Props for Greg Williams

[Hardy Pyle]

http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20041112-120121-1858r.htm

[Corp000085]

has he reached that all elusive all time sack record yet?

[Fezmid]

He'll be head coach in Washington once Gibbs retires.

 

I wish him lots of success; I still feel that he was run out of town unfairly. Not that I don't like MM, but we had the same results with MM as we did with GW until WM came in.

 

Also interesting to note -- last week, the announcers said that WM told them that he was glad that GW held him out late last year. He said that he wanted to play, but GW said he should wait to get stronger in the mind and body. WM didn't agree at the time, but this year he's glad that GW made him sit.

 

CW

[ndmanley]

http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20041112-120121-1858r.htm

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Who wrote this article? His agent? He isn't going anywhere because no one will want him (not to mention he is making big dollars as a coordinator). He is a very good coordinator. That is it. Wade Phillips is also doing a very good job in SD. Regardless, neither of these guys, has the ability to be a successful head coach.

 

People can point to Belichick and say that people are better the second time. But for every Belichick there is your Wannstedt.

[Fezmid]

Who wrote this article?  His agent?  He isn't going anywhere because no one will want him (not to mention he is making big dollars as a coordinator).  He is a very good coordinator.  That is it.  Wade Phillips is also doing a very good job in SD.  Regardless, neither of these guys, has the ability to be a successful head coach. 

 

People can point to Belichick and say that people are better the second time.  But for every Belichick there is your Wannstedt.

115524[/snapback]

 

Say what you want about Wanny, but the guy did have a winning record almost every year he was there.

 

CW

[Nanker]

Greg had a much longer learning curve than MM seems to have.

 

I fault him mostly for the assistants he brought here.

They were NO help at all. They were busy digging his grave while he was trying to figure out how to be a head coach. That and TD tearing down the house (but we're NOT REBUILDING mind you) while the chemestry remained a mystery and the record went south. The results were pathetic.

 

The fact that he interviewed well and blew TD (away) so the story goes with his organization and list of assistants speaks volumes about both men. Why Whitey was sooooo impressed with a list of Division III and HS coaches is beyond me. GW probably pulled it from the Internet anyway. So the guy popped a couple of black beauties he got from Kearse and was able to talk non-stop for eighteen hours. Was it really that impressive, I ask?

 

If the roles were reversed at this point in time (relatively speaking), I don't think Greggo would be having the team on the edge of turning the corner in a positive direction right now. I think he and his high school coaches would have this team at 1-7 and on their way to 3-13.

 

GW knew nothing about offense and proved it week in and week out. He brought in guys that knew nothing about offense and proved it equally as well.

 

You're probably right that he'll replace JG as HC in DC. I don't wish him ill, but I don't wish him particularly well either.

[BF_in_Indiana]

He'll be head coach in Washington once Gibbs retires.

 

I wish him lots of success; I still feel that he was run out of town unfairly.  Not that I don't like MM, but we had the same results with MM as we did with GW until WM came in.

 

Also interesting to note -- last week, the announcers said that WM told them that he was glad that GW held him out late last year.  He said that he wanted to play, but GW said he should wait to get stronger in the mind and body.  WM didn't agree at the time, but this year he's glad that GW made him sit.

 

CW

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What was unfair about the way he was run out of town? His record was 17-31. If you don't count the first year he was 14-18. That's hardly worthy of a contract extension. You want to hear someone that got run out of town unfairly? Wade Phillips. He was 29-19 with two playoff trips. What happened to him was unfair. What happened to Williams is EXACTLY what should have happened to him.

 

You know the difference between the results of GW and MM? Mike is in his first season as head coach and even at 3-5 looks like he knows more about what's going on then Williams EVER did.

 

I think those were nice comments by Willis towards Williams, but in reality everyone knew Willis couldn't play last year. What would WILLIAMS have gained by throwing Willis out there when he couldn't play? Nothing. I will grant you that he had Willis and his best interest in mind, but also his own.

[UHSLA]

He wasn't the problem here - it was Gilbride. I'm not suprised he's doing well elsewhere sans Gilbride.

