Swift Boat Founder contradicts on report

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he Navy task force overseeing John Kerry's swift boat squadron in Vietnam reported that his group of boats came under enemy fire during a March 13, 1969, incident that three decades later is being challenged by the Democratic presidential nominee's critics.

 

The March 18, 1969, weekly report from Task Force 115, which was located by The Associated Press during a search of Navy archives, is the latest document to surface that supports Kerry's description of an event for which he won a Bronze Star and a third Purple Heart.

 

The Task Force report twice mentions the incident five days earlier and both times calls it ``an enemy initiated firefight'' that included automatic weapons fire and underwater mines used against a group of five boats that included Kerry's.

 

Task Force 115 was commanded at the time by retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, the founder of the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which has been running ads challenging Kerry's account of the episode.

 

AP

 

No way does that report go in saying enemy fire and not have Hoffmann contradicting it in report if there was not fire. It appears this is entirely a political group unhappy with Kerry's politics and nothing to do with Vietnam. A shame and a disgrace by these veterans.

[Arondale]

No way does that report go in saying enemy fire and not have Hoffmann contradicting it in report if there was not fire.  It appears this is entirely a political group unhappy with Kerry's politics and nothing to do with Vietnam.  A shame and a disgrace by these veterans.

7445[/snapback]

 

I saw a bit on NBC news last night investigating the conflicting reports. They interviewed the one SBV, Thurow (sp), who is saying there was no enemy fire in that incident and Kerry was in no danger, nor was Rassman.

 

The piece really didn't come to a conclusion. The SBV was criticized because he got a bronze star for that very same fight, but he says he accepted because he thought it was because he pulled a couple guys out of the water after the mine went off. He supposedly is willing to give it back if a bronze star requires enemy fire.

 

Kerry's testimony was also criticized, since there is a report the day after assessing the condition of the boats that indicates Kerry's boat had no bullet holes or damage, which seems unlikely if it was as fierce a battle as Kerry claims. There was also a doctor who was quoted as saying Kerry's arm only had a bruise/contusion, and it was not bleeding or cut as Kerry claimed.

 

I don't think we will ever find the whole truth. I personally think Kerry should sign the Navy 180 (?) form that gives clearance for all his records to be open to the public, which he has yet to do. After all, Kerry was the one openly criticizing Bush to reveal all his military records. I have yet to hear Bush openly criticize Kerry.

 

I don't think this group is necessarily "unhappy with Kerry's politics". I think a lot of this stems from the hatred many Vietnam veterans have for Kerry and what he did upon returning from his 4 month tour. That, more than politics, is what is fueling these men to go this far.

 

All in all, I just hope the isse either resolves itself or goes away so people can hear about the real issues, not what happened 30 years ago.

[Alaska Darin]

I heard yesterday on ABC Radio News that only one boat had any bullet holes in it (three .30 caliber-which were explained as happening a couple of days before). If that report is true, I find it VERY hard to believe that they were under heavy automatic weapons fire and NOT one boat sustained any bullet damage.

 

Before anyone starts, I'm passing on what I heard. I still think this is pretty fuggin' stupid. Scratch that. REALLY fuggin' stupid.

[Mickey]

AP

 

No way does that report go in saying enemy fire and not have Hoffmann contradicting it in report if there was not fire.  It appears this is entirely a political group unhappy with Kerry's politics and nothing to do with Vietnam.  A shame and a disgrace by these veterans.

7445[/snapback]

 

Shame, shame, shame. These guys are bigger liars than I thought. I didn't know that a couple of these shills were awarded the Bronze Star themselves based on reports of the action they signed that said that there was indeed small arms fire. I guess their memories of the event now, 36 years later, are better than their memories were then immediatley after the event.

[DC Tom]

AP

 

No way does that report go in saying enemy fire and not have Hoffmann contradicting it in report if there was not fire.  It appears this is entirely a political group unhappy with Kerry's politics and nothing to do with Vietnam.  A shame and a disgrace by these veterans.

7445[/snapback]

 

I've been wondering all day why Kerry's campaign doesn't just point out that SVBT is contradicting the official version of events...and do they care to explain that inconsistency, or how the official report got falsified? I personally suspect in this case that reality and "the official version of reality" are two different things...but I doubt the average American is sharp enough to realize how common an occurrence that is.

