thewildrabbit Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 1. This is a discussion on Gruden... 2. DJ had NO personell input in Chi, so I love how you say he had 5 years to bring in talent when he wasnt THE GM...the fact that you just said that statement just shows it just wont be possible to have an intelligent conversation about this with you because you dont even understand what a HC does or doesnt do... 3. And he didnt have much talent in Chi and his team did OVER acheive that 13-3 year (good trait for a coach too) which is why he won coach of the year...much like how when we were OVER achieving this year with a 5-1 start and he was again in the running for coach of the year...much like winning 7 games in 07 was a major over achievement after all the losses to personnel we took and having all those problems at QB and why he was mentioned in coach of the year honors most of the that year and it was considered to be one of the better coaching jobs in the league in 07. But enough about DJ...say what you want about him, that doesnt change the fact that Gruden is an over rated HC and will have a tough time finding work... Would you be willing to show proof to your pure speculation that Jauron had no input into who was brought into that Bears team,or ya just wanna keep blowing hot air. The Bills don't have a GM!.....GOOD LORD HOW WILL THEY BE ABLE TO BRING IN ANYONE The OP brought Jauron into it: I always thought Gruden was a bit Smug! How about Rice calling him names and saying he has no integrity! He took Dungy's players and won a Bowl, not much since but a downward spiral! What do you think our players will have to say about Jauron once he gets the Axe? I'l start with " Nice guy, No BALLS! " DJ has proven to me he sucks with those "calls" late in this season. I'd take Gruden over him any day,the guy actually has a brain! I'm about sick of Jauron and him being a players coach,I'll take someone who the players hate, but wins super bowls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Would you be willing to show proof to your pure speculation that Jauron had no input into who was brought into that Bears team,or ya just wanna keep blowing hot air. The Bills don't have a GM!.....GOOD LORD HOW WILL THEY BE ABLE TO BRING IN ANYONE The OP brought Jauron into it: DJ has proven to me he sucks with those "calls" late in this season. I'd take Gruden over him any day,the guy actually has a brain! I'm about sick of Jauron and him being a players coach,I'll take someone who the players hate but wins super bowls DJ isnt as bad as the fans hate him...not my favorite either, but not as bad as he is made out to be IMO. Gruden is over rated IMO... And I bet those of you over stating the input DJ had on personnel decisions are the same ones posting that Buffalo cant get ahead because we dont have a true football GM... So which is it? The GM or the Coach that has the most impact on personell? Make up your mind becasue the posters on this board keep switching it around to make their points...and it gets old. Why do you think most Head Coaches in this league have generally done worse once they acheived a certain level of success that allowed them to take on being both a GM and HC in their next job? Because its TOO much to do...HC and assistant coaches have input but when it comes to scouting and drafting they rely heavily on the scouting department and the GM... But, of course you NOW want to ignore that fact and say because we are talking about DJ you want to exaggerate his impact in that department to now hold him accountable for poor draft decisions by Bears and Bills. Some coaches acheive that level of input and even seek out to get that level of power over personell, but it often back fires and rarely works... Holmgren even stepped down from his GM spot because he couldnt effectively do both...what happened next? The Seahawks made the Super Bowl... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PushthePile Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Really? Dick had NO personnel input at all in Chicago? His work was done once the Bears' season ended? They gave him draft weekend off? Told him "thanks, but we've got this under control" when Dick expressed interest in potential free agents? Chucky will have trouble finding work? Super Bowl winning coaches - even ones who lucked into the perfect storm of talent and destiny that all they had to do was stay out of the way and not !@#$ it up - are still fairly rare and will get another shot. I really can't tell if this is Dick, Dick's wife or mother, or a spurned ex-TB player cut by Chucky posting under Alphadawg's screen name. Players brought in during Jauron's tenure in Chicago include Mart Booker, Rosevelt Colvin, Brian Urlacher, Lance Briggs, Mike Brown, Charles Tillman, Anthony Thomas, Marc Columbo, and Alex Brown. I guess by your estimation the guy knows talent, huh? He also took over a team that went 4-12 back to back before he came in. It seems to me that maybe you should look into these things before posting. He also won coach of the year while in Chicago. The team he lost to in the playoffs was the Eagles team that went to four straight NFC championships. Lovie Smith did an outstanding job with the Bears superbowl team and alot of those players came from Jauron's time in Chicago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinky finger Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Hmmm, you mean the same Gregg Williams that was in so much demand that Sean Payton took money out of his own pocket to bring him to NO this next season? Hmmm...how many teams are trying to get Gruden in the NFL right now...um ZERO...not even as a coordinator So do