[Guest the coach]

How about some props for Dick Lebeau in Pittsburgh?

 

The Bills could still use the defensive expertise of Williams and Lebeau!

[Mile High]

He wasn't the problem here - it was Gilbride.  I'm not suprised he's doing well elsewhere sans Gilbride.

115548[/snapback]

You're 100% right. But, he should've stepped in and said something to KG about the play calling. That was GW biggest mistake last year.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

He wasn't the problem here - it was Gilbride.  I'm not suprised he's doing well elsewhere sans Gilbride.

115548[/snapback]

 

 

The learning experience for me this off-season was learning that KG apparently was not a TD man (as I had assumed given their past working together), but that apparently TD had advocated hiring another guy who had worked for him Tom Clements as OC, and it was GW who pushed for the hiring of Kevin Killdrive.

 

This story could just be the revisionist history of the folks who still have jobs with the Bills, but a course of events where it was GW who pushed for KG and who got the job over TD's choice actually makes a lot of sense of what happened in retrospect.

 

Faulting GW primarily for hiring KG does not let TD off the hook since one of the biggest jobs of a GM is to hire a winning HC and to help and make sure that the HC has the people around him to win. TD did not do that and deserves to be viewed as having failed at a major aspect of his job because of it. Specifically:

 

1. TD hired GW who had great DC chops with TN but was not ready for primetime as an HC. Worse yet, he hired GW and passed on John Fox who went to the SB with Carolina and Marvin Lewis who revived the Bungles in his first season as HC. Even with less stellar records for both these two this year, they still are better performers and choices than GW as HC.

 

2. TD struck me as having this passive-aggressive style of managing his HC hire in that he passively allowed his HC to make his own bed as long as the HC bore the blame for failing and only aggressively worked to rein in his HC when he transgressed into contract areas (the Larry Centers cut soon after GW publicly said Centers would be a Bill as long as he wanted to). In general this seem motivated by him pledging never again to have a guy he hired (Cowher) fire him.

 

3 TD seemed to know GW was not up to the job of hiring and managing good lieutenants. This was obvious after GW hired inexperienced guys his first time around and Sheppard proved not up to the job at all, his buddy (whose name I forget) was pretty spotty managing ST and Gray seemed to produce for about 3/4 of the game before his team went south.

 

TD played whatever role he played in the ouster of Sheppard, but unfortunately did not insist on his choice for OC over Killdrive. He did address the defensive woes by bringing in his buddy LeBeau but saved face for GW by keeping Gray on board. In GW's third season, TD got former OC buddy Les Steckel in, but never got GW to use this leverage to force KG to diversify his game.

 

The whole thing was maddening.

 

At any rate all is well that ends well as the Bills ship of state seems to be moving in the right direction.

 

1. Clements is finally in under MM and they are employing an O which seems to be right thing to do with the personnel TD acquired (not counting on Bledsoe to win games and relying more and more on WM.

2. Gray actually seems to be performing even better now that he is out from under the GW thumb. The GW/Gray defense seemed to rely too much on scheme and has-been players like Robinson at LB and Jenkins at S. Gray seems to have mastered LeBeau's run blitz as seen by his playcalling last year and this year with this scheme. Further, he seems to have mastered it strategically as for several games in a row he has designed and implemented changes at half time which have simply shut down what Miami, the Ravens, the Cards and the Jets were doing well in the 1st half.

3, ST performance under April has improved by leaps and bounds.

 

I like what I see so far, but all in all GW deserves props as a DC, but condemnation as an HC.

[San-O]

http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20041112-120121-1858r.htm

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Yeah, props to him for giving us three years of STUPID football and the

famous "we just need to execute better" crap.

 

Thanks Gregg.

 

[BF_in_Indiana]

For everyone saying it was his Assistants. I just have to ask one thing.

 

Who hired them?

 

You will only be as good as the people you put around you.

[The Jokeman]

For everyone saying it was his Assistants.  I just have to ask one thing.

 

Who hired them?

 

You will only be as good as the people you put around you.

