drnykterstein Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Do you consider abortion torture? No, not really. Possibly late term abortions, definately not under three months though. (though really that would be murder, not torture) But this question of yours goes both ways... Do you consider forcing a woman to have a baby she doesn't want to birth torture? Giving birth is a painful experience from what I hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justnzane Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I think the pro-torture crowd has been watching too much 24. Unfortunately, there is a place and time for torture. However, these are extreme circumstances where lives may be compromised without the intervention of torture. To say that we can't torture, is to handicap our military in succeeding against the enemy. But again, torture is for the extreme circumstances, not some regular foot soldier captured during battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 That's fine, whatever. If we're going to do that we better rescind all claims of and back out of the Geneva Convention treaties. Right now we just just look like a bunch of "do as I say, not as I do" scumbags who claim not to toture people but then do it anyways. Perhaps you conservatives need to learn to get your heads around the concepts of honor and dignity? Most experts dislike torture because it is considered relatively ineffective. The information gained from torture tends to be bad info. Apparently in real life torture doesn't work the way it does in 24. Of course, there are other reasons to oppose torture, but I assume many here have already discounted those reasons as "unimportant" or "wussy" or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Are you a masochist? According to Tom's post I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berndogg Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Unfortunately, there is a place and time for torture. Why do you think that? As Dean alluded to, most psychologists, sociologists, and even former CIA agents agree that torture is not an effective way to get truthful information, its just an effective way to get people to tell you what you want to hear. For example, if you torture a guy until he says that sadaam was training al queda, he will tell you that sadaam was training al queda even if its not true. Even if you dont care about the human rights of POWs because you assume that they're all terrorists who would kill us anyway, you should still be against torture because it has been scientifically proven to be an ineffective way of getting information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Most experts dislike torture because it is considered relatively ineffective. The information gained from torture tends to be bad info. Apparently in real life torture doesn't work the way it does in 24. Of course, there are other reasons to oppose torture, but I assume many here have already discounted those reasons as "unimportant" or "wussy" or something. Depends on the torture. Torture to inflict pain or fear is generally ineffective (unless you're trying to justify your preconceptions, e.g. the Inquisition). Interrogation methods intended to confuse, tire, or discomfit and break down resistance (e.g. sleep deprivation), on the other hand, can be effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molson_golden2002 Posted November 25, 2008 Author Share Posted November 25, 2008 Depends on the torture. Torture to inflict pain or fear is generally ineffective (unless you're trying to justify your preconceptions, e.g. the Inquisition). Interrogation methods intended to confuse, tire, or discomfit and break down resistance (e.g. sleep deprivation), on the other hand, can be effective. Tom, sleep deprivation is torture, plain and simple. It's f*** horrible and is no good for finding out information. Israeli Prime Minister Meacham Begin was tortured by the KGB that way and said it was as bad as not having air or water. I believe they use to get witches to confess this way. It may sound sort of harmless but its really bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Tom, sleep deprivation is torture, plain and simple. It's f*** horrible and is no good for finding out information. Israeli Prime Minister Meacham Begin was tortured by the KGB that way and said it was as bad as not having air or water. I believe they use to get witches to confess this way. It may sound sort of harmless but its really bad. I'm pretty sure that Tom is saying that sleep deprivation is a kind of torture, that is meant to confuse, and can be effective. As to whether it can or can't be effective, I have little information, so have no formed opinion, nor comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I'm pretty sure that Tom is saying that sleep deprivation is a kind of torture, that is meant to confuse, and can be effective. Uhhh...yeah. I thought that was clear, myself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justnzane Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Uhhh...yeah. I thought that was clear, myself... look at who questioned you in the first place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I'm pretty sure that Tom is saying that sleep deprivation is a kind of torture, that is meant to confuse, and can be effective. As to whether it can or can't be effective, I have little information, so have no formed opinion, nor comment. Maybe... Maybe not... Depends how you read Tom's cryptic post... And yes, I said cryptic... This from the master of the idiotic cryptic post (me)... His exact quote with the two sections highlighted (red): Depends on the torture. Torture to inflict pain or fear