rolly Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 We are now 12 weeks into the season, and we have seen what both stroud and jenkins have added to their new teams. Looking back, did the bills miss the boat on kris jenkins, or is it too early to fully evaluate stroud and his play? Jenkins has been a huge factor for the jets while stroud has been average at best and invisible at times. Bad personnel move or too early to tell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lofton80 Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Stroud has been more than "average at best" in my opinion. Some games like Seattle, Jax and Cleve he has been a force. Perhaps you have forgotten the run defense from 2007. Throw in a tape of last year's Giants game and watch Bradshaw go up the middle repeatedly. Stroud has made a difference. Another important factor is Jenkins injury history. He played very little the last few years due to a back injury. Stoud was hurt last year as well but not with a recurring career threatening injury like Jenkins back issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribo Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Sorry, rolly, but your post lost its creditability when you said Stroud has been "average at best." Let's see if Jenkins is still on his feet by Week 17. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Both. It takes 2 DTs to field a 4-3 D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoring is not hardy Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Stroud has been an absolute beast on a below average d-line. I'll take either though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartyBall4Buffalo Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 The only fair comparison would be if the jets lost shaun ellis, calvin pace and half their secondary for a valid comparison. Honestly stat wise, they're about even 2008 Buffalo 11 21 11 32 2.5 1 forced fumble 7 passes defenced 2008 NY Jets 11 26 9 35 3.5 no forced fumbles 1 pass defenced The difference being the jets haven't lost their best pass rusher, a starting corner, a starting ss, their nickel back, and what would've been their starting olb, during the coruse of the season. I will say this. Jenkins has been a monster for the jets defense. I didn't think he'd fit well making the transition to a 3-4 defense. IMHO the jets secondary can be had though. Overall the jets are ranked 13th in d the Bills 16th. 682 plays from scrimmage against the jets 317.4 ypg at 5.1ypp. 3rd down attempts 144 3rd down given up 56 for a 39% success rate. 69 penalties for 483 yards 28:22 minutes of posession against. 22 forced fumbles 11 recovered. Giving up 21.3points per game The Bills plays from scrimmage 669 at 325.6 ypg at 5.4ypp. 3rd down attempts. 139 49 made. for a 35% success rate against. 52 penalties for 380 yards 29.18 minutes of posession against. 16 forced fumbles 10 recovered. 22.6 points per game against. Basic numbers are for the most part even, across the board the major difference is rush defense. The jets rank 3rd and the Bills rank 20th. I attribute this to lack of personell, and not an indication of who's better stroud or jenkins. Rush defense is about players to the ball, not 1 guy. thru the air the Bills rank 16th The jets rank 26th. One spot above the KC chiefs. The jets allow a 63% completion pct at 7.2 yards per pass with 9 picks on the year. Allowed 15 passing tds. The Bills allow a 60% completion pct at 6.9 yards per pass with 7 picks on the year. Allowed 11 passing tds. The tell tall difference imho between these 2 defenses. The Jets not only have a much better run d, but they have 35 sacks on the year. The Bills a Lousy 18. The Jets rank 3rd in this catagory. The Bills a very lousy 25th. Jenkins yes is the driving force, for the jets d, and inside the numbers would say he's been more impactful then Stroud. However what this defense doesn't do. I don't hold against stroud. I hold against the overall ineffectivness of the front 7. None of our lb's are good in space. Ellison is flat out just a st's type player. Poz has poor lateral speed, and neither he nor mitchell can cover. The D-ends are just laughably bad. Stroud vs Jenkins push come to shove. Jenkins is a little more impactful. Still doesn't change the fact the bills need some serious upgrading in their front 7. Stroud isn't one of those people that need upgrading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Both. It takes 2 DTs to field a 4-3 D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Evaluating a DT is just as difficult as evaluating an O-lineman for most fans. To say Stroud is average at best blows up the whole question you ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Jenkins sure looked good to me against the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Jenkins sure looked good to me against the Bills. And Stroud didn't have the benefit of playing against Duke Preston and Jason Whittle in that game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMIEBUF12 Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 The only fair comparison would be if the jets lost shaun ellis, calvin pace and half their secondary for a valid comparison. Honestly stat wise, they're about even 2008 Buffalo 11 21 11 32 2.5 1 forced fumble 7 passes defenced 2008 NY Jets 11 26 9 35 3.5 no forced fumbles 1 pass defenced The difference being the jets haven't lost their best pass rusher, a starting corner, a starting ss, their nickel back, and what would've been their starting olb, during the coruse of the season. I will say this. Jenkins has been a monster for the jets defense. I didn't think he'd fit well making the transition to a 3-4 defense. IMHO the jets secondary can be had though. Overall the jets are ranked 13th in d the Bills 16th. 682 plays from scrimmage against the jets 317.4 ypg at 5.1ypp. 3rd down attempts 144 3rd down given up 56 for a 39% success rate. 69 penalties for 483 yards 28:22 minutes of posession against. 