 

At the very least, it's got to be a better strategy than continually shouting "It's Bush's fault!"

[Alaska Darin]

Shame, shame, shame.  These guys are bigger liars than I thought.  I didn't know that a couple of these shills were awarded the Bronze Star themselves based on reports of the action they signed that said that there was indeed small arms fire.  I guess their memories of the event now, 36 years later, are better than their memories were then immediatley after the event.

7493[/snapback]

Military officers lying to make themselves look better to superiors? That doesn't happen very often - especially when there are medals involved.

[IUBillsFan]

I've been wondering all day why Kerry's campaign doesn't just point out that SVBT is contradicting the official version of events...and do they care to explain that inconsistency, or how the official report got falsified?  I personally suspect in this case that reality and "the official version of reality" are two different things...but I doubt the average American is sharp enough to realize how common an occurrence that is. 

 

At the very least, it's got to be a better strategy than continually shouting "It's Bush's fault!"

7501[/snapback]

 

I keep thinking the same thing. He just needs to say the record supports me and that's it. By talking about he just keeps it in the news like with his guys going to see the President, who cares if Bush says the guys are bad just ignore it...

[MichFan]

For what it's worth, I saw O'Neil respond to accusations of bullet holes in the boats and he said the holes came from action they had faced the day before.

[gmac17]

Shame, shame, shame. These guys are bigger liars than I thought.

 

they may indeed be lying. I hope you are equally as bothered by Kerry who has admitted to lying about something that was "seared-seared in me"

[BRH]

For what it's worth, I saw O'Neil respond to accusations of bullet holes in the boats and he said the holes came from action they had faced the day before.

7526[/snapback]

Then you probably also saw O'Neill try to explain why 30 years ago he told Richard Nixon he "was in Cambodia" and yet is now saying he wasn't.

 

More and more of their stories get discredited and exposed for lies every day. It's actually kind of amusing to watch.

[BuffaloBorn1960]

Then you probably also saw O'Neill try to explain why 30 years ago he told Richard Nixon he "was in Cambodia" and yet is now saying he wasn't.

 

More and more of their stories get discredited and exposed for lies every day.  It's actually kind of amusing to watch.

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wait.... I can't resist... link please...

[BRH]

wait.... I can't resist... link please...

7669[/snapback]

 

Listen

 

Read

 

JOHNS: Behind the scenes, Kerry's aides were fighting the swift boat charges with unusual ferocity. They say they have evidence one of the top members of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is an outright liar.

 

The co-author of the book "Unfit for Command," former swift boat commander John O'Neill said Kerry made up a story about being in Cambodia beyond the legal borders of the Vietnam War in 1968.

 

O'Neill said no one could cross the border by river and he claimed in an audio tape that his publicist played to CNN that he, himself, had never been to Cambodia either. But in 1971, O'Neill said precisely the opposite to then President Richard Nixon.

 

O'NEILL: I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border on the water.

 

NIXON: In a swift boat?

 

O'NEILL: Yes, sir.

 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

 

JOHNS: Now, O'Neill may have an explanation for this but he has not returned CNN's calls. What does seem clear is that a top member of the swift boat group is now being held to the same standard of literal accuracy they've tried to impose on John Kerry.

 

"I was in Cambodia."

[Mickey]

wait.... I can't resist... link please...

7669[/snapback]

 

Here is one link to a CNN transcript on the story, O'Neill is caught saying this to President Nixon, on tape:

 

O'Neill said no one could cross the border by river and he claimed in an audio tape that his publicist played to CNN that he, himself, had never been to Cambodia either. But in 1971, O'Neill said precisely the opposite to then President Richard Nixon."

 

O'NEILL: I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border on the water.

 

NIXON: In a swift boat?

 

O'NEILL: Yes, sir.

 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

 

 

 

CNN Transcript

 

Here is another link where O-Neill was confronted with his own words:

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,130048,00.html

 

 

Apparently, when he said he was "in Cambodia" he obviously didn't mean that he was "in Cambodia". See, it all depends on what your definition of "in" is.

