Brandon for all his suckage as a GM, is a good marketing guy. And good marketing guys generally don't pass up opportunities to make 30% more gate without good reason. For starters, I didn't suggest it should be done overnight. But given that something as simple as signing a well known player helped push season ticket sales to their 3rd highest ever total, I would think the fans could eat 5-10% a year without so much as a whimper. I think too much credit is given to Brandon for his supposed marketing skills. You could announce a new Bills bumper sticker and half the county will show up at the field house. The bottom line is this market supports the team quite well when you compare the financials of other teams relative to the Bills. Will it continue if the team keeps sucking? Maybe not. But right now the healthy combination of fandom and fear are keeping the franchise well into the black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delete This Account Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Could play in the skydome... Im sure LA has some stadiums... the rogers center is not an option for a full nfl season. another facility needs to be built. LA has no current stadium equipped for a franchise, either. another facility needs to be built. the cost, then, of relocating a team to either city doubles, unless taxpayers are willing to share the load on building a stadium. jw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Could play in the skydome... Im sure LA has some stadiums... Toronto is the only viable option I see for a Bills relocation. But there are obstacles like the political ramifications of killing the CFL, the deceased Rogers had the financial wherewithal to put together a bid, but do his heirs? (NFL does not allow corporate ownership and the majority owner I believe must own more than 50%). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorontoBuffalos Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Having just spent a weekend (for a conference) in Toronto in early September during which I attended a couple of Jays/Yanks games, I have to say, the overall vibe is distinctly underwhelming: crappy physical plant, not that many seats, and truly disinterested fans. Toronto is a hockey town, and I suspect that IF the Bills ended doing a 50/50 split with Toronto under new ownership, within ten years the games would be back in Buffalo, a la GB/Milwaukee. Plus you have the whole resentment-of-the-US factor vis-a-vis the Argos (a position I respect, btw). What people seem to forget is that 21st century capitalism is all about branding, and part of branding is hawking "authenticity" -- i.e., tradition and origins (i.e., an "original" AFL franchice). I strongly suspect that Toronto would be a bust if it happened, and it's also why I think that teams that can't play the authenticity card as well as the Bills -- Jax, for one -- are far more likely to move. It's sad that the owner in Buffalo doesn't realize what he has and seems oblivious to the power of branding in our era -- always crying poverty and "it's a bad economy" while doing quite well -- but he's 91 and I guess I can't fault him for it. But if he'd open his eyes he'd see that the Bills perform remarkably well given the terrible team he fields. If this team was any good -- a consistent playoff team -- we'd be talking about 65K season tickets with an average price of around $65. But he doesn't get it, refusing to pay for what really makes a good team (coaching). Keep in mind if we spent to the cap (20-30M more this year) and paid a coach 3M more a year plus better assistants (higher salaries) the bills would be in the negetive... Ralph is right... he cant compete... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted October 16, 2009 Author Share Posted October 16, 2009 LA has no current stadium equipped for a franchise, either. another facility needs to be built. Apparently this is already being addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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