115694[/snapback]

I truely think Donahoe all along wanted Marvin Lewis, that's why he he waited until after the Super Bowl to name his head coach. Yet I think Lewis failed him in either in the interview process and/or his wife commenting not wanting to move here due to the school situation. As a result think he went with Williams. I'll admit Gregg made some mistakes with his assistants yet being Gregg was the last HC hired, it's possible some of his first choices of assistants weren't all available due to taking jobs elsewhere.

 

I also think a lot of people are overly crtictical of his choices as most seem to forget a few things. I mean it looks like the choice of Jerry Gray was a good one. Steve Fairchild, our former RB coach, has the Rams as the 6th best offense in the NFL. Steve Kragthorpe, our former QB coach, finished 2nd last year in the NCAA voting for best head coach while at Tulsa, unfortunately for them they've struggled this season. These are some of the guys Gregg hired but most fans either forgot about or fail to acknowledge.

 

While Gregg wasn't my first choice of who to hire, mine was Dom Capers, I think he did fairly well considering all the circumstances, taking over a team taht was stripped of almost all of it's talent and then slowly rebuilt. Pat Williams and Eric Moulds are the only two remaining starters from the Wade Phillips era. I wish GWwell wherever his career may take him, except when he plays the Bills of course.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

I truely think Donahoe all along wanted Marvin Lewis, that's why he he waited until after the Super Bowl to name his head coach.  Yet I think Lewis failed him in either in the interview process and/or his wife commenting not wanting to move here due to the school situation. As a result think he went with Williams. I'll admit Gregg made some mistakes with his assistants yet being Gregg was the last HC hired, it's possible some of his first choices of assistants weren't all available due to taking jobs elsewhere.

 

I also think a lot of people are overly crtictical of his choices as most seem to forget a few things. I mean it looks like the choice of Jerry Gray was a good one. Steve Fairchild, our former RB coach, has the Rams as the 6th best offense in the NFL. Steve Kragthorpe, our former QB coach, finished 2nd last year in the NCAA voting for best head coach while at Tulsa, unfortunately for them they've struggled this season. These are some of the guys Gregg hired but most fans either forgot about or fail to acknowledge.

 

While Gregg wasn't my first choice of who to hire, mine was Dom Capers, I think he did fairly well considering all the circumstances, taking over a team taht was stripped of almost all of it's talent and then slowly rebuilt. Pat Williams and  Eric Moulds are the only two remaining starters from the Wade Phillips era. I wish GWwell wherever his career may take him, except when he plays the Bills of course.

115914[/snapback]

 

I wish GW well in any future endeavors also but:

 

1. I think on can legitimately be almosy wholly critical of his choice of co-ordinators in that: A Sheppard proved so not up to the job that even GW aceded to or pushed for his canning with a year left on his contract, B: Kevin Killdrive who replaced him was apparently GW's choice over Clements whom TD is publicly said to have advocated as a replacement OC. Killdrive as a bad choice as he only ran a productive O until opponents got enough film on it and BB laid out a template for stopping him. In the face of this Killdrive refused to adapt and GW refused to force him to adapt as we did things like pass 30+ consecutive times on 3rd and 2 or less. C. He hired one his old buds to run the ST which produced the best of the 3 units though that comparison isn't saying much and mismanagement of the coverage flat out cost us a game against the Jets when we allowed 2 returns for TDs on a daywhere the D actually stoned Curtis Martin and the O showed some productivity. The fact this unit actually improved to mediocre without any player changes is testimony to the problem being a poor plan being developed by the co-ordinator. D Gray has turned into a keeper and a great co-ordinator though one wonders how his units produced so poorly under GW's shared guidance with Grau and suddenly became one of the better defenses in the league when Gray co-ordinated with LeBeau.

 

2. GW's day of game management (a primary job requirement after hiring good co-ordinators) was simply awful has he had a horrible record with ref challenges, several blatant cases of lousy clock management and game decisions (who can ever forget the punt in the oppnents territory at the edge of FG range that yielded the team about a dozen yards and we lost a close one.

 

3. He said a hallmark of his teams would be discipline and yet he was repetitively HC of some of the most penalized teams in the league with no successf management attempts to control this problem.