[BRH]

And from that Fox News link comes this bit of hilarity from Sean Hannity:

 

HANNITY: Yes. What you said to Richard Nixon was, "I worked along the border; I was in Cambodia."

 

And what you said in this interview, "Our patrol was about 50 miles from Cambodia."

 

Consistent statements.

This would be like me saying, "I grew up in Western New York, I lived in Buffalo. My home was about 50 miles from Buffalo."

[BRH]

Yet another liar has been exposed today, this time by a person who shares the SBVL's outrage against Kerry's anti-war activities (which, if we're all honest with ourselves and each other, is the only thing driving their smears on Kerry's war record. Well, that and the Bush campaign, of course):

 

Thurlow's account disputed by the man who saved him

 

Robert E. Lambert doesn’t plan to vote for John Kerry.

 

But the Eagle Point man challenges claims by a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth that there was no enemy fire aimed at the five swift boats, including the one commanded by Kerry, on March 13, 1969 on the Bay Hap River in the southern tip of what was then South Vietnam.

 

Lambert, now 64, was a crew member on swift boat PCF-51 that day. The boat was commanded by Navy Lt. Larry Thurlow, a now-retired officer who questions why Kerry was awarded a Bronze star for bravery and a third Purple Heart for the March 13 incident.

 

"He and another officer now say we weren’t under fire at that time," Lambert said Wednesday afternoon. "Well, I sure was under the impression we were."

[DC Tom]

Yet another liar has been exposed today...

7738[/snapback]

 

Are you talking about Lambert, or Thurlow?

 

And how do you know?

[KRC]

Are you talking about Lambert, or Thurlow?

 

And how do you know?

7741[/snapback]

 

The one telling the truth, is the one parroting your POV. Didn't you learn anything at PSAO school?

[BRH]

Are you talking about Lambert, or Thurlow?

 

And how do you know?

7741[/snapback]

I'm talking about Thurlow, whom Lambert saved.

 

When Thurlow does things like claim that the initials "K.J.W." on the after-action report mean that Kerry wrote the report (even though there are other after-action reports with those initials describing incidents at which Kerry wasn't even present), it's really difficult to consider him a credible witness. It's even more difficult to do so when Thurlow readily admits that the reason he is attacking Kerry's service record is because he's mad about what Kerry said after the war. I'd like a logic diagram on THAT Thurlow statement if anyone wants to provide it.

 

Given the facts, the records, and the testimony thus far, is there a fair jury out there that would believe Thurlow's account over Kerry's?

[_BiB_]

The one telling the truth, is the one parroting your POV. Didn't you learn anything at PSAO school?

7755[/snapback]

 

Whatever the truth is, it still remains that four months in Viet Nam is not a lot of reason to vote someone President. Don't give me the "he knows how it is" stevestojan either. Ain't gonna buy it. A REAL leader would have done his tour to take care of his people. A lot of folks talking about that crap both here and elsewhere have never spent a day in uniform, let alone heard a shot fired in anger.

[BuffaloBorn1960]

Here is one link to a CNN transcript on the story, O'Neill is caught saying this to President Nixon, on tape:

 

O'Neill said no one could cross the border by river and he claimed in an audio tape that his publicist played to CNN that he, himself, had never been to Cambodia either. But in 1971, O'Neill said precisely the opposite to then President Richard Nixon."

 

O'NEILL: I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border on the water.

 

NIXON: In a swift boat?

 

O'NEILL: Yes, sir.

 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CNN Transcript

 

Here is another link where O-Neill was confronted with his own words:

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,130048,00.html

Apparently, when he said he was "in Cambodia" he obviously didn't mean that he was "in Cambodia".  See, it all depends on what your definition of "in" is.  

7714[/snapback]

 

 

Did you read this transcript? or Did you pull an Alan....

 

Alan, read the next sentence....

[BadDad]

Are you talking about Lambert, or Thurlow?

 

And how do you know?

7741[/snapback]

 

I assume he is talking about Thurlow for two reasons. First, Thurlow was awarded the Bronze Star during that action the same as Kerry. Thurlow was supposedly thrown, knocked or fell overboard and was pulled out of the water by Lambert. According to the official report his boat was under fire but he turned it into the enemy and helped to rescue the memebers of the boat that hit the mine.

