PromoTheRobot Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Sticking up for Ralph is not the popular thing to do on this or any Bills forum. People want to believe the worst about him and his intentions, even if it doesn't make any sense when the last 50 years are taken into account. Bills fans clamor for some kind of post-Ralph succession plan to keep the Bills in Buffalo. Ralph says there is no plan. But I think there may be more than meets the eye here. Unless they find gold, oil, and diamonds buried under WNY, chances are the local economy will not recover to a level that can compete with the fat cat NFL markets. That makes keeping the Bills in Buffalo next to impossible for a new owner. Yes, the Bills make a profit now but the Bills have no debt. Anyone borrowing to buy the Bills will have massive payments that will send the team into the red. No one in their right mind would borrow $1B so they can lose money. And not many people have $1B in liquid capital lying around so they can buy without borrowing. But if the Bills can develop Toronto to be part of the home market, then suddenly the team becomes a major player. The trick is keeping Toronto from taking the team lock, stock and barrel. That's where Ralph and Roger Goodell step in. I don't think Goodell wants the Bills to leave Buffalo. But as NFL commissioner he owes it to the other 31 owners to maximize profitability. So what if Ralph cuts a deal where they allow Toronto to get half of the home dates with the guarantee that Buffalo never gets fewer than say 5 home games. (1-pre, 4-reg) Then NFL can then say they did not abandon Buffalo. The NFL gets a presence in Canada. And the assumed new owners, Rogers, will get NFL football without paying a relocation fee. In fact for all we know, the money Rogers is paying now could well be a partial down payment for the Bills. I know some hate the idea of the Bills being shared with anyone. We all want things to stay as they are. But the reality is they can not. Anyone who believes Jim Kelly is going to somehow buy this franchise is dreaming. There's always a chance that Tom Golisano or Jeremy Jacobs steps up but they will likely want to tap into Toronto as well to help with massive debt service. We all love the Bills but it gets tiresome always being the bottom-feeder. The team that no one wants to play for. The team that has to hire coaches based on what they would cost. Me personally, I would gladly split the franchise with Toronto if it meant we could be a consistent contender. Of course there's no guarantee Rogers or any new owner would spend the money needed to compete. But the NFL is a billionaire's club these days and you need to the $$$ to play the game. Flame away. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Bills Fan Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 If the teams does have to be sold where would everyone rather them move to? Toronto so they can be in driving distance or anywhere else in the USA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted March 30, 2009 Author Share Posted March 30, 2009 If the teams does have to be sold where would everyone rather them move to? Toronto so they can be in driving distance or anywhere else in the USA? Having the team part-time is not an option to you? PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 The Bills move and I am no longer a fan. Splitting games with Toronto will not work. I just dont see the people of Toronto all getting behind a team shared with Buffalo like they would normally. Interest may be hurt in Buffalo. Eventually the team would have to choose one or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpcolosi Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Sticking up for Ralph is not the popular thing to do on this or any Bills forum. People want to believe the worst about him and his intentions, even if it doesn't make any sense when the last 50 years are taken into account. Bills fans clamor for some kind of post-Ralph succession plan to keep the Bills in Buffalo. Ralph says there is no plan. But I think there may be more than meets the eye here. Unless they find gold, oil, and diamonds buried under WNY, chances are the local economy will not recover to a level that can compete with the fat cat NFL markets. That makes keeping the Bills in Buffalo next to impossible for a new owner. Yes, the Bills make a profit now but the Bills have no debt. Anyone borrowing to buy the Bills will have massive payments that will send the team into the red. No one in their right mind would borrow $1B so they can lose money. And not many people have $1B in liquid capital lying around so they can buy without borrowing. But if the Bills can develop Toronto to be part of the home market, then suddenly the team becomes a major player. The trick is keeping Toronto from taking the team lock, stock and barrel. That's where Ralph and Roger Goodell step in. I don't think Goodell wants the Bills to leave Buffalo. But as NFL commissioner he owes it to the other 31 owners to maximize profitability. So what if Ralph cuts a deal where they allow Toronto to get half of the home dates with the guarantee that Buffalo never gets fewer than say 5 home games. (1-pre, 4-reg) Then NFL can then say they did not abandon Buffalo. The NFL gets a presence in Canada. And the assumed new owners, Rogers, will get NFL football without paying a relocation fee. In fact for all we know, the money Rogers is paying now could well be a partial down payment for the Bills. I know some hate the idea of the Bills being shared with anyone. We all want things to stay as they are. But the reality is they can not. Anyone who believes Jim Kelly is going to somehow buy this franchise is dreaming. There's always a chance that Tom Golisano or Jeremy Jacobs steps up but they will likely want to tap into Toronto as well to help with massive debt service. We all love the Bills but it gets tiresome always being the bottom-feeder. The team that no one wants to play for. The team that has to hire coaches based on what they would cost. Me personally, I would gladly split the franchise with Toronto if it meant we could be a consistent contender. Of course there's no guarantee Rogers or any new owner would spend the money needed to compete. But the NFL is a billionaire's club these days and you need to the $$$ to play