you think its possible your estimation of Williams is a little low? Williams got a raw deal here and mark my words...he WILL be a HC in 2010 if he makes any impact on that NO defense in 2009. His time in Buffalo is looked at as a raw deal and a better coach than his time here showed...I actually think he can turn out to be a pretty good coach given the right opportunity... This is how many teams in how many years for GW? He will not be a HC in this league anytime soon, if ever. Gruden will resurface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I'll take someone who the players hate, but wins super bowls Why is that plural? He won 1 with a ready built team that could have won with many other coaches...thats like proclaiming you are a great gardener because you succesfully grew a Chia Pet then proceeded to kill everything else in your garden... Funny, NO ONE here has answered my question: Can you say that Tampa Bay won the SB that year BECUASE of Gruden and that no other available coach, including Dungy, would have been able to win THAT year with that TEAM? Unless you can say ONLY Gruden was capable of winning with that team, then your argument is dead and that completely devalues your only leg to stand on...his "right place at the right time" SB win... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 This is how many teams in how many years for GW? He will not be a HC in this league anytime soon, if ever. Gruden will resurface. Funny, when they broke the story about how Sean Payton gave a quarter of a million dollars of his OWN money to get Williams, they were talking about how respected he is in the league and about how if he can make any impact in NO he would once again become a hot HC candidate... Then again...I am sure your insight on his coaching abilities is greater than those across the NFL, including Sean Payton...so you are right, the guy being talked about as highly as Williams has no shot to get another HC job... By the way, I didnt say Gruden wont resurface...I said he wont have an easy time getting a job, especially a HC job, in the near future in the ranks of the NFL... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Alright, this is too much idiocy for me to deal with all at once, so we'll break it down. Just because you say something is a "FACT" doesn't actually make it a fact. TB did NOT get the SB because of Gruden...geezus, I just love how people like to over estimate. For anyone to say that means you are implying that TB was NOT capable of winning the SB that year with any other coach other than Gruden. No one here has claimed that Gruden was the only reason that TB went to the SB that year. But, Gruden played a large role in getting the team over the hump. For some reason, your myopic view on this is extremely black and white. Your OPINION that either gruden did everything or did nothing is incorrect. There are shades of gray in between, but you're having a difficult time grasping this simple concept. FACT: TB was a big SB favorite before Gruden took over. Yes, TB was a SB favorite that season, along with a few other teams in the NFC. Gruden took over a good team. However, Oakland was a SB favorite in the AFC, so what is your point? FACT: There are a lot of coaches that could have won the SB that year coaching TB. This in an unprovable fact. Its impossible to say who or what coach would have won/lost games with Tampa. Parcells had the handshake deal to coach the Buccs before he backed out of it, forcing Tampa into a corner. Any coach was going to take over a team with a load of talent, but that doesn;t mean any coach can win with a team. Example: Wade Phillips in Dallas. FACT: Dungy is a SB winning coach and there is NO reason to suggest he wouldnt have been able to also win if he stayed in TB that year. Does it mean he would have...no...but he definitiely would have had a legitimate shot. Yes, there is reason to believe that Dungy couldn't get it done. He hadn't gotten it done previously. His teams always struggled offensively, and Dungy just couldn't get the Buccs over the hump in the playoffs. And what does Dungy winning the SB have anything to do with his time in Tampa? As good of a coach as Dungy is, Indy was loaded with talent and had the best QB in the game. Why do you trash gruden for "winning with someone else's players" and then praise Dungy for doing the exact same thing in Indy? FACT: TB was immensely talented, especially on defense. Yes, we've been over this. They also had offensive troubles, and that was the main reason Dungy got canned. He just couldn't get the offense up to par with the defense. You either are in love with Chucky dolls or dont know much about football if you think TB won BECAUSE of Gruden and that he is responsible for bringing them a trophy. He did not build that team in Oakland, and he won with Dungys team in TB then ruined it and the franchise over the next 7 years... How can you say that he didn't build the oakland team? Prior to Gruden, oakland was 8-8, 7-9, and 4-12. With Gruden, the Raiders went 8-8, 8-8, 12-4, and 10-6. They made 2 playoff appearances, advancing to the AFC championship in 2000, and technically advancing to the AFC championship in 2001 (i say technically, because they had the pats* game won until the bull sh-- tuck rule). Also, Rich Gannon exploded under Gruden's guidance. Gannon had thrown for more than 12 TDs once in his 12 year career. Then all of a sudden he explodes to become a top 3 QB under Gruden. Whats the explanation for that? Overnight, Gannon just got that good randomly overnight, 12 years into a career where he had been a back the entire time? vor he got hooked up with a good coach who knew how to build and