22 forced fumbles 11 recovered. Giving up 21.3points per game The Bills plays from scrimmage 669 at 325.6 ypg at 5.4ypp. 3rd down attempts. 139 49 made. for a 35% success rate against. 52 penalties for 380 yards 29.18 minutes of posession against. 16 forced fumbles 10 recovered. 22.6 points per game against. Basic numbers are for the most part even, across the board the major difference is rush defense. The jets rank 3rd and the Bills rank 20th. I attribute this to lack of personell, and not an indication of who's better stroud or jenkins. Rush defense is about players to the ball, not 1 guy. thru the air the Bills rank 16th The jets rank 26th. One spot above the KC chiefs. The jets allow a 63% completion pct at 7.2 yards per pass with 9 picks on the year. Allowed 15 passing tds. The Bills allow a 60% completion pct at 6.9 yards per pass with 7 picks on the year. Allowed 11 passing tds. The tell tall difference imho between these 2 defenses. The Jets not only have a much better run d, but they have 35 sacks on the year. The Bills a Lousy 18. The Jets rank 3rd in this catagory. The Bills a very lousy 25th. Jenkins yes is the driving force, for the jets d, and inside the numbers would say he's been more impactful then Stroud. However what this defense doesn't do. I don't hold against stroud. I hold against the overall ineffectivness of the front 7. None of our lb's are good in space. Ellison is flat out just a st's type player. Poz has poor lateral speed, and neither he nor mitchell can cover. The D-ends are just laughably bad. Stroud vs Jenkins push come to shove. Jenkins is a little more impactful. Still doesn't change the fact the bills need some serious upgrading in their front 7. Stroud isn't one of those people that need upgrading. another difference between the two teams is scheme.........the bills play the tampa two......which is notorious for not stopping the run....the only team to ever stop the run using it was tampa when they had warren sapp....i sure miss the days when the bills trotted out "the package" to stop the run(ted washington,pat williams)....go bills! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperKillerRobots Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 another difference between the two teams is scheme.........the bills play the tampa two......which is notorious for not stopping the run....the only team to ever stop the run using it was tampa when they had warren sapp....i sure miss the days when the bills trotted out "the package" to stop the run(ted washington,pat williams)....go bills! Truly a marquee period in Bills history. We had a real, NFL defense back then. One thing I always wanted them to do more often (f-ing Wade) was to play more 4-3 intermingled with their 3-4 base. Good times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 And Stroud didn't have the benefit of playing against Duke Preston and Jason Whittle in that game. True. I noticed that Preston "lost" Jenkins quite a bit in that game (if that's possible) and ended up blocking no one, as Whittle was getting abused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8-8 Forever? Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 the bills completely missed the boat... Jenkins is going to the Pro Bowl this year, and he is young.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kota Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Considering the Bills never went after Jenkins the answer is obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolly Posted November 26, 2008 Author Share Posted November 26, 2008 Ok so maybe I underestimated Stroud's value to this team. He does not have much help around him to free up space, and it is hard to evaluate dt play since they can be quiet on the stat sheet and still be productive. However, I've watched a few jets games this year (including jets-bills) and jenkins makes a noticeable difference. He is consistently blowing up the line, getting sacks, and clogging holes. While i've been ok with the addition of stroud, i'd like to see him make some more game-changing plays. I look at stroud the same way I look at whitner. Solid players, but not playmakers that can change a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 True. I noticed that Preston "lost" Jenkins quite a bit in that game (if that's possible) and ended up blocking no one, as Whittle was getting abused. Derrick Dockery is the guy who looked "lost" in that game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hossage Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Stroud is tremendous. He covers three gaps for the rest of the defense. He pursues with speed, and always stays free without giving up ground. Remember what happened to our defensive line the last time we went down to pittsburgh? Thank your lucky stroud it doesnt look like that again. If we had four strouds, the opposition would have negative 300 yards rushing by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarthur31 Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 We are now 12 weeks into the season, and we have seen what both stroud and jenkins have added to their new teams. Looking back, did the bills miss the boat on kris jenkins, or is it too early to fully evaluate stroud and his play? Jenkins has been a huge factor for the jets while stroud has been average at best and invisible at times. Bad personnel move or too early to tell? Put up some concrete comparisons to prove/disprove your point. I think Stroud is for real and I hope he stays here for awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 it should also be mentioned that jenkins came with a huge contract extension (20M guaranteed i believe)........stroud is playing under his existing deal given the differences in contract and the age of both, i'd rather have stroud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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