 

4. He invested in showmanship which at best seemed laughable such as: A. The "opportunity laps" taken by players who made mistakes in practice which were at best opportunity 3/4 of a lap and came to be taken as a welcome break from coaching scrutiny when a player wanted a blow, B. The comedic air horn to wake up the players, C. Players fairly routinely questioning some of edicts such as when he strongly recommended both vet and rookie players attend voluntary workouts and Larry Centers basically told him to go jump as he had deonstrated as a vet that he came to camp ready to go without supervision. Centers was also on record with Empire saying that the camp which GW highlighted as being tough was actually easier than many camps he had attended. In addition, Winfield was publicly on record in SHOUT complaining hat the starters got more work and reps even in a Wade Phillips camp. D. He rediculously said that his first Bills team which finished 3-13 was going to compete for the playoffs. He either completely sucked at assessment or assessed our talent properly but failed to take an approach like saying we would be known as the hardest working team in football regardless of the record (it worked for the Sabres as a marketing tool to the fans and a motivational tool for the players. Instead his all or nothing rants simply left the fans and the players with nothing.

 

And so on and so on. GW simply was not ready for primetime as an HC. I certainly rooted for his early, was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt even after the poor performance and idiotic statements of his first year, but certainly advocating canning the guy even after the improvements of his second year because it was clear to me that if the Bills did the job in his third year it was going to be in spite of him and not because of him.

 

GW deserves props for being a great DC in TN and DC but really deserves great disdain for his work as an HC here.

[kota]

Yeah whatever GW money talks

[Fezmid]

as we did things like pass 30+ consecutive times on 3rd and 2 or less.

 

Is this falsehood still floating around in people's minds? Amazing what one bad newspaper writer can do...

 

When this stat first came out, I didn't believe it. So I researched every play that the Bills ran. It's not even CLOSE to being true. In fact, Buffalo was right around the league average for run vs pass on 3rd and less than 2. They did not pass the ball every time like the article wanted people to believe. Shoddy journalism at its best and more reason to research things yourself instead of trusting a newspaper.

 

As for your other comments -- I'm torn. Do you want a head coach to come out and say, "We're going to suck this year, no chance of even getting to .500. Sorry guys?" I think people would've been much more upset about that.

 

Also, notice that the players running their mouths are no longer here. Coincidence? I don't think it is, and I don't think that's GWs fault.

 

GW also wanted the team to be very fan-focused (probably because he knew we'd be 3-13 in the first year), forcing players to sign autographs during camp, etc.

 

Overall, I just don't think he was as bad as people are making him out to be. That said, he couldn't stay after year three due to the fans and media bashing him (frequently without reason, as the "30 passes on 3rd and 2 or less" falsehood that was printed in the paper).

 

CW

[Kelly the Dog]

The bad stat was 3rd and 3, not 3rd and 2 as people like to post, and you're right, the other teams also think of 3rd and 3 as a passing down as much as a running down. The real problem was other teams ran play action on third and short, or were in running formations. Killdrive used to split Sam Gash out, or have 5 wide, or not even bother to look like it was going to be a run. And over the course of the year, we did throw way too much on 3rd and 1 and 3rd and 2 and 3rd and 3.

[Lori]

You know the difference between the results of GW and MM?  Mike is in his first season as head coach and even at 3-5 looks like he knows more about what's going on then Williams EVER did.

115547[/snapback]

 

That's it in a nutshell. It looks like Mularkey is willing to learn from his mistakes; I never got that impression from GW.

 

For example: when MM replaced Coy Wire in the middle of the first New England game, was there any doubt in your mind Wire wouldn't be starting at SS the following week? Compare that to how Gregg handled Eddie Robinson - everyone knew he was done, and there were other guys GW could have tried at that spot (including Greg Favors, now a starter in Jacksonville). But the only game Robinson didn't start that year was Cincinnati - the final game of the season - when the Bills opened up in a dime D.

 

Another example: penalties. Williams had his opportunity laps, he talked about fixing the problem... but every single year he was here, the team ended up with over 100 penalties. And other than having them run laps, did he really do anything about solving the problem?