run an offense? So how does Gruden get no credit for building the Raiders? And if he doesnt, they who does? As for Tampa, you fully blame Gruden for running the team inot the ground, as if its gruden's fault the Buccs gave up 2 1st rounders and 2 seconds to get him. That's a horrible situation to put any coach in, and they are going to have a tough time overcoming it. All in all, with an aging defense, Gruden had 4 winning seasons, made the playoffs 3 times, and won the division 3 times. Not too shabby for 7 years work. Gruden probably rubbed a lot of players the wrong way; his style tends to do that. When you're winning, no one cares, but when you lose your last 4 to miss the playoffs, heads are gonna roll. Similar situation to coughlin. And theres a good argument to be made that firing Gruden was the right move. However, claiming that gruden did nothing tampa except run the team into the ground is nothing but a complete fabrication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Funny, when they broke the story about how Sean Payton gave a quarter of a million dollars of his OWN money to get Williams, they were talking about how respected he is in the league and about how if he can make any impact in NO he would once again become a hot HC candidate... Then again...I am sure your insight on his coaching abilities is greater than those across the NFL, including Sean Payton...so you are right, the guy being talked about as highly as Williams has no shot to get another HC job... By the way, I didnt say Gruden wont resurface...I said he wont have an easy time getting a job, especially a HC job, in the near future in the ranks of the NFL... If Greggggo is so respected and highly thought of, why didn't he get the redskins coaching job? Why did he only last 1 season in jacksonville? And Gruden will be back as an NFL head coach within 2 years. Most likely, he'll be coaching again in 2010. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Players brought in during Jauron's tenure in Chicago include Mart Booker, Rosevelt Colvin, Brian Urlacher, Lance Briggs, Mike Brown, Charles Tillman, Anthony Thomas, Marc Columbo, and Alex Brown. I guess by your estimation the guy knows talent, huh? He also took over a team that went 4-12 back to back before he came in. It seems to me that maybe you should look into these things before posting. He also won coach of the year while in Chicago. The team he lost to in the playoffs was the Eagles team that went to four straight NFC championships. Lovie Smith did an outstanding job with the Bears superbowl team and alot of those players came from Jauron's time in Chicago. OH, now your stating that the Bears did Indeed have talent and Jauron didn't know how to utilize it,but Lovie Smith did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 OH, now your stating that the Bears did Indeed have talent and Jauron didn't know how to utilize it,but Lovie Smith did? Sounds about right. I can easily think of 20 coaches around the NFL from last season that would have had the Bills at 9-7 or 10-6. In fact, its highly likely that Jauron was severely restricting the talent on that team from performing to its potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 DJ isnt as bad as the fans hate him...not my favorite either, but not as bad as he is made out to be IMO. Gruden is over rated IMO... And I bet those of you over stating the input DJ had on personnel decisions are the same ones posting that Buffalo cant get ahead because we dont have a true football GM... So which is it? The GM or the Coach that has the most impact on personell? Make up your mind becasue the posters on this board keep switching it around to make their points...and it gets old. Why do you think most Head Coaches in this league have generally done worse once they acheived a certain level of success that allowed them to take on being both a GM and HC in their next job? Because its TOO much to do...HC and assistant coaches have input but when it comes to scouting and drafting they rely heavily on the scouting department and the GM... But, of course you NOW want to ignore that fact and say because we are talking about DJ you want to exaggerate his impact in that department to now hold him accountable for poor draft decisions by Bears and Bills. Some coaches acheive that level of input and even seek out to get that level of power over personell, but it often back fires and rarely works... Holmgren even stepped down from his GM spot because he couldnt effectively do both...what happened next? The Seahawks made the Super Bowl... I'm still awaiting the proof that shows that you know Jauron had no input into the talent brought into that Bears team. You made a statement,now back it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 If Greggggo is so respected and highly thought of, why didn't he get the redskins coaching job? Why did he only last 1 season in jacksonville? And Gruden will be back as an NFL head coach within 2 years. Most likely, he'll be coaching again in 2010. He didnt stay in Jax because Jack Del Rio needed a scape goat to save his job...and why are you debating his demand when it was clearly documented this offseason as several teams were tying to land him and Sean Payton took a quarter of a million dollars out of his own pocket to lure him? It isnt speculation, its what happened and yet you still argue against it...geezus... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 He didnt stay in Jax because Jack Del Rio needed a scape goat to save his job...and why are you debating his demand when it was clearly documented this offseason as several teams were tying to land him and Sean Payton took a quarter of a million dollars out of his own pocket to lure him? It isnt speculation, its what happened and yet you still argue against it...geezus... the term is escape goat you moron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Sounds about right. I can easily think of 20 coaches around the NFL from last season that would have had the Bills at 9-7 or 10-6. In fact, its highly likely that Jauron was severely restricting the talent on that team from performing to its potential. I agree In fact, I think if Bill Belichick swapped teams with Jauron, the Bills would have won the division and made the playoffs at 12-4 . The post was directed at PushthePile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 the term is escape goat you moron google "scapegoat" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I'm still awaiting the proof that shows that you know Jauron had no input into the talent brought into that Bears team. You made a statement,now back it up. Serisously? Wow... My point was that he was NOT the GM...geezus...I dont know even why I respond to your posts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Players brought in during Jauron's tenure in Chicago include Mart Booker, Rosevelt Colvin, Brian Urlacher, Lance Briggs, Mike Brown, Charles Tillman, Anthony Thomas, Marc Columbo, and Alex Brown. I guess by your estimation the guy knows talent, huh? He also took over a team that went 4-12 back to back before he came in. It seems to me that maybe you should look into these things before posting. He also won coach of the year while in Chicago. The team he lost to in the playoffs was the Eagles team that went to four straight NFC championships. Lovie Smith did an outstanding job with the Bears superbowl team and alot of those players came from Jauron's time in Chicago. Did you even read my post, or just go off half-cocked and start typing a reply without reading it? Alphadawg said that Dick had NO input into personnel while he was in Chicago, and all I did was question that. I never said anything about the guys brought in, who pursued/signed them, who was the true talent evaluator or anything. Just pointing out that the idea that DJ had NO input into personnel matters was laughable. Surprisingly I did know about Jauron's one-hit wonder year in Chicago, where he won COTY honors and took the Bears to his only playff appearance as a HC (a loss) followed by a quick return to reality for DJ and Da Bears, going 5-11 and then 6-10 in his last two years. The 13-3/COTY year was an aberration, nothing more. For the most part I usually like what you post, so I'm gonna go ahead and assume you meant to respond to someone else. Otherwise I think you might want to look into a course in reading comprehension before posting. OH, now your stating that the Bears did Indeed have talent and Jauron didn't know how to utilize it,but Lovie Smith did? Another shining example of the circular logic of DJ defenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 google "scapegoat" Yet another one reeled in by the wily Beerball... Don't respond to his posts. He's Dirt, Inc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 google "scapegoat" It's two words I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 the term is escape goat you moron Oh, u relly gat me thur pointin owt a tiping errur...luk at thee big braen on u... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Oh, u relly gat me thur pointin owt a tiping errur...luk at thee big braen on u... your wellcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PushthePile Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Sounds about right. I can easily think of 20 coaches around the NFL from last season that would have had the Bills at 9-7 or 10-6. In fact, its highly likely that Jauron was severely restricting the talent on that team from performing to its potential. Empty speculation fueled by ignorant posters who can't come to grips with the fact that the team sucks still. Did he make bad calls? yes Do all coachs make bad calls? yes Your estimation of Jauron holding the team back comes from where? Your astute football knowledge? Your breakdown of film? Your understanding of schemes and player abilities? Your deep research into the Bills locker room and player's thoughts? I'm guessing no. In fact I'm going to say you think your an expert because you watch games on t.v. and post at TSW. I am no expert either but I don't pretend to be one. Saying you can easily name 20 coaches that could have led the Bills to a 9 and 7 record is stupid and makes you look stupid as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Empty speculation fueled by ignorant posters who can't come to grips with the fact that the team sucks still. Did he make bad calls? yes Do all coachs make bad calls? yes Your estimation of Jauron holding the team back comes from where? Your astute football knowledge? Your breakdown of film? Your understanding of schemes and player abilities? Your deep research into the Bills locker room and player's thoughts? I'm guessing no. In fact I'm going to say you think your an expert because you watch games on t.v. and post at TSW. I am no expert either but I don't pretend to be one. Saying you can easily name 20 coaches that could have led the Bills to a 9 and 7 record is stupid and makes you look stupid as well. good post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Empty speculation fueled by ignorant posters who can't come to grips with the fact that the team sucks still. Did he make bad calls? yes Do all coachs make bad calls? yes Your estimation of Jauron holding the team back comes from where? Your astute football knowledge? Your breakdown of film? Your understanding of schemes and player abilities? Your deep research into the Bills locker room and player's thoughts? I'm guessing no. In fact I'm going to say you think your an expert because you watch games on t.v. and post at TSW. I am no expert either but I don't pretend to be one. Saying you can easily name 20 coaches that could have led the Bills to a 9 and 7 record is stupid and makes you look stupid as well. Spot on! I came up with 21 in less than 90 seconds! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PushthePile Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 OH, now your stating that the Bears did Indeed have talent and Jauron didn't know how to utilize it,but Lovie Smith did? I'm saying Jauron got a bad team in Chicago and didn't improve it enough to retain his job. My post about the players was in reference to some of the talent aquired while he coached. You can take it anyway you want to but if your hatred for Jauron masks your ability have a intelligent conversation, then we are going no where. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 He didnt stay in Jax because Jack Del Rio needed a scape goat to save his job...and why are you debating his demand when it was clearly documented this offseason as several teams were tying to land him and Sean Payton took a quarter of a million dollars out of his own pocket to lure him? It isnt speculation, its what happened and yet you still argue against it...geezus... Gregggo is a decent DC, thats about it. And how about you answer all the questions i posted above about Gruden and the Buccs/Raiders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PushthePile Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Spot on! I came up with 21 in less than 90 seconds! Ha Ha nice! Beerball you my friend are the true expert and 90 seconds is a little long for you. Have you been drinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 No one here has claimed that Gruden was the only reason that TB went to the SB that year. But, Gruden played a large role in getting the team over the hump. For some reason, your myopic view on this is extremely black and white. Your OPINION that either gruden did everything or did nothing is incorrect. There are shades of gray in between, but you're having a difficult time grasping this simple concept. Actually, several have said they won because of Gruden... Yes, TB was a SB favorite that season, along with a few other teams in the NFC. Gruden took over a good team. However, Oakland was a SB favorite in the AFC, so what is your point? My point is, you are giving WAY too much credit to Gruden when TB was clearly capable of winning that year and many coaches would have had a legitimate shot at the SB. That makes the fleecing of picks and money oakland got a major heist. This in an unprovable fact. Its impossible to say who or what coach would have won/lost games with Tampa. Parcells had the handshake deal to coach the Buccs before he backed out of it, forcing Tampa into a corner. Any coach was going to take over a team with a load of talent, but that doesn;t mean any coach can win with a team. Example: Wade Phillips in Dallas. Dallas does not have the overall talent TB had that year...that defense was one of the best in history...nothing on Dallas on either side of the ball can make that claim. Plus, Dallas makes the playoffs if Romo doesnt get hurt...then who knows, maybe Dallas is in SB...all speculation... Yes, there is reason to believe that Dungy couldn't get it done. He hadn't gotten it done previously. His teams always struggled offensively, and Dungy just couldn't get the Buccs over the hump in the playoffs. And what does Dungy winning the SB have anything to do with his time in Tampa? As good of a coach as Dungy is, Indy was loaded with talent and had the best QB in the game. Why do you trash gruden for "winning with someone else's players" and then praise Dungy for doing the exact same thing in Indy? That team was still coming into its own and was improving each year. So, to say Dungy was the reason is speculation as he clearly showed he can win the big one. And FYI: He took over a team with a QB in Manning who was never any good in post season games to that point, had a bad defense and was not a SB caliber team at that point. He didnt win with someone elses players...after his arrival they got Freeny, Bob Sanders, Wayne, Clark, etc... How can you say that he didn't build the oakland team? Prior to Gruden, oakland was 8-8, 7-9, and 4-12. With Gruden, the Raiders went 8-8, 8-8, 12-4, and 10-6..................... So how does Gruden get no credit for building the Raiders? And if he doesnt, they who does? I said Gruden did not have the personell power in Oakland and that is a well known fact. The players brough in around Gruden were not because he "built" it because he was not the GM and was a known fact he had little input in this area. In fact, Davis didnt fully trust Gruden in this area...I am not saying he had ZERO, but he gets way too much credit for "building" that team. He didnt get that kind of power until about half way through is tenure with TB and made constant blunders with it, including managing his QB's worse than Buffalo handled JP and Flutie... All in all, with an aging defense, Gruden had 4 winning seasons, made the playoffs 3 times, and won the division 3 times. Not too shabby for 7 years work. Throw out the SB run...not his doing, that team makes a late playoff run no matter who is coaching it...after that he has 3 winning seasons in 6, two of which are only 9 win seasons! In fact, he didnt even have a winning season with that SB CALIBER team the following year after winning it! He only had