the game. Flame away. PTR This is a very, very accurate assessment of the state of the economics of the NFL and the current fiscal issues surrounding out franchise. I think anyone opposed to expanding our presence in southern ontario really needs to evaluate whether they want a competitive team or not. The reason the Bills can not compete at this point in time is we simply do not have the same cash flow as other teams. People need to understand, Ralph became a multi-millionaire through owning the Bills. he is not Dan Snyder or Robert Kraft who have private enterprises kicking them a paycheck as well. Ralph and his family owned insurance companies and sporting good stores in Michigan. He is wealthy because of his investment in the Bills, not in addition to. Thus, expanding and regionalizing the franchise is easily the wisest move. Goodell more than anyone is aware of the impact of the bills on the WNY economy and I believe will keep the team here as long as it remains viable. The additional income from Toronto is allowing us to do so, whether we like it or not. TV deals and revenue sharing alone are not enough to keep this franchise afloat. If the new CBA changes to sub 60% player income share and adjusts to a cap or ratio on draft pick salaries, then we are able to compete more so than now. This is why Ralph and Brown were against the original CBA. That extra 5-10mil towards player salaries under a 60% share is not sustainable in any small market. Finally, your point on ownership and debt is valid. Unless Jimbo has some big NYC fat cat lined up to buy the team with cash (see the Dolan family buying the Tribe in 01), the new owner will have some debt. The most likely scenario still is that Jacobs sells the Bruins soon, especially with their value being higher this year than at any other point of the past 25+ years. Assuming the franchise nets ~$200mil, he is able to be the majority owner of the bills with a few smaller investors (see Jimbo, thurman, Hamister, etc) or the solo owner with a set amount of debt. Thankfully our stadium is "free" and that eliminates the need for further financing.... So in the end, pray Ralph can live a bit longer, the bruins with the Stanley cup, and that Toronto is dumb enough to keep giving us $75mil deals for a fraction of our games. It kept the Packers around, we are the GB of the AFC... Go Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Bills Fan Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 No it wont be an option. I am from Toronto which is a corporate city when it comes to sports. The tickets cost a fortune and most of the people who go are clients for some big company who spend most of the games in their private bar and barely go to their seats. It pisses me off. Especially when fans try to buy tickets but cant afford them or they are all sold out. Not to mention scalper tickets are crazy here. I once had Leafs standing room tickets (face value $20 paid $80) I asked a scapler if I could sell him my standing room ticket plus give him $100 cash for the seat in the last row of the ACC. The scalper laughed at me and walked away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lofton80 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Good post PTR. And it may actually have some traction whether we like it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted March 30, 2009 Author Share Posted March 30, 2009 No it wont be an option. I am from Toronto which is a corporate city when it comes to sports. The tickets cost a fortune and most of the people who go are clients for some big company who spend most of the games in their private bar and barely go to their seats. It pisses me off. Especially when fans try to buy tickets but cant afford them or they are all sold out. Not to mention scalper tickets are crazy here. I once had Leafs standing room tickets (face value $20 paid $80) I asked a scapler if I could sell him my standing room ticket plus give him $100 cash for the seat in the last row of the ACC. The scalper laughed at me and walked away This is exactly why the NFL wants to be in Toronto. They see the crazy money folks drop on the Leafs. I live in NH, just an hour outside of Boston. Pro sports here are a playground for the rich. My friend is a Pats* season ticket holder. His seats are in low row of the end zone. His tickets just went up to $169 a piece!! (The same seats at RWS are $40) And parking?? $55!! The average Red Sox ticket is like $90. Celtics and Bruins sky high as well. (Of course all these teams are contenders which helps.) My point is that, like it or not, pro sports are not for fans anymore. Maybe you save up and go to one game a year and watch the rest on TV. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynical Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Once the team becomes for sale, I would not be surprised to see the NFL attempt to work with the state of NY and Niagara county to build a new stadium somewhere near Niagara Falls. The Rogers Centre is small based on NFL standards, both overall seating capacity and suites. There are numerous reasons why it makes sense, especially if the new stadium is domed ( ). But we will see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpcolosi Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Once the team becomes for sale, I would not be surprised to see the NFL attempt to work with the state of NY and Niagara county to build a new stadium somewhere near Niagara Falls. The Rogers Centre is small based on NFL standards, both overall seating capacity and suites. There are numerous reasons why it makes sense, especially if the new stadium is domed ( ). But we will see. a new stadium is not an option if the bills stay in WNY. its minimum $350mil additional debt, even if the state kicks in similar amounts that it has for Citi Field, the new Meadowlands, and new Yankee Stadium. the best thing we have going for us is a "free" stadium. in addition, niagara county has already voted down wanting the bills moved there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynical Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 a new stadium is not an option if the bills stay in WNY. its minimum $350mil additional debt, even if the state kicks in similar amounts that it has for Citi Field, the new Meadowlands, and new Yankee Stadium. the