is generally ineffective (unless you're trying to justify your preconceptions, e.g. the Inquisition). Interrogation methods intended to confuse, tire, or discomfit and break down resistance (e.g. sleep deprivation), on the other hand, can be effective. Now I normally can see through Tom's alien talk... Afterall, I get accused of the same alien talk. IMO, there is a little ambiquity there in what he meant between: depends on the torture and interrogation methods... IMO, I think of the term interrogation methods as being only legit practices and torture as NOT being an interrogation method under any means. IMO, Tom totally blurred the line skillfully as few can do. I think of it as cut and dry... Black and white... Yet, It is clear that Tom thinks some torture can be effective AND is okay. Me, IMO NO form of torture is okay... Effective or not. Just saying. Again... I am working a double (16 hour shift: 1600 to 0800) and I am obviously sleep deprived! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 If America has a "no torture" policy, then how come my wife's forcing me to watch "Dancing With The Stars" tonight? And you give ME a hard time about taking Tupperware to work? FAG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 "Pro-torture crowd"? I've never heard anyone actually be pro-torture. Just express varying degrees of apathy. Of course, when idiots of your ilk describe such things as "exposing prisoners to women in miniskirts" or "overfeeding prisoners and increasing their BMI to unhealthy levels" as torture, the apathy becomes understandable. Dont forget such "atrocities" as cold rice and loud music. So ok...Ill play. NO TORTURE. None. How does the US then go about obtaining information from combatants in custody? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Maybe... Maybe not... Depends how you read Tom's cryptic post... And yes, I said cryptic... This from the master of the idiotic cryptic post (me)... His exact quote with the two sections highlighted (red): Depends on the torture. Torture to inflict pain or fear is generally ineffective (unless you're trying to justify your preconceptions, e.g. the Inquisition). Interrogation methods intended to confuse, tire, or discomfit and break down resistance (e.g. sleep deprivation), on the other hand, can be effective. Now I normally can see through Tom's alien talk... Afterall, I get accused of the same alien talk. IMO, there is a little ambiquity there in what he meant between: depends on the torture and interrogation methods... IMO, I think of the term interrogation methods as being only legit practices and torture as NOT being an interrogation method under any means. IMO, Tom totally blurred the line skillfully as few can do. I think of it as cut and dry... Black and white... Yet, It is clear that Tom thinks some torture can be effective AND is okay. Me, IMO NO form of torture is okay... Effective or not. Just saying. Again... I am working a double (16 hour shift: 1600 to 0800) and I am obviously sleep deprived! Actually, that reflects less any intentional ambiguity, and more that I fretted over the structure of the second sentence. ("Torture intended to confuse..." just seemed clumsy to me.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molson_golden2002 Posted November 25, 2008 Author Share Posted November 25, 2008 Dont forget such "atrocities" as cold rice and loud music. So ok...Ill play. NO TORTURE. None. How does the US then go about obtaining information from combatants in custody? I know you are a complete douche bag and all, but that's a good question. Actually being nice to them and having the interigators getting to know them is how they start to talk, from what I've read about it. These people are lonely, pathetic people--sort of like you--and are generally influenced by this type of questioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I know you are a complete douche bag and all, but that's a good question. Actually being nice to them and having the interigators getting to know them is how they start to talk, from what I've read about it. These people are lonely, pathetic people--sort of like you--and are generally influenced by this type of questioning. From what youve read about it? Where? Bazooka Joe comics? back of Lucky Charms boxes? Go drown yourself. Putting your face in that bowl of cereal would probably do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomer860 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I know you are a complete douche bag and all, but that's a good question. Actually being nice to them and having the interigators getting to know them is how they start to talk, from what I've read about it. These people are lonely, pathetic people--sort of like you--and are generally influenced by this type of questioning. Its all about feelings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molson_golden2002 Posted November 25, 2008 Author Share Posted November 25, 2008 Its all about feelings No, its all about obtaining information that can be useful to intelligence and is admissable in court Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 No, its all about obtaining information that can be useful to intelligence and is admissable in court WHAT COURT, you !@#$ing idiot? Where do you want to "try" KSM? !@#$ing traffic court? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 No, its all about obtaining information that can be useful to intelligence and is admissable in court "Useful to intelligence" and "admissable in court" are not infrequently incompatible requirements. Which is why we have Gitmo and tribunals to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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