back to back winning seasons once and both were 9-7...if DJ had gone 9-7 the last 2 years you would still be yelling for him to be fired because 9-7 would have still seen us miss the playoffs this year...so quit hyping those 9-7 seasons as if they were anything special and considering he plays in a weaker division... By they way, I love how you all hound DJ and scream for his firing for his finish this year after a hot start...TB was 9-3 and lost out to miss the playoffs including a lowly loss to one of the worst teams in the NFL in Oakland this year to end his season and reign as coach... There I answered your questions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PushthePile Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 John Gruden owes alot of thanks to Monte Kiffin. Without Kiffin's defense, Gruden would have been out of a job long ago. Gruden was supposedly an offensive genius and it never showed in Tampa. Is it any wonder that when Monte left to go work with his son, the team decided it was time to completely start over. I think Gruden will have to pay his dues somewhere as a coordinator again before he gets another head coaching gig. He will coach again though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 John Gruden owes alot of thanks to Monte Kiffin. Without Kiffin's defense, Gruden would have been out of a job long ago. Gruden was supposedly an offensive genius and it never showed in Tampa. Is it any wonder that when Monte left to go work with his son, the team decided it was time to completely start over. I think Gruden will have to pay his dues somewhere as a coordinator again before he gets another head coaching gig. He will coach again though. Think you're right. He goes the coordinator route. This is a huge piece of humble pie for Gruden. We'll see if he learns anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Actually, several have said they won because of Gruden... My point is, you are giving WAY too much credit to Gruden when TB was clearly capable of winning that year and many coaches would have had a legitimate shot at the SB. That makes the fleecing of picks and money oakland got a major heist. Dallas does not have the overall talent TB had that year...that defense was one of the best in history...nothing on Dallas on either side of the ball can make that claim. Plus, Dallas makes the playoffs if Romo doesnt get hurt...then who knows, maybe Dallas is in SB...all speculation... That team was still coming into its own and was improving each year. So, to say Dungy was the reason is speculation as he clearly showed he can win the big one. And FYI: He took over a team with a QB in Manning who was never any good in post season games to that point, had a bad defense and was not a SB caliber team at that point. He didnt win with someone elses players...after his arrival they got Freeny, Bob Sanders, Wayne, Clark, etc... I said Gruden did not have the personell power in Oakland and that is a well known fact. The players brough in around Gruden were not because he "built" it because he was not the GM and was a known fact he had little input in this area. In fact, Davis didnt fully trust Gruden in this area...I am not saying he had ZERO, but he gets way too much credit for "building" that team. He didnt get that kind of power until about half way through is tenure with TB and made constant blunders with it, including managing his QB's worse than Buffalo handled JP and Flutie... Throw out the SB run...not his doing, that team makes a late playoff run no matter who is coaching it...after that he has 3 winning seasons in 6, two of which are only 9 win seasons! In fact, he didnt even have a winning season with that SB CALIBER team the following year after winning it! He only had back to back winning seasons once and both were 9-7...if DJ had gone 9-7 the last 2 years you would still be yelling for him to be fired because 9-7 would have still seen us miss the playoffs this year...so quit hyping those 9-7 seasons as if they were anything special and considering he plays in a weaker division... By they way, I love how you all hound DJ and scream for his firing for his finish this year after a hot start...TB was 9-3 and lost out to miss the playoffs including a lowly loss to one of the worst teams in the NFL in Oakland this year to end his season and reign as coach... There I answered your questions... I love how you argue that Gruden isn't responsible for building the Raiders, its the GM who brought in all the players, but then give Dungy credit for bringing in Freeney, sanders, wayne, addai, etc. Last time i checked indy had a decent guy as their GM, no? The problem is that you are holding different coaches to different standards, and you are contradicting yourself with each post. You are biased against gruden and are doing nothing more than attacking him. (of course, logic isn't a strong suit of any jauron defender) As for gruden's finish, i've never stated that he shouldn't have been fired. I even said in my post that its easy to argue that gruden needed to be fired. His time in Tampa had about run out and that team needed some fresh blood. I know, i've followed Tampa closely down here. But that doesn't change the fact that he was a good coach and that it was a smart move for Tampa to get him. They won a super bowl, and Gruden played a big part in that. Hell, he knew oakland's offense inside and out, because he designed it, and thats a big reason why TB won. (Which brings another interesting note; if gruden did nothing to build the raiders, why did they keep his exact system in place after he left? couldn't be because it was a good one, could it?) As for Tampa, you can fault Gruden for not bringing in or developing enough WRs, but an interesting fact is that he was starting to develop a nice little offense for himself. Then Simms got his spleen ruptured and was never the same, and Cadillac Williams blew out his patellar tendon. That was 2 big pieces of a potential future offense in Tampa just gone. I'm not saying thwy would have been the next manning-addai, but you dont know. All i know is that they looked pretty good together in the 2005 season. And while we are on the topic of throwing seasons out (which is bogus), throw out the Colts super bowl run, and tony dungy is a career 5-10 in the playoffs. Thats awfully schottenheimer like. Finally, please elaborate on how rich gannon got so good on oakland, since gruden did nothing to help oakland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max997 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I always thought Gruden was a bit Smug! How about Rice calling him names and saying he has no integrity! He took Dungy's players and won a Bowl, not much since but a downward spiral! What do you think our players will have to say about Jauron once he gets the Axe? I'l start with " Nice guy, No BALLS! " Gruden also was a big part of the Raiders team that went to the Bowl that year...but people seem to forget that I could really care less what some idiot players like Jeff Garcia and Rice are saying about him now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I love how you argue that Gruden isn't responsible for building the Raiders, its the GM who brought in all the players, but then give Dungy credit for bringing in Freeney, sanders, wayne, addai, etc. Last time i checked indy had a decent guy as their GM, no? The problem is that you are holding different coaches to different standards, and you are contradicting yourself with each post. You are biased against gruden and are doing nothing more than attacking him. (of course, logic isn't a strong suit of any jauron defender) As for gruden's finish, i've never stated that he shouldn't have been fired. I even said in my post that its easy to argue that gruden needed to be fired. His time in Tampa had about run out and that team needed some fresh blood. I know, i've followed Tampa closely down here. But that doesn't change the fact that he was a good coach and that it was a smart move for Tampa to get him. They won a super bowl, and Gruden played a big part in that. Hell, he knew oakland's offense inside and out, because he designed it, and thats a big reason why TB won. (Which brings another interesting note; if gruden did nothing to build the raiders, why did they keep his exact system in place after he left? couldn't be because it was a good one, could it?) As for Tampa, you can fault Gruden for not bringing in or developing enough WRs, but an interesting fact is that he was starting to develop a nice little offense for himself. Then Simms got his spleen ruptured and was never the same, and Cadillac Williams blew out his patellar tendon. That was 2 big pieces of a potential future offense in Tampa just gone. I'm not saying thwy would have been the next manning-addai, but you dont know. All i know is that they looked pretty good together in the 2005 season. And while we are on the topic of throwing seasons out (which is bogus), throw out the Colts super bowl run, and tony dungy is a career 5-10 in the playoffs. Thats awfully schottenheimer like. Finally, please elaborate on how rich gannon got so good on oakland, since gruden did nothing to help oakland. All I said about Dungy in Indy was in response to you saying he inherited someone elses team...I didnt make the claim he built it, I am saying that team was no where near as good when he took it over as when he got it...plain and simple...as in it doesnt compare to Gruden taking over TB. Ok, so now you are making injury excuse for Gruden...Simms was never playing very well by the way...so if you are going to make the injury excuse for him then you better afford DJ the same courtesy, and even more... Gruden tanked the season with his starters in tact...DJ started 5-1 and lost key players on a team that isnt very deep at talent, including our only pass rush, 2 corners playing very well (including our starter), LB's, Reed, our OL and of course our QB...thats more than losing a RB (which he replaced just fine in TB and the running game was MORE productive after Cadillac went down. Cadillac only had a strong first half of a rookie year and has struggled ever since). Rich Gannon was started putting it together before he came to KC and then had a lot more talent at WR in two HOF's that were still productive and an incredible running game which included a RB that was much like Brian Westbrook in Garner. Not that hard to figure out...solid QB goes to more talented team with an aggressive offense...its not the first time something like that has happened in this league... Bottom line...Gruden in Oakland had FAR less input on personell than he did in TB...so he gets less credit there and more blame in TB because he MISMANAGED his players terribly in TB. Geezus...I cant believe someone is still arguing in defense of Gruden this long and this hard when there is a laundry list of evidence to state quite the contrary, including by people in the NFL and players who know a heck of a lot more about football than any of us on this board... Im done with it...go buy a Chucky doll, it will make you feel better because thats about all Gruden is good for...selling dolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornerville Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 So, you are saying TB ONLY, let me repeat, ONLY won because of GRUDEN and that