eliteqb Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 They did it to regionalize the team to Southern Ontario because the Buffalo economy stinks. But guess what, the current national economy is going to affect the whole league now. Advertising dollars will be shrinking and will affect the money going to all of the NFL teams. I don't think we'll be seeing gigantic contracts in the near future as revenues are shrinking. Even the NFL offices had to lay off people. Won't see team values escalating nor movement of franchises now. It had to happen and I think its here now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Green Bay used to play a ton of games in Milwaukee. What Chris said could be the biggest exaggeration in the history of NFL commentators. So far it was a stupid move, but Buffalo was lamely trying to bolster their fan base to help make them more competitive. Hasn't worked that way so far, but Collinsworth is an idiot for making such an over the top statement. Dumbest thing in the history of the NFL? I could name a few more dumb things this team did this year starting with letting Jauron coach their team for a third straight losing season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 The Bills selling out to play the home Miami game was the dumbest thing in the history of the franchise (and Collinsworth may be right in the history of the NFL). And, in my opinion, a comment like yours is probably the dumbest thing that could be said in response. Hears what we do, how about keeping the Bills in WNY and bringing revenue for the local economy. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. Sorry, I didn't here you...did you just call someone 'stupid'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 The likely 2010 version doesn't look too bad: http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/jdesign/2010Taurus.jpg That is a nice ride, but doesn't Ralph know that Toyota is the 'Official Car of the Buffalo Bills'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 How can anyone claim that the Toronto thing was anything other than a money grab without knowing how much money Ralph makes? It would be a different situation if Ralph ever made it known that he would like to keep the Bills in Buffalo after he's gone and potential buyers need him to access to Toronto to make that happen. I would accept the Toronto situation more if a new owner who paid $800m for the the franchise did it, not from a guy who paid $50,000 for it. Wilson gets a check from the NFL that basically pays for the salary cap limit and spends significantly less than that on players. He doesn't spend on coaches or front office. He essentially pays nothing to play at the stadium built by taxpayers and named after him. Without access to the numbers, it is probably safe to assume any money he gets from tickets, parking, concessions, and luxury boxes is pure profit, estimated at $5-6m per home game. Toronto simply increases that number. I think the problem for Ralph is he's been an owner for 50 years and is bitter that a new batch of owners like Jones and Snyder make more profits than him. So he uses the the poor Buffalo economy to extract more revenue sharing from the NFL and scheme up the Toronto thing. This is not about viability in Buffalo, it is about trying to close the profit gap with Dallas, Washington, and the New Yorks. The problem is there are only a handful of those markets, and Toronto and LA are the only ones without teams. And LA isn't building someone a stadium with the mess California is in and has already seen 2 teams leave, and Toronto has political barriers. If the Bills get put up on the market when Ralph is no longer here, I think people might be surprised to see how attractive keeping the Bills in Buffalo will be with a free stadium, a rabid fanbase, and rich NFL revenue sharing especially in this economic environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
profile Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 I typically don't like Collinsworth. I always thought he over-exagerates-but-he's right. I totally agree with him. I think those are my exact feelings about collinsworth, and I also agree with him. This whole game up there deal is an epic fail. It takes stadium revenue, concessions revenue, and parking revenue out of Erie County, the exact opposite of what's good for the local economy. And someone else in this thread commented about local taxes being high, well that's 100% accurate. The entire local governmental structure is way too top heavy, and until that gets restructured, WNY will see more business leave town. I have not been too happy with Ralph lately, but we can't blame him for NY state's poor governmental structure. It simply doesn't work any more. When Buffalo goes from the 8th largest city in the U.S. in 1958 to 68th in 2005 tells you that taxes, and too much local, and county government are killing the region. And it's very sad to me because I love Buffalo, and I can't live there because the job market is very thin. I'd give anything to be able to move back home, but it wouldn't be the same if the Bills are no longer there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Buffalo, NF, Rochester, Southern Ontario from Hamilton South to the border over 3 million people. If Buffalo markets to those areas they will be fine. The Toronto metropolitan area is more interested in themselves and just Toronto. Even if Toronto got a team most So Ontario people would not even be able to go to the games. They would be priced out just like the Leafs. So the Bills could easily get those fans. Advertise there, have the players do appearances there etc....I am not sure Toronto businesses would be that interested in buying suites at the Ralph. I see the marketing move there from the Bills' perspective but Toronto is a mjor world market and city.....one of the top cities in the world. So it is a lot different than going to Rochester for training camp. Rochester is already a Bills town b/c they have no sports team there. Keep that market, get Southern Ontario and Buffalo and NF and there is enough there to support a team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffalOhio Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 If you don't like it, how about voting for politicians who will change the business climate in Buffalo by lowering our much higher than usual taxes, allowing businesses to come back to our city. Don't blame this on Ralph Wilson. Buffalo voters are complicit in the horrible economic climate in the area. QFT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 If you don't like it, how about voting for politicians who will change the business climate in Buffalo by lowering our much higher than usual taxes, allowing businesses to come back to our city. Don't blame this on Ralph Wilson. Buffalo voters are complicit in the horrible economic climate in the area. Have you noticed the boom in business in Niagara Falls, Ontario? What's the tax situation like there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 NF, Ontario is great. Ontario made a concerted effort to grow and make it a destination. They, unlike NYS realize people will gamble and like to do so....so what did they do? Helped build a great Vegas style casino with large hotels and more going up. There are things to do there as well and a walker/tourist friendly park. The crime is essentially non-existent as well as opposed to NF,NY. NF, NY is a top 10 (I believe number 7 or 8) according to Forbes yet it has been mismanaged for decades. Imagine if a good plan made it safe, made it look less of a dump and had a few things to do there. The ONLY thing in the offseason to do there is go to the casino. It is the only thing employing people in that