obie_wan Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 We screwed ourselves in the long run by passing over guys like Ngata, a top tier player at the position. This past draft we were 5 spots too low to get a difference maker at DT. What you do is draft great DTs when they're ont eh board and you're on the clock. The good teams realize it. We act sometimes like we're being run by the offense-crazed media and fans instead of a front office who is paying attention to what is making teams better on Sundays. And what makes teams better right now, in this day and age, is great Defensive interiors. Bills passed on Vince Wilfork and Tommie Harris as well. Wilfork was especially painful since he is a big guy who can play the nose and push the pocket (just ask JP) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VOR Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 What's your bet? Are you saying that the JAX Jags, considered to be right in the mix for a Super Bowl appearance, would give up on a guy who could play like Marcus Stroud played for them int he beginning of this decade? It sounds like you think the Bill's FO has some credentials that suggest they are the equal or better talent evaluators when compared to the Jags? Recent history, unfortunately says otherwise. We'd all like to see Stroud have a magic season. But the chances of that are fairly remote. Yeah, but not nearly as remote as Matt Jones becoming a productive WR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 I think Williams has played better so far, but McCargo started to come along at the end of last year and has more potential, he really just needs to be consistent. I think he'll be getting the bulk of the PT next to stroud next year. willams gets run over and pushed around pretty easily. looks good in preseason though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 We screwed ourselves in the long run by passing over guys like Ngata, a top tier player at the position. This past draft we were 5 spots too low to get a difference maker at DT. What you do is draft great DTs when they're on the board and you're on the clock. The good teams realize it. We act sometimes like we're being run by the offense-crazed media and fans instead of a front office who is paying attention to what is making teams better on Sundays. And what makes teams better right now, in this day and age, is great Defensive interiors. What's your bet? Are you saying that the JAX Jags, considered to be right in the mix for a Super Bowl appearance, would give up on a guy who could play like Marcus Stroud played for them int he beginning of this decade? It sounds like you think the Bill's FO has some credentials that suggest they are the equal or better talent evaluators when compared to the Jags? Recent history, unfortunately says otherwise. We'd all like to see Stroud have a magic season. But the chances of that are fairly remote. Both the Niners and the Broncos gave up on Big Ted because of injury worries. And then the Bills gave up on him because of age and weight concerns, after which he dominated in Chicago and then again for NE, particularly in the SB against Carolina (where he was the best the player on the field). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Both the Niners and the Broncos gave up on Big Ted because of injury worries. And then the Bills gave up on him because of age and weight concerns, after which he dominated in Chicago and then again for NE, particularly in the SB against Carolina (where he was the best the player on the field). As you point out, the upside of big guys in the middle is that there are examples of some who are productive well into their 30s. Big Ted may be a little different- IIRC he had a leg issue from very early in his career that he eventually shook off and played effectively for a long time. Those teams giving up on him early seem pretty well justified in figuring he was not going to become a top player. Stroud's situation is in many ways almost a mirror opposite- he came into the league and dominated in his mid-20s, suffering a rapid slide over the past 3 years in production. The team that he gave those best years to went into the offseason shopping him- and it's not like they're a rebuilding team. It makes no sense for a team in the hunt for a Lombardi to shop a DT they feel is going to have a good season- you know better than that and so do the Jags. One thing that is pretty clear from the actions of the Jags is that they don't think Stroud is going to have a great season this year. I know there's a whole lot of Bill's fans making that prediction, but the team who actively shopped him does not think that's the case. Let's hope and pray the Jags are wrong- but I wouldn't bet the fan side of this over the front office of the Jags. They simply know more about Marcus Stroud than any other organization in football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obie_wan Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 As you point out, the upside of big guys in the middle is that there are examples of some who are productive well into their 30s. Big Ted may be a little different- IIRC he had a leg issue from very early in his career that he eventually shook off and played effectively for a long time. Those teams giving up on him early seem pretty well justified in figuring he was not going to become a top player. Stroud's situation is in many ways almost a mirror opposite- he came into the league and dominated in his mid-20s, suffering a rapid slide over the past 3 years in production. The team that he gave those best years to went into the offseason shopping him- and it's not like they're a rebuilding team. It makes no sense for a team in the hunt for a Lombardi to shop a DT they feel is going to have a good season- you know better than that and so do the Jags. One thing that is pretty clear from the actions of the Jags is that they don't think Stroud is going to have a great season this year. I know there's a whole lot of Bill's fans making that prediction, but the team who actively shopped him does not think that's the case. Let's hope and pray the Jags are wrong- but I wouldn't bet the fan side of this over the front office of the Jags. They simply know more about Marcus Stroud than any other organization in football. could be the only way he gets the ankle to heal quickly enough for him to be productive on the field is to use banned substances to speed the recovery. here's hoping he finds some miracle cure that doesn;t get him suspended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Both the Niners and the Broncos gave up on Big Ted because of injury worries. And then the Bills gave up on him because of age and weight concerns, after which he dominated in Chicago and then again for NE, particularly in the SB against Carolina (where he was the best the player on the field). The Bills Big Ted in his prime, developed Pat Williams behind him and let Big Ted go when they had a younger, more athletic replacement in place. That was back when we had a good front office. The new regime let Pat Williams hit free agency without a new contract, watched Vince Willfork and Tommie Harris fall to their lap, and chose a speedy wide receiver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VOR Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 As you point out, the upside of big guys in the middle is that there are examples of some who are productive well into their 30s. Big Ted may be a little different- IIRC he had a leg issue from very early in his career that he eventually shook off and played effectively for a long time. Those teams giving up on him early seem pretty well justified in figuring he was not going to become a top player. Stroud's situation is in many ways almost a mirror opposite- he came into the league and dominated in his mid-20s, suffering a rapid slide over the past 3 years in production. The team that he gave those best years to went into the offseason shopping him- and it's not like they're a rebuilding team. It makes no sense for a team in the hunt for a Lombardi to shop a DT they feel is going to have a good season- you know better than that and so do the Jags. One thing that is pretty clear from the actions of the Jags is that they don't think Stroud is going to have a great season this year. I know there's a whole lot of Bill's fans making that prediction, but the team who actively shopped him does not think that's the case. Sorry but your claim that Stroud "suffer[ed] a rapid slide over the past 3 years in production" is as disingenuous as your claim that the Patriots have 2-1st rounders backing-up Wilfork and that the Bills haven't used high picks on DL, when they've used a 2nd rounder each on Schobel and Kelsay, a 1st rounder on McCargo, and traded for a former 1st rounder in Stroud. Stroud was an All-Pro (which means more than being named a Pro Bowler, which he also was) in 2005, which was 3 seasons ago, and has been injured the past 2 years. However in the those 2 years, he's played 20 games (and he wasn't completely healthy for a good number of them) and had 43 tackles (38 solo) and 5.5 sacks. He hardly fell off the face of the earth as you would have us believe and his drop in production was directly tied to him missing time with his injured ankle. The ankle is still obviously a concern. Let's hope and pray the Jags are wrong- but I wouldn't bet the fan side of this over the front office of the Jags. They simply know more about Marcus Stroud than any other organization in football. Just like they know a lot about Matt Jones, yet they still keep him on the roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 As you point out, the upside of big guys in the middle is that there are examples of some who are productive well into their 30s. Big Ted may be a little different- IIRC he had a leg issue from very early in his career that he eventually shook off and played effectively for a long time. Those teams giving up on him early seem pretty well justified in figuring he was not going to become a top player. Stroud's situation is in many ways almost a mirror opposite- he came into the league and dominated in his mid-20s, suffering a rapid slide over the past 3 years in production. The team that he gave those best years to went into the offseason shopping him- and it's not like they're a rebuilding team. It makes no sense for a team in the hunt for a Lombardi to shop a DT they feel is going to have a good season- you know better than that and so do the Jags. One thing that is pretty clear from the actions of the Jags is that they don't think Stroud is going to have a great season this year. I know there's a whole lot of Bill's fans making that prediction, but the team who actively shopped him does not think that's the case. Let's hope and pray the Jags are wrong- but I wouldn't bet the fan side of this over the front office of the Jags. They simply know more about Marcus Stroud than any other organization in football. Re: Ted, as you'll recall Erik Williams shattered his leg when he slammed him down on a running play in the Dallas/Niners championship game in 94. Williams did all but the same to Phil Hanson the next game, who had to leave the game with a hip injury after the Cowboys ran 9 out of 11 straight plays at him in the third quarter. But I digress. Ted went to Denver, but was never quite right there. Wade knew how good he was, though, and made him his first priority when he left Denver for Buffalo in 1995. Re what Dawgg says below, they didn't really groom Williams to replace Ted, especially since they were paired an awful lot in 2000. Or at least Wade/Butler/AJ didn't groom him to replace Ted. Gregg Williams simply didn't like him. Which brings us to the following: what is the greatest personnel screwup in recent Bills history? Some would argue Pat Williams, and I couldn't disagree. But it is certainly arguable that Ted Washington was a greater screwup given how he performed for Chicago in 01 and NE in 03. The connection between the Big Ted miscue and Stroud? The man who showed Ted the door, Gregg Williams, became the DC of Jax before the Stroud trade. The man who took him in? Dick Jauron, the same guy who collected Ted from the trash heap in 01. Jax may be a good organization overall, but Gregg Williams is a less intelligent person than Jauron by any measure. If he had anything to do with the decision to send Stroud packing (and I have to think he did), that would make me feel pretty good about the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Just like they know a lot about Matt Jones, yet they still keep him on the roster. Only you are dumb enough to consider the Jags' talent evaluation on offense on par with that of their defense. The Jags have boasted one of the most physical defenses in the league for a few years running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VOR Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Only you are dumb enough to consider the Jags' talent evaluation on offense on par with that of their defense. The Jags have boasted one of the most physical defenses in the league for a few years running. We'll see if that still holds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 As you point out, the upside of big guys in the middle is that there are examples of some who are productive well into their 30s. Big Ted may be a little different- IIRC he had a leg issue from very early in his career that he eventually