Now, considering the Bills had 32 penalties after only four games this season, they'll probably end up in triple digits again. But instead of giving the stock "we just have to stop doing that" answer, Mularkey looked at how the Jets are so successful at keeping their penalty totals down, and decided to try what they're doing.

 

MM's still a rookie, and he'll make mistakes... but I haven't seen him keep making the same mistakes. I like that.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

Is this falsehood still floating around in people's minds?  Amazing what one bad newspaper writer can do...

 

When this stat first came out, I didn't believe it.  So I researched every play that the Bills ran.  It's not even CLOSE to being true.  In fact, Buffalo was right around the league average for run vs pass on 3rd and less than 2.  They did not pass the ball every time like the article wanted people to believe.  Shoddy journalism at its best and more reason to research things yourself instead of trusting a newspaper.

 

As for your other comments -- I'm torn.  Do you want a head coach to come out and say, "We're going to suck this year, no chance of even getting to .500.  Sorry guys?"  I think people would've been much more upset about that.

 

Also, notice that the players running their mouths are no longer here.  Coincidence?  I don't think it is, and I don't think that's GWs fault.

 

GW also wanted the team to be very fan-focused (probably because he knew we'd be 3-13 in the first year), forcing players to sign autographs during camp, etc.

 

Overall, I just don't think he was as bad as people are making him out to be.  That said, he couldn't stay after year three due to the fans and media bashing him (frequently without reason, as the "30 passes on 3rd and 2 or less" falsehood that was printed in the paper).

 

CW

116056[/snapback]

 

 

Thanks for researching the 3rd and 2 or less point. I also found it hard to believe, but this conventional wisdom (CW?) became so accepted that it seemed to have some truth to it as no one was challenging this point as it would take some basic but time consuming research to do it and it appears you have done that.

 

The thing which has made me willing to accept it as truth was actually a running play on 3rd and 2 or less that the Bills "finally" ran after I heard this stat and Travis Henry (of all people) busted it for what may have been the longest run of his career getting over 40 yards.

 

I can see where there may be some wiggle room in your research as someone pointed out that 30+ in a row can be found by looking at 3rd and 3 or less. He correctly points out that 3 yards is seen by most teams as a passing down so not running is not insane.

 

Nevertheless, what would be insane is doing this 30 times in a row on 3 yards or less, because this stat would strongly imply running a double digit number of times in a row on 2 and less (even if the 30+ number is not true for 2 and less) and it would imply the team never ran even once a change-up against their tendency run at 3 and less.

 

I will probably stop using this stat until further data is produced. However, do you have your collected results. Even mentioning anecdotely a few plays where the Bills ran on 3rd and 2 or a few change-ups where Killdrive ran on 3rd and 3 would put the conventional wisdom to rest.

[Fezmid]

I will probably stop using this stat until further data is produced.  However, do you have your collected results. Even mentioning anecdotely a few plays where the Bills ran on 3rd and 2 or a few change-ups where Killdrive ran on 3rd and 3 would put the conventional wisdom to rest.

116138[/snapback]

 

I did, but it was lost when the board died You can look at NFL.com and look at the play by play for each Bills game. That's what I did. Took me around an hour to get the complete numbers for the Bills and a few other teams (to compare the Bills stats with).

 

Don't suppose anyone here found the research so compelling that they saved my message on their local drive, huh?

CW

[GG]

Nof offense to Greggo, but did you notice his defense's performance against teams that can score?

 

And fighting about passing on 3rd & 2 vs 3rd and 3 is missing the forest that a smashmouth power running team would consistently pass on 3rd and 1. That was the travesty. That situation is a virtual gimme for successful teams, and a regular inability to pick up a 3rd and 1, is a hallmark of a loser.

[Golden Wheels]

What does it say about the guy when he is the head coach in Buffalo for several years and the fans *still* can't spell his name right.

 

How good does his defense look today against the mighty Bengals?

[The Jokeman]

What does it say about the guy when he is the head coach in Buffalo for several years and the fans *still* can't spell his name right.

 

How good does his defense look today against the mighty Bengals?

116419[/snapback]

Better then Cotrell's defense is looking against the Packers. Infact Aikman was just ripping Antoine Winfield for missing not making a tackle in the open field.