there was NO, let me repeat, NO other coach on the open market capable of winning with that Super Bowl CALIBER team that year which was favored to win it all BEFORE Gruden took over... Whoever said this? And to say Gruden has NOTHING to do with the Bucs winning the Super Bowl? Please. Yes, we know he inherited Dungy's team, but you can say the SAME thing about Dungy, who inherited Manning, Polian and a LOADED Colts team. FYI: Oakland was a 4 pt favorite over Tampa Bay in the Super Bowl that year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fairweather fan Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Jon Gruden has a hell of a mind for offense. Unfortunately, his personality believes that he is the quarterback on the field, and he has second guessed, chewed out, pulled, put down, and alienated every offensive player who has played for him. He lets others coach the defense, so you hear no defensive players criticizing him. In Gruden's mind, every offensive play should gain 30 yards, so if it doesn't, it is the fault of the players, and not of anything in his play calling. He got along well with Rich Gannon, because Rich was older than Jon, and had absorbed bs from many coaches in his career, so it was like water off a duck's back. With a young quarterback, Jon is a disaster, and in a job that requires first and foremost, supreme self confidence, Jon does nothing but tear the quarterback down. Bill Belechick was not a great coach in Cleveland, but he did learn some people skills along the way, so that when he got another chance, he was ready with leadership skills and the ability to put players in position to succeed, which was reflected in the gain in confidence of each player he has coached. Belechick believes that the best training for a head coach is special teams coaching, because you have to coach both defense and offense, and at speeds that are much greater than coaching from a snap. I would rather have coffee with Jauron, have my team coached by Belecheat, and stay the hell away from Downer Gruden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinky finger Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Funny, when they broke the story about how Sean Payton gave a quarter of a million dollars of his OWN money to get Williams, they were talking about how respected he is in the league and about how if he can make any impact in NO he would once again become a hot HC candidate... Payton is desperate and will try anything that will help the defense. The next entity to go will be him. Impact?!?!?! Like the impact he made in Jville last year and Washington the year before and.........yeah he's so freakin' respected the NFL must have made a pact that everyone in the league get a shot him, huh? Alphadawg, all you're doing is padding your post count. And sounding ridiculous doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Serisously? Wow... My point was that he was NOT the GM...geezus...I dont know even why I respond to your posts... Your statement, 2. DJ had NO personell input in Chi, so I love how you say he had 5 years to bring in talent when he wasnt THE GM...the fact that you just said that statement just shows it just wont be possible to have an intelligent conversation about this with you because you dont even understand what a HC does or doesnt do... Seriously, I don't know why I waste my time even responding to someone who boasts about something then doesn't have the balls to admit they were talking out their backside. You really have no clue on whether Jauron had input on free agents or players drafted in Chicago do you ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 I always thought Gruden was a bit Smug! How about Rice calling him names and saying he has no integrity! He took Dungy's players and won a Bowl, not much since but a downward spiral! What do you think our players will have to say about Jauron once he gets the Axe? I'l start with " Nice guy, No BALLS! " He won a superbowl---I don't care whose players they were and I don't care how he did it or didn't do it...the result is what counts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 I'm saying Jauron got a bad team in Chicago and didn't improve it enough to retain his job. My post about the players was in reference to some of the talent aquired while he coached. You can take it anyway you want to but if your hatred for Jauron masks your ability have a intelligent conversation, then we are going no where. I don't hate Jauron, I actually like the guy and think he is a really good person, I simply think he sucks as a head coach and it really showed towards the end of this season. With the horrid calls such as the one in the Jets game and the various poor decisions in the last few games. You stated Jauron brought in quite a few really good players,why couldn't he win a playoff game with them, or even get back to a winning record after that one lone good season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 hahahaha...nice... Seriously, I would take Gregg Williams back before I would want Gruden. This guy has few friends in the NFL and he is about the equivalent of a sleezy used car salesman... The same Gregg Williams that was a HC with the Bills and failed so he was FIRED? The same DC with the Redskins and was supposed to take over as HC after Joe Gibbs left but instead of at least being retained as DC, he was FIRED? The same guy who was hired to run the Jags defense this past season and failed so he was FIRED? You want a guy who can't even retain his job as a DC over a guy who has won a super bowl...sleazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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