shook off and played effectively for a long time. Those teams giving up on him early seem pretty well justified in figuring he was not going to become a top player. Stroud's situation is in many ways almost a mirror opposite- he came into the league and dominated in his mid-20s, suffering a rapid slide over the past 3 years in production. The team that he gave those best years to went into the offseason shopping him- and it's not like they're a rebuilding team. It makes no sense for a team in the hunt for a Lombardi to shop a DT they feel is going to have a good season- you know better than that and so do the Jags. One thing that is pretty clear from the actions of the Jags is that they don't think Stroud is going to have a great season this year. I know there's a whole lot of Bill's fans making that prediction, but the team who actively shopped him does not think that's the case. Let's hope and pray the Jags are wrong- but I wouldn't bet the fan side of this over the front office of the Jags. They simply know more about Marcus Stroud than any other organization in football. Maybe the Bills don't think he will be great this year either- maybe they are looking beyond this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Only you are dumb enough...... We'll see if that still holds. Bet the ranch on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VOR Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Bet the ranch on it. Go right ahead. Removing Stroud from the equation led to a down year for Henderson, former backup Rob Meier moves into the starting lineup, and despite having a top-10 draft pick, their only DT acquisition was former 1st round bust Jimmy Kennedy. They'll need major help from unproven youngsters Landri and McDaniel. Personally I think they were expecting Dorsey to fall to them and when he didn't, reached for Harvey. But time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 AKC... Stroud will suck and the Bills will go 3-13. Can i put you down for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VOR Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 AKC... Stroud will suck and the Bills will go 3-13. Can i put you down for that? I don't think he's going that far. But I find it curious that with the moves the Bills made over the off-season, these guys think the Bills will be no better than 7-9. It's as if they got rid of good players over the off-season, added scrubs, and won't be getting back any injured players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 I don't think he's going that far. But I find it curious that with the moves the Bills made over the off-season, these guys think the Bills will be no better than 7-9. It's as if they got rid of good players over the off-season, added scrubs, and won't be getting back any injured players. Its not just about what the bills have done. Everyone other than New England has gotten better in the division. The entire AFC looks very tough as well. We will be on the fringe of wildcard contention in the final quarter or the season. Our defense will be better regardless of how Stroud plays. Our offense may be slightly better than last year, but I don't expect much out of a 2nd year QB or 1st year WR. My expectation is that Hardy will start the season in the slot and the punt returner will be opposite Evans early on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VOR Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Its not just about what the bills have done. Everyone other than New England has gotten better in the division. The entire AFC looks very tough as well. We will be on the fringe of wildcard contention in the final quarter or the season. Despite the improvement by the Fins, the Bills will still sweep them. The Jets improved and may be able to take a game. And the Pats might rest their starters in the season finale and allow the Bills to win. So the division record likely will be the same (4-2) as last year. Outside of those games, the Bills play the NFC West, with only the Seahawks being a tough team, and the Bills get them at home to start the season. The teams I can't see them beating are the Jaguars, Chargers, Browns, and Broncos, given the quality and/or location of the games. So that's 10-6. Maybe take another win away and they go 9-7. Our defense will be better regardless of how Stroud plays. Our offense may be slightly better than last year, but I don't expect much out of a 2nd year QB or 1st year WR. My expectation is that Hardy will start the season in the slot and the punt returner will be opposite Evans early on I agree on defense. On offense, I don't think that team can simply ignore Hardy when he lines up on the outside, or that DB's will be able to jam him and keep him on the LOS. That should take pressure off of Evans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obie_wan Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Despite the improvement by the Fins, the Bills will still sweep them. The Jets improved and may be able to take a game. And the Pats might rest their starters in the season finale and allow the Bills to win. So the division record likely will be the same (4-2) as last year. Outside of those games, the Bills play the NFC West, with only the Seahawks being a tough team, and the Bills get them at home to start the season. The teams I can't see them beating are the Jaguars, Chargers, Browns, and Broncos, given the quality and/or location of the games. So that's 10-6. Maybe take another win away and they go 9-7. I agree on defense. On offense, I don't think that team can simply ignore Hardy when he lines up on the outside, or that DB's will be able to jam him and keep him on the LOS. That should take pressure off of Evans. Miami will pound the ball on the ground. It is not a lock the Bills will sweep. Bills will have trouble with all brute force teams since they are small in the middle of the DL, even with their additions. Hardy could not beat the jam in college, why so sure NFL CBs who are bigger, faster and better won't give him trouble and disrupt the timing of the pattern? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Miami will pound the ball on the ground. It is not a lock the Bills will sweep. Bills will have trouble with all brute force teams since they are small in the middle of the DL, even with their additions. Hardy could not beat the jam in college, why so sure NFL CBs who are bigger, faster and better won't give him trouble and disrupt the timing of the pattern? What QB is going to throw to what WRs for the dolphins? As much as you think the Bills suck at those positions, the dolphins are exponentially worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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