Billistic Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 Those poor guys...they're either as bad as Reyes or as good as Gandy. Either way, if they end up playing like that we are in trouble. I do see Wood being a Pro Bowler in 2-3 years...Hangartner and Levitre I'm not too sure on. Do the names John Guy and Tom Modrak ring any bells? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricojes Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Does the O-line need experience to win in the NFL? I guess that's the big big question. I dug up some stats on the Patsie's to compare: In 2000, NE's starting line was: LT Bruce Armstrong - yrs experience 13 LG Joe Andruzzi - yrs experience 2 C Damien Woody - yrs experience 1 RG Sale Isaia - yrs experience 4 RT Grant Williams - yrs experience 4 They were 5 - 11. A young line anchored by a 13 year vet, obviously not a good season. In 2001 LT Matt Light - rookie LG Mike Compton - yrs experience 8 C Damien Woody - yrs experience 2 RG Joe Andruzzi - yrs experience 3 RT Greg Randall - yrs experience 1 11 - 5 and won the SB (B@st@rds!!!). That was a pretty young line with only 2 starters returning from the previous year and one changing positions. 2002 LT Matt Light - yrs experience 1 LG Mike Compton - yrs experience 9 C Damien Woody - yrs experience 3 RG Joe Andruzzi - yrs experience 4 RT Kenyatta Jones - yrs experience 1 9- 7 won division 2003 LT Matt Light - yrs experience 2 LG Damien Woody - yrs experience 4 C Dan Koppen - Rookie RG Joe Andruzzi - yrs experience 5 RT Tom Ashworth - yrs experience 1 14-2 won SB (B@st@rds!) Another young line, although 3 returning starters with one changing positions. 2004 LT Matt Light - yrs experience 3 LG Joe Andruzzi - yrs experience 6 C Dan Koppen - yrs experience 1 RG Steve Neal - yrs experience 2 RT Brandon Gorin - yrs experience 1 14-2 won SB (B@st@rds!). 3 returning starters with one changing positions and still very young. 2005 LT Nick Kaczur - Rookie LG Longan Mankins - Rookie C Dan Koppen - yrs experience 2 RG Steve Neal - yrs experience 3 RT Tom Ashworth - yrs experience 3 10-6 won division. 2 Rookies in the line up, this was a very young line, but they won 10 games! That's about all I can stomach at the moment, but you get the idea. NE has been very successful with non experienced lines. Obviously it helps to have Brady, but they still needed to block for him. Do I think Buffalo can be successful? I really don't know unfortunately, this year will be tough IMO. But anything can happen and I like the drafted O-lineman, so I am being cautiously optimistic going into this season. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrFishfinder Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Trent Edwards got sacked only one time for every 16 drop backs last season. The Bills yards per rush was pedestrian. The Bills lost (in part) because their receivers couldn't get open. The O-line didn't kill the Bills. It wasn't great, but it wasn't killer. Neither McNally nor Kugler could make All Pros out of the bunch, but they were serviceable (especially compared to what came before). So now the Bills totally uprooted the O-line, and replaced it with WHAT? Who knows? So now the Bills seem to have a receiving corps, but why should I believe the O-line will perform against the AFC East monster 3-4s? Why should I believe in Sean Kugler? Pass the Kool Aid. Why don't you do what you you will ultimately end up doing anyway........watch 'em & see? Then you can either A) be happy they're better than you thought, or B) throw stuff at the TV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billistic Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 Does the O-line need experience to win in the NFL? I guess that's the big big question. I dug up some stats on the Patsie's to compare: Nice work! Belichick is an acknowledge master in "making the pieces fit together". He takes cast offs like Junior Seau and Randy Moss, and melds them into contenders. On the other hand, the Bills have DICK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricojes Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Nice work! Belichick is an acknowledge master in "making the pieces fit together". He takes cast offs like Junior Seau and Randy Moss, and melds them into contenders. On the other hand, the Bills have DICK. Yeah, unfortunately I am well aware of that. But just looking at the line and no other circumstances, it gives me some hope! Factoring in coaching and, well, no so much.... Junior Seau and Randy Moss may not be the best examples of "making the pieces fit", but there are many others for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billistic Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 Why don't you do what you you will ultimately end up doing anyway........watch 'em & see? Then you can either A) be happy they're better than