town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 NF, Ontario is great. Ontario made a concerted effort to grow and make it a destination. They, unlike NYS realize people will gamble and like to do so....so what did they do? Helped build a great Vegas style casino with large hotels and more going up. There are things to do there as well and a walker/tourist friendly park. The crime is essentially non-existent as well as opposed to NF,NY. NF, NY is a top 10 (I believe number 7 or 8) according to Forbes yet it has been mismanaged for decades. Imagine if a good plan made it safe, made it look less of a dump and had a few things to do there. The ONLY thing in the offseason to do there is go to the casino. It is the only thing employing people in that town. Exactly. It isn't just about taxes, as some would have us believe. It is about a plan, commitment, and a local gov't that thinks big and actually supports new projects, instead of undermining them. I think the NY side of Niagara Falls may be so far gone that only something like a major takeover by a very wealthy visionary can save it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boltuprite Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 it was stupid. A division game where home field would be an advantage (usually) against a warm weather team. the game that should have been played in TO was the 49er game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setrett Posted December 12, 2008 Author Share Posted December 12, 2008 This thread has articulated some very reasonable arguments on both sides, i.e. that Toronto is necessary long-term to keep the team profitable in Buffalo versus Ralph Wilson is doing this just to make himself more money. Is there anyone out there with business or financial experience who can quantify for us the amount of profit the Bills would need to make to be kept in Buffalo with high probability ( > 80% ? ) after Ralph passes? This would have to be compared with relocation costs, stadium expenses, new tax structure, long-term economic viability, etc. in places like Toronto and LA. Once we have a ballpark number we can look at the amount of profit Ralph Wilson generates without the Toronto deal. If it's greater than the amount needed to keep the team in place, then Ralph should spend money on players and coaches up to that limit to make the team more competitive. Otherwise, he could be fairly criticized as being a crass capitalist acting only enhance his family's personal wealth. But without having access to some hard numbers, this seems like a tough question to resolve just by throwing arguments back and forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 I can think of two things dumber than letting the team play in Toronto: 1. Not firing Marv Levy after the second Superbowl loss, seeing that he obviously couldn't get out of this group what COULD have been gotten out of them. Yes, it is generally considered smart to fire a coach that has just won two consecutive AFC Championships. Very astute, Chimp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 This thread has articulated some very reasonable arguments on both sides, i.e. that Toronto is necessary long-term to keep the team profitable in Buffalo versus Ralph Wilson is doing this just to make himself more money. Is there anyone out there with business or financial experience who can quantify for us the amount of profit the Bills would need to make to be kept in Buffalo with high probability ( > 80% ? ) after Ralph passes? This would have to be compared with relocation costs, stadium expenses, new tax structure, long-term economic viability, etc. in places like Toronto and LA. Once we have a ballpark number we can look at the amount of profit Ralph Wilson generates without the Toronto deal. If it's greater than the amount needed to keep the team in place, then Ralph should spend money on players and coaches up to that limit to make the team more competitive. Otherwise, he could be fairly criticized as being a crass capitalist acting only enhance his family's personal wealth. But without having access to some hard numbers, this seems like a tough question to resolve just by throwing arguments back and forth. Too many unknowns to put together for that kind of analysis to be worth anything. A stadium adds close to $1billion to the cost of the Bills. In this economic environment, no one is getting any govt money to re-locate a football team. $1billion even at 5% is an extra $65m a year in expenses over 30 years. At 8%, its close to $90m per year. I guess someone would have move somewhere where they could make more than $65-90m per year than in Buffalo. The Bills had $206m in revenues last year according to Forbes. New England, Washington, and Dallas, and now the 2 New Yorks look like the only teams that could make more than $65m per year more than the Bills. Philly, who has a relatively new stadium, only made $30m more than the Bills in revenues. In this economy, I think it is a hard sell realistically finding a city that could make more than $65m more than the Bills. But all it takes is one crazy rich guy to think he can do it in LA or somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welcome To Pegulavilla Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 If it can work in Green Bay it can work in Buffalo. Bills fans and the public should buy this team from RW. Green Bay is a small market just like Buffalo but they're not in jeopardy of leaving. What's the difference between the two cities? its not like their economy is any better. What do you think guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 If it can work in Green Bay it can work in Buffalo. Bills fans and the public should buy this team from RW. Green Bay is a small market just like Buffalo but they're not in jeopardy of leaving. What's the difference between the two cities? its not like their economy is any better. What do you think guys? The ownership arrangement in Green Bay is not currently an option for Buffalo, under NFL rules. The NFL owners eliminated that sort of ownership arrangement (with GB grandfathered). Now, that's not to say that the rule couldn't be changed, or an exception be granted...but it is unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagentqb Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Too many unknowns to put together for that kind of analysis to be worth anything. A stadium adds close to $1billion to the cost of the Bills. In this economic environment, no one is getting any govt money to re-locate a football team. $1billion even at 5% is an extra $65m a year in expenses over 30 years. At 8%, its close to $90m per year. I guess someone would have move somewhere where they could make more than $65-90m per year than in Buffalo. The Bills had $206m in revenues last year according to Forbes. New England, Washington, and Dallas, and now the 2 New Yorks look like the only teams that could make more than $65m per year more than the Bills. Philly, who has a relatively new stadium, only made $30m more than the Bills in revenues. In this economy, I think it is a hard sell realistically finding a city that could make more than $65m more than the Bills. But all it takes is one crazy rich guy to think he can do it in LA or somewhere else. very good analysis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WellDressed Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Yes, and we got a new car!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welcome To Pegulavilla Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Thanks for clarifying that Dean. Hey, you never know, it could happen, Roger Goodell is a local boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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