 

What has a lot of Vets upset is that by attacking Kerry for his service and questioning the validity of his medals, these guys have put into question the validity of medals earned by all Vets, from all wars. The fool Thurlow actually brought into question his own Bronze Star by his statements. If they were true why didn't he say so 35 years ago? All Officers involved in an action were present and reviewed after-action reports and he could have said at the time that there was no hostile fire. He and his reason is that he thought nobady would see the reports. When asked why he thought he got the medal he said that it was because he pulled guys out of the water and saved the boat. Of course Kerry did the exact same thing, but that escapes the idiot.

 

Regardless of what he says they both received the medal for the same thing. Either, they were under fire from the enemy which is supported by eyewitness accounts, and Naval records that have stood for 35 years. Or, they both pulled guys out of the water and saved the boats. Either way this guy cannot have his medal and deny Kerry his. The hipocracy is incredible.

[BRH]

Did you read this transcript?   or Did you pull an Alan....

 

Alan, read the next sentence....  

7774[/snapback]

He's on tape telling the President of the United States that he was in Cambodia.

 

And in the "next sentence" he admits that he was also "along the Cambodian border," when he's now telling everyone he never came within 50 miles of Cambodia.

 

He either lied to the President, or he's lying now. Or maybe he's just ... flip-flopped.

[DC Tom]

Given the facts, the records, and the testimony thus far, is there a fair jury out there that would believe Thurlow's account over Kerry's?

7761[/snapback]

 

But the argument isn't Thurlow's account over Kerry's, it was Thurlow's account over Lambert's.

 

And the facts of the case are...well, thin, at best. The testimony and official record of something that happened in Southeast Asia 35 years ago are not necessarily factual (any decent courtroom attorney knows that testimony is shaky at best. And any historian knows that "official reports" can very well bear only a tenuous relation to the facts.) Actually, if you take the partisan BS out of this whole issue, it's about par for the course: everyone has their own version of what happened, and thus no one can decide precisely what the hell actually happened. The "facts" of this issue, whatever they were, are long gone.

 

At this point I'm more than willing to concede that everyone involved is full of stevestojan. But even aside from that...how can one possibly tell objectively whether it's Thurlow or Lambert who's lying?

 

(And as for Kerry's war record: It's his war RECORD. That is, it's a matter of record. Anyone who wants to dismiss it as false had better damned well be prepared to explain how the records were falsified, and who perjured themselves in the process. I'm surprised Kerry's campaign hasn't taken that course with that issue yet..."Explain how your hearsay accusations disagree with the official record." Of course, that would probably just open them up to direct accusations of perjury, rather than the veiled ones they're so awkwardly parrying now.)

[DC Tom]

I assume he is talking about Thurlow for two reasons. First, Thurlow was awarded the Bronze Star during that action the same as Kerry. Thurlow was supposedly thrown, knocked or fell overboard and was pulled out of the water by Lambert. According to the official report his boat was under fire but he turned it into the enemy and helped to rescue the memebers of the boat that hit the mine.

 

What has a lot of Vets upset is that by attacking Kerry for his service and questioning the validity of his medals, these guys have put into question the validity of medals earned by all Vets, from all wars. The fool Thurlow actually brought into question his own Bronze Star by his statements. If they were true why didn't he say so 35 years ago? All Officers involved in an action were present and reviewed after-action reports and he could have said at the time that there was no hostile fire. He and his reason is that he thought nobady would see the reports. When asked why he thought he got the medal he said that it was because he pulled guys out of the water and saved the boat. Of course Kerry did the exact same thing, but that escapes the idiot. 

 

Regardless of what he says they both received the medal for the same thing. Either, they were under fire from the enemy which is supported by eyewitness accounts, and Naval records that have stood for 35 years. Or, they both pulled guys out of the water and saved the boats. Either way this guy cannot have his medal and deny Kerry his. The hipocracy is incredible.

7782[/snapback]

 

Nice points, actually.

 

And please don't anyone think for a minute that I support either side on this BS issue. Personally, I think all parties involved in this stupid argument should be given a spanking and sent to bed without their supper. No matter how thin you slice it, it's still baloney.

[Mickey]

Whatever the truth is, it still remains that four months in Viet Nam is not a lot of reason to vote someone President. Don't give me the "he knows how it is" stevestojan either. Ain't gonna buy it. A REAL leader would have done his tour to take care of his people. A lot of folks talking about that crap both here and elsewhere have never spent a day in uniform, let alone heard a shot fired in anger.

7762[/snapback]

 

 

His Viet Nam service isn't the only reason to vote for Kerry, there are plenty of others on a whole host of issues. His website lays out his positions comprehensively and includes links to his speeches and proposals. I think your mind is probably made up so there is no reason for you to bother wading through all that information. As much as I dislike Bush's positions on a variety of issues, I am still not sure who I am going to vote for because there is just too much time between now and the election for me to decide.

 

One thing I did recently learn that I didn't know before was the role Kerry played in taking down BCCI, the favorite bank of terrorists including bin Laden. Check it out:

 

How John Kerry Busted the Terrorists' Favorite Bank

 

The ranking Republican on Kerry's committee (Sen. Hank Brown) said of Kerry's role in busting BCCI:

 

"John Kerry was willing to spearhead this difficult investigation, because many important members of his own party were involved in this scandal, it was a distasteful subject for other committee and subcommittee chairmen to investigate. They did not. John Kerry did."

 

By the way, one GW Bush engineered a $25 Million dollar loan from a BCCI joint venture to Harken Energy.

 

I'm sensing a theme emerging here. An ugly job, no one wants to do it, some stay on the sidelines but not Kerry, he shoulders his share of the load. Some report for duty, some don't.

[_BiB_]

I've waded through it. We just might not have the same ideas about comprehensive. I've quit counting speeches that contradict each other. Just about everyone here knows my focus, that's what I'm basing my presidential thoughts on. To me, without the right moves made towards defense, none of the rest of the stuff matters. It goes way past blowing things up. Look at the effects four guys with a boxcutter can have on the economy.

[BRH]

Look at the effects four guys with a boxcutter can have on the economy.

7820[/snapback]

This is why the economy has gone to stevestojan while Bush was president?

[IDBillzFan]

This is why the economy has gone to stevestojan while Bush was president? 

7856[/snapback]

Who would ever imagine the economy would be as STRONG as it is now relative to what happened on Sept. 11.

[BRH]

Who would ever imagine the economy would be as STRONG as it is now relative to what happened on Sept. 11.

7861[/snapback]

 

Why do I picture Marty Feldman here? It could be worse! It could be even stevestojanttier!

[BuffaloBorn1960]

He's on tape telling the President of the United States that he was in Cambodia.

 

And in the "next sentence" he admits that he was also "along the Cambodian border," when he's now telling everyone he never came within 50 miles of Cambodia.

 

He either lied to the President, or he's lying now.  Or maybe he's just ... flip-flopped.

7788[/snapback]

Ok I recognize a reading comprehension disability when I see it so I'll go slowly...

 

Read the transcripts and you will see...

 

O'NEILL: Alan, yes, they are, Alan. It's two different places, Alan. One place is along the Mekong River, right in the heart of the delta. The second place is on the west coast of Cambodia at a place called Ha Tien, where the boundary is right along that border.

 

Where Kerry was in Christmas of 1968 was on this river, the Mekong River. We got about 40 or 50 miles from the border. That's as close as we ran.

 

Later, Kerry went, and I went, to a place called Bernique's Creek — that was our nickname for it — at Ha Tien. That was a canal system that ran close to the border, but that wasn't at Christmas for Kerry. That was later for him.

 

So it's two separate places, Alan, and the story is correct.

 

[IDBillzFan]

 

 

Why do I picture Marty Feldman here?  It could be worse!  It could be even stevestojanttier!

7899[/snapback]

My business is thriving. Companies are spending more and more money on technology which in turn requires more programming from companies like mine which in turn means I'm close to hiring two people in the next couple of months.

 

What do you do for a living that the economy is killing you?

[Alaska Darin]

My business is thriving. Companies are spending more and more money on technology which in turn requires more programming from companies like mine which in turn means I'm close to hiring two people in the next couple of months.

 

What do you do for a living that the economy is killing you?

7965[/snapback]

Apparently he doesn't understand the economy is a cyclical beast that ebbs and flows according to a variety of market pressures. Being the simp he is, it's very easy to blame one person for everything that goes wrong (because currently that person belongs to the other horrible party) or credit for everything that goes right (only when that person belongs to his horrible party).

 

And people wonder why the government has seized control of virtually everything.

 

[BRH]

Ok I recognize a reading comprehension disability when I see it so I'll go slowly...

 

Read the transcripts and you will see...

 

O'NEILL: Alan, yes, they are, Alan. It's two different places, Alan. One place is along the Mekong River, right in the heart of the delta. The second place is on the west coast of Cambodia at a place called Ha Tien, where the boundary is right along that border.

 

Where Kerry was in Christmas of 1968 was on this river, the Mekong River. We got about 40 or 50 miles from the border. That's as close as we ran.

 

Later, Kerry went, and I went, to a place called Bernique's Creek — that was our nickname for it — at Ha Tien. That was a canal system that ran close to the border, but that wasn't at Christmas for Kerry. That was later for him.

 

So it's two separate places, Alan, and the story is correct.

 

7956[/snapback]

You should have gone more slowly. Let me help.

 

O'Neill today says he was never in Cambodia.

 

This directly contradicts what he said to Nixon.

 

On This Week last Sunday, O'Neill claimed that there is no watery border between Vietnam and Cambodia and so Kerry could not have crossed into Cambodia or been anywhere near it in a Swift Boat. He now says that there is such a border: "a place called Ha Tien, where the boundary is right along that border."

 

Right here you can see a map showing the location of Bernique's Creek in Ha Tien. Scroll down a little further and you see a picture with the following description:

 

Here a Swift Boat is seen departing Ha Tien in the late afternoon hours up the Giang Thanh for patrol. Cambodia will be on the left bank as she departs the lake area with South Vietnam on the southeast or right side.

Hm it looks like there is plenty of water along the Cambodian border, doesn't it?

 

O'Neill is now backtracking by saying that when he said "there isn't any watery border" he was only talking about the Mekong River...which runs north through South Vietnam into...uhmmm...Cambodia. Of course, although he claims his patrol only came within 50 miles of Cambodia on the Mekong, he has no idea what Kerry did on the same river, because he said, and I quote, "I was there two months after him."

[BRH]

My business is thriving. Companies are spending more and more money on technology which in turn requires more programming from companies like mine which in turn means I'm close to hiring two people in the next couple of months.

 

What do you do for a living that the economy is killing you?

7965[/snapback]

I'm a lawyer. I also care about more than just myself.

[DC Tom]

I'm a lawyer.  I also care about more than just myself.

8005[/snapback]

 

 

Sorry...but taken out of context, that statement is an uproariously funny oxymoron...

[BRH]

       

 

Sorry...but taken out of context, that statement is an uproariously funny oxymoron...

8009[/snapback]

Yeah yeah. I should have said "but" instead of "also".

[_BiB_]

This is why the economy has gone to stevestojan while Bush was president? 

7856[/snapback]

 

That's not what I said. Take a moment to consider the dollars and cents cost of being forced to react to the terror threat. It's quite expensive to have to consider security in everything you do, whether you are business or government, when you didn't have to do it before.

 

What are the costs of security at the upcoming convention? What would they have been had there not been a 9/11?

[IDBillzFan]

Apparently he doesn't understand the economy is a cyclical beast that ebbs and flows

 

It'll be better when Kerry gets into office and starts with all the spending...though I'm not quite sure where he's going to get that money. 'Middle class' was it again?

[Alaska Darin]

It'll be better when Kerry gets into office and starts with all the spending...though I'm not quite sure where he's going to get that money. 'Middle class' was it again?

8021[/snapback]

Yeah. I love the idea that the government is going to make things better, contrary to all the evidence throughout recorded history.

[erynthered]

I'm a lawyer.  I also care about more than just myself.

8005[/snapback]

 

 

I'm curious, sole practitioner, Government, ACLU, teacher, PI, Divorce...etc??

 

Oh, also, how long have you been practicing?