best thing we have going for us is a "free" stadium. in addition, niagara county has already voted down wanting the bills moved there. I agree the free stadium is a better option financially, but the location leaves a lot to be desired (if their goal is to target the Toronto market). Building a new stadium in the Toronto area is not an option (unless the new owner has some serious deep pockets as the Canadian govt's will do little to nothing to help, not to mention the potential for lackluster support). Splitting games between RWS and the Roger is a short term solution. As I said previously, the Roger is too small. The lost revenue through direct and indirect streams (ticket sales, concessions, etc...) means increased prices (as we already have seen). That's not going to go over well long term. Also, throw in the potential for lack luster support by the Canadian fan (as we have also already seen*), and this option is a disaster waiting to happen. * To many people automatically assumed that Canadiens would openly embrace an NFL team. Based on the schedules, the NFL team will be competing directly against the CFL team for fans. It's one thing for the NFL to be "next door", and it is quite another thing for the NFL to be in their "back yard". That's why a larger (than the Roger) stadium, near the border, and as close to Toronto as possible makes the most "sense". It would allow the NFL to tap into the Toronto market without stepping into their "backyard". As for Niagara county saying "no" to the Bills: I-D-I-O-T-S. I was thinking of a domed ( ) stadium being part of a entertainment/tourism/convention center complex. Niagara county may be more inclined to say "yes" if the new building was more than just a stadium. Plus, doesn't the NFL offer some kind of "loan" to owners to aid in building new stadiums? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NyQuil Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 So apparently Ralph does not care at all about his legacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 It's not Jim Kelly buying the team. It's Kelly and Kemp finding independent financers to purchase the team. It's actually a likely scenario, since Kemp is respected immensely by the business community (not to mention very well connected) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 according to Yahoo maps, if you put in from Toronto to Buffalo its 1 hr, 38 minutes. From toronto to niagara falls its 1 hr, 23 minutes. If they decide to base the location of the stadium on people from toronto driving an extra 15 minutes, then just move them to Toronto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poeticlaw Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 The Bills move and I am no longer a fan. Splitting games with Toronto will not work. I just dont see the people of Toronto all getting behind a team shared with Buffalo like they would normally. Interest may be hurt in Buffalo. Eventually the team would have to choose one or the other. And as a Buffalo fan I could not support the split either I dont even like the fact that games are played there now. half our season sorry new team for me I am not 1/2 canadian!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynical Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 according to Yahoo maps, if you put in from Toronto to Buffalo its 1 hr, 38 minutes. From toronto to niagara falls its 1 hr, 23 minutes. If they decide to base the location of the stadium on people from toronto driving an extra 15 minutes, then just move them to Toronto. The stadium is not located in Buffalo. The present stadium is located in Orchard Park, south of Buffalo. Based on Yahoo maps, Toronto to Orchard Park is 1 hr, 54 minutes. Moving the stadium to Niagara Falls shaves a 1/2 hour off the drive time. Moving the stadium from Orchard Park to Buffalo will only save the Toronto fan a 15 minute drive time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NyQuil Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 It's not Jim Kelly buying the team. It's Kelly and Kemp finding independent financers to purchase the team. It's actually a likely scenario, since Kemp is respected immensely by the business community (not to mention very well connected) Ding ding ding. They just need to convince the investors the despite all of Ralph's crying about small market and the Western NY economy (before the whole country/world crashed) he is still making money. Yes they won't make Dallas or Washington kind of cash but they will still turn a decent profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Flame away. PTR They are a private business, so I have no opinion as to if they stay or they go - all I want to see happen is the end of politicians crowing about nebulous claims of great local economic benefit for all, wooing easy votes from the large numbers of any large city's subsidized easy-streeters, and sticking the actual taxpayers of a region with taxation and bond obligations for the vicarious benefit of the minority of citizens. The fans. Flame away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 The stadium is not located in Buffalo. The present stadium is located in Orchard Park, south of Buffalo. Based on Yahoo maps, Toronto to Orchard Park is 1 hr, 54 minutes. Moving the stadium to Niagara Falls shaves a 1/2 hour off the drive time. Moving the stadium from Orchard Park to Buffalo will only save the Toronto fan a 15 minute drive time. the decision isnt between keeping the stadium in orchard park and putting a new shiny one in NF. The decision would be new facility (somewhere) vs. RWS in Orchard Park. Then the decision would be where. Whether the Buffalo waterfront, OP, or elsewhere. In this case, it would be extremely probable it would be located in Erie County, and a good chance in Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted March 30, 2009 Author Share Posted March 30, 2009 It's not Jim Kelly buying the team. It's Kelly and Kemp finding independent financers to purchase the team. It's actually a likely scenario, since Kemp is respected immensely by the business community (not to mention very well connected) You ever hear the expression "too many chefs"? I would not bet on this scenario. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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