you thought, or B) throw stuff at the TV. Why don't we all hold our breath and turn blue until 7:00 PM on 9/14? The human mind is curious, creative and wants to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billistic Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 Yeah, unfortunately I am well aware of that. But just looking at the line and no other circumstances, it gives me some hope! Factoring in coaching and, well, no so much.... Junior Seau and Randy Moss may not be the best examples of "making the pieces fit", but there are many others for sure. I believe Randy Moss got way more "Terrell Owens" than TO, and which other team tried to pick up Seau's contract besides the Patriots? If you don't think turning Randy Moss into a team player who adjusts his contract demands to benefit the Patriots team is making pieces fit, I doubt I can help... Ist: demonized by the Raider organization 2nd: sets every record with the Patriots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsGuyInMalta Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 I believe Randy Moss got way more "Terrell Owens" than TO, and which other team tried to pick up Seau's contract besides the Patriots? If you don't think turning Randy Moss into a team player who adjusts his contract demands to benefit the Patriots team is making pieces fit, I doubt I can help... Ist: demonized by the Raider organization 2nd: sets every record with the Patriots Say what you will about TO, but he never pushed a cop on the hood of his car for a quarter mile. At least until the ratings on his TV show start to slip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billistic Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 Say what you will about TO, but he never pushed a cop on the hood of his car for a quarter mile. At least until the ratings on his TV show start to slip. That's probably relevant somewhere in the universe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartacus Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 now if you could move the NE OL coach to Buffalo - you might have a chance to be successful. unfortunately the Bills have a bad OL coach who severely underperformed with a vet Ol last year. why anyone thinks he can quickly mold 2 rookies and 5 guys playing new positions into a cohesive unit is pretty optimistic. Does the O-line need experience to win in the NFL? I guess that's the big big question. I dug up some stats on the Patsie's to compare: In 2000, NE's starting line was: LT Bruce Armstrong - yrs experience 13 LG Joe Andruzzi - yrs experience 2 C Damien Woody - yrs experience 1 RG Sale Isaia - yrs experience 4 RT Grant Williams - yrs experience 4 They were 5 - 11. A young line anchored by a 13 year vet, obviously not a good season. In 2001 LT Matt Light - rookie LG Mike Compton - yrs experience 8 C Damien Woody - yrs experience 2 RG Joe Andruzzi - yrs experience 3 RT Greg Randall - yrs experience 1 11 - 5 and won the SB (B@st@rds!!!). That was a pretty young line with only 2 starters returning from the previous year and one changing positions. 2002 LT Matt Light - yrs experience 1 LG Mike Compton - yrs experience 9 C Damien Woody - yrs experience 3 RG Joe Andruzzi - yrs experience 4 RT Kenyatta Jones - yrs experience 1 9- 7 won division 2003 LT Matt Light - yrs experience 2 LG Damien Woody - yrs experience 4 C Dan Koppen - Rookie RG Joe Andruzzi - yrs experience 5 RT Tom Ashworth - yrs experience 1 14-2 won SB (B@st@rds!) Another young line, although 3 returning starters with one changing positions. 2004 LT Matt Light - yrs experience 3 LG Joe Andruzzi - yrs experience 6 C Dan Koppen - yrs experience 1 RG Steve Neal - yrs experience 2 RT Brandon Gorin - yrs experience 1 14-2 won SB (B@st@rds!). 3 returning starters with one changing positions and still very young. 2005 LT Nick Kaczur - Rookie LG Longan Mankins - Rookie C Dan Koppen - yrs experience 2 RG Steve Neal - yrs experience 3 RT Tom Ashworth - yrs experience 3 10-6 won division. 2 Rookies in the line up, this was a very young line, but they won 10 games! That's about all I can stomach at the moment, but you get the idea. NE has been very successful with non experienced lines. Obviously it helps to have Brady, but they still needed to block for him. Do I think Buffalo can be successful? I really don't know unfortunately, this year will be tough IMO. But anything can happen and I like the drafted O-lineman, so I am being cautiously optimistic going into this season. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 It was uprooted and placed with guys with attitude and mean streaks...... Similar claims were made about every offensive lineman that has been in and out of that locker room for the last 9 years. Unfortunately, saying it is so does not make it so. All we really have with regard to this line is hope. In fact, the objective realities are, at least for this year, pretty depressing to contemplate. We have a RT who no one has ever thought shuould play LT now playing LT. We have a RG who was a decent if not great RG moving to RT. We have a career non-starter starting at C and a couple of rookies at both Guard spots. Could all 5 of those gambles work? I suppose but I guess I just don't have faith that this coaching staff is so good that they are going to go 5 for 5 on O-line personnel moves. 6 games in to the season, we will have some real evidence one way or the other. I am hoping we got lucky, we are overdue for some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornandRaised Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 lets look at last years line - Walker was OK and our best performer overall, Butler was ok as a pass blocker but was occasionally bull rushed and really struggled to get any movement in the rush game, Fowler and Preston were just below average athletes, Dockery had some talent but most of the time didn't seem to have his head in the game, wiffed on some important plays, Peters had immense talent but there are two common reactions to feeling underpaid, some say I'll work so hard they will have to give me a raise, others say screw this and start doing the minimum to avoid being fired and steal office supplies, Peters was the latter. Our new line? lets see, well Hangartner is better than Fowler or Preston, Rookie guards have a history of playing pretty well, but at OT? make a list of all the starting LTs and RTs and put Walker and Butler where you think they fit, the result is not pretty- you going to keep in TEs to block? teams will just send more pass rushers or have double coverage on both wide-outs. I still don't understand the logic of moving Walker to left tackle, why down grade two positions when you could have just screwed up one. My big problem with the O-line the last 6 years will be highlighted with a question. When was the last time the Bills were first and goal on the 3 yard line and you had complete confidence they would punch it in with the run? or 3rd and 1 from anywhere on the field? or 4th and inches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGB Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Similar claims were made about every offensive lineman that has been in and out of that locker room for the last 9 years. Unfortunately, saying it is so does not make it so. All we really have with regard to this line is hope. In fact, the objective realities are, at least for this year, pretty depressing to contemplate. We have a RT who no one has ever thought shuould play LT now playing LT. We have a RG who was a decent if not great RG moving to RT. We have a career non-starter starting at C and a couple of rookies at both Guard spots. Could all 5 of those gambles work? I suppose but I guess I just don't have faith that this coaching staff is so good that they are going to go 5 for 5 on O-line personnel moves. 6 games in to the season, we will have some real evidence one way or the other. I am hoping we got lucky, we are overdue for some. 6 straight seasons of 25th or lower ranked offense means that whatever the Bills have been trying has not worked. Playing musical OL chairs might not work either, but at least the Bills understand that there is a problem moving the ball and scoring - so they drafted some help. You are right about everything falling into place in time to win more than 7 games though. And what does that mean? If the Bills under DJ fail to reach 8 games in 2009, DJ will be gone and a new coach with a new staff and probably a new system will be installed (translation: rebuilding mode). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricojes Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I believe Randy Moss got way more "Terrell Owens" than TO, and which other team tried to pick up Seau's contract besides the Patriots? If you don't think turning Randy Moss into a team player who adjusts his contract demands to benefit the Patriots team is making pieces fit, I doubt I can help... Ist: demonized by the Raider organization 2nd: sets every record with the Patriots I absolutely do not think that Moss was a "making the pieces fit" player, and I am not looking for your help. Randy Moss is a great receiver who played for a bad team with bad QB's in Oakland. The Patriots, a good team with a great QB, picked him up and he put up incredible numbers as he did when he was with Minnesota, another good team with a good QB. So picking up Moss wasn't really a risky proposition for the Patsie's, he's always been a team player on good teams. As far as Seau, I don't know if anyone else tried to pick him up. I don't have that kind of inside information. But if it were me toward the end of my career, I would pick a team favored to win the SB over any other team. He was passed his prime with NE, but he was a great player in years past with a wealth of experience. He was like a coach on the field and big help to the NE Defense. Again, IMO he's was not a "making the pieces fit" player. With his experience and talent, he could play for any team in any system. There are many better examples of "making the pieces fit" players on those Patsie teams. I just don't believe these 2 are in that category. No offense man, don't take everything so personally... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Trent Edwards got sacked only one time for every 16 drop backs last season. The Bills yards per rush was pedestrian. The Bills lost (in part) because their receivers couldn't get open. The O-line didn't kill the Bills. It wasn't great, but it wasn't killer. Neither McNally nor Kugler could make All Pros out of the bunch, but they were serviceable (especially compared to what came before). So now the Bills totally uprooted the O-line, and replaced it with WHAT? Who knows? So now the Bills seem to have a receiving corps, but why should I believe the O-line will perform against the AFC East monster 3-4s? Why should I believe in Sean Kugler? Pass the Kool Aid. 20.5 of those sacks came from our supposedly "elite" left side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billistic Posted July 9, 2009 Author Share Posted July 9, 2009 20.5 of those sacks came from our supposedly "elite" left side. 20.5/38 = 54%, which doesn't seem so out of kilter, since most teams bring their top sacker from their left side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartacus Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 20.5 of those sacks came from our supposedly "elite" left side. not surprising since the Bills utilized max protect packages the least of any team in the league- which meant Peters was getting zero help with every tea's best pass rushers and blitzers. hate to see the carnage this year when Turk continues his failed schemes with lesser talent at the tackle spots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 not surprising since the Bills utilized max protect packages the least of any team in the league- which meant Peters was getting zero help with every tea's best pass rushers and blitzers. hate to see the carnage this year when Turk continues his failed schemes with lesser talent at the tackle spots. You're right and good point. We should have a TE stay in or a running back chip to help out a "pro bowl" $10 million LT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billistic Posted July 10, 2009 Author Share Posted July 10, 2009 You're right and good point. We should have a TE stay in or a running back chip to help out a "pro bowl" $10 million LT. What was the complaint when the Bills signed Walker from the Raiders? Wasn't it that he got such big money after giving up 10.5 sacks? How many sacks did the Eagles new zillion $ LT give up as a Bill in 2008 (in only 13 games)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Trent Edwards got sacked only one time for every 16 drop backs last season. The Bills yards per rush was pedestrian. The Bills lost (in part) because their receivers couldn't get open. The O-line didn't kill the Bills. It wasn't great, but it wasn't killer. Neither McNally nor Kugler could make All Pros out of the bunch, but they were serviceable (especially compared to what came before). So now the Bills totally uprooted the O-line, and replaced it with WHAT? Who knows? So now the Bills seem to have a receiving corps, but why should I believe the O-line will perform against the AFC East monster 3-4s? Why should I believe in Sean Kugler? Pass the Kool Aid. Well Dockery was slightly below average and very over paid. The combo of Fowler and Preston at center was ineffective. Butler the right guard is more suited to play right tackle. Their Pro Bowl LT wanted to be paid big after a sub par season. So the line played OK but had serious issues like ineffective play at LG and C and the play at the right side wasn't great. So what did they decide to do once they traded Peters they decided to build the O-line as a unit with 4 young guys that could play with each other for a long time and form a unit. Hangardner was signed to be the center before Peters left. They moved Butler to RT. Than they drafted two Guards One in the first round and another in the second to fill out the rest of the line. Than they put the RT over to LT as a stop gap at LT. Simply put they had to start somewhere and trying to build a line as a unit with 4 young guys in place that can play with each other for a long time is a good philosophy. Will it work this year unlikely as early on they will struggle but it will improve over the course of the season and next year and the year after they will form a solid unit much like the O-Line of the Giants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts