Obama is making a big mistake if he allows his surrogates

[SD Jarhead]

From what I am understanding (not Wes Clark's take) is that we should just blindly follow military leadership no matter what. That having military service in one's resume is the best thing possible when choosing a leader.

 

Why can't we as a nation separate emotion from logical thinking? Most normal people are not questioning anyone's service to our nation or the hardship people had to endure for the honor of their country.

 

I for one am just questioning the thinking that military service makes you better qualified than others without military service to lead. We all know that just isn't true. Some of our worst presidents in history were from the military establishment (US Grant comes to mind).

 

Quite a receipe for disaster has been set up with the thinking that the military is "untouchable" when deeming what makes a good leader.

 

I agree with what Swede posted above. I'll also add that I'm not just considering JM's service or how he acted while a POW. Overall the man has led a decent life and raised a family who, to me, embodies an 'All American' family. It has been mentioned that he has children who are serving in the military. Don't you think he understands the cost and risk of committing us to war? Not just from the time he served, but also as a parent? I don't know how you can rationalize that away as being unqualified.

 

Also, I never said or implied that military service is untouchable when considering a leader.

 

Don't we have enough Lawyers in Government now?

[Kelly the Dog]

I agree with what Swede posted above. I'll also add that I'm not just considering JM's service or how he acted while a POW. Overall the man has led a decent life and raised a family who, to me, embodies an 'All American' family. It has been mentioned that he has children who are serving in the military. Don't you think he understands the cost and risk of committing us to war? Not just from the time he served, but also as a parent? I don't know how you can rationalize that away as being unqualified.

By having the All-American family do you meaning leaving his first wife and mother of three of his children after he got back from Vietnam because she was formerly beautiful but now disfigured in a car crash? Then marrying a rich young second wife and forgetting about the first?

[pBills]

Oh no you didn't!!!

[UConn James]

By having the All-American family do you meaning leaving his first wife and mother of three of his children after he got back from Vietnam because she was formerly beautiful but now disfigured in a car crash? Then marrying a rich young second wife and forgetting about the first?

 

To be fair, I know (and know of) quite a few veterans who got divorced after serving in Vietnam. Either divorced the wife they were with previous to the war or marriages not lasting very long afterwards.

 

War changes people. Things happen while the soldier is away (a very broad range from cheating to financial woes to the discommunication that happens). The effects of war on the soldier can have the other partner mindf--king the 'I didn't sign up for this...' argument. Veterans having a difficult time forming and then maintaining relationships. We're seeing this among a lot of soldiers returning from the current wars --- 80% divorce rates in returning units, high percentage of drug use, suicide rate, etc.

 

I have an uncle who was 1/2 mile from the DMZ during Tet who is all kinds of f--ked up, but considering what happened, it's amazing how adjusted he is. He's been divorced and remarried I think 5 times. I have another uncle who was in graves registration who cut off all communication with the family shortly after he came home (by the by, for those who don't know, this was an especially crazy-making job; one guy stationed with him whose family actually ran a mortician business went mad and killed himself like most others with that particular MOS in that particular war).

 

This is in addition to the normal hardships of marriage, which are many. I'm not prepared to say that JMac didn't get divorced for selfish reasons, but I highly doubt that's the entire scope of what caused the divorce.

 

I have heard many vets say that JMac's anger/very short temper issues downgrade him in their eyes as being a good CiC. Not exactly on par with "The Manchurian Candidate" but....

[VABills]

I have heard many vets say that JMac's anger/very short temper issues downgrade him in their eyes as being a good CiC. Not exactly on par with "The Manchurian Candidate" but....

That's my biggest issue with him.

[SilverNRed]

To be fair, I know (and know of) quite a few veterans who got divorced after serving in Vietnam. Either divorced the wife they were with previous to the war or marriages not lasting very long afterwards.

Why be fair? It's nice to know that Obama has supporters who will tell you exactly why John McCain got divorced and what a shallow, horrible human being he is for doing it without ever meeting the man and obviously without knowing him during that period in his life.

 

But it's OK! It helps Obama so it's OK!!!!

 

This is in addition to the normal hardships of marriage, which are many. I'm not prepared to say that JMac didn't get divorced for selfish reasons, but I highly doubt that's the entire scope of what caused the divorce.

Yeah, but who cares? This is for Obama. He's bringing Change to this country and Hope to millions! Why worry about his supporters abandoning any moral standards they might have had when they attack McCain?

 

[PastaJoe]

I wonder if most McCain supporters know the history of his first marriage. And I wonder if Ross Perot is still upset with him.

 

 

On Christmas Eve 1969, Carol McCain was driving in snowy, icy conditions. Approaching an intersection on an isolated country road, she skidded and collided with a telephone pole, was thrown from the car into the snow, and went into shock. Some time later she was found and taken to Bryn Mawr Hospital; she had two smashed legs, a broken pelvis, broken arm, and ruptured spleen. She spent six months in the hospital, and over the course of the next two years had 23 operations as well as extensive physical therapy. She did not tell her husband about the accident in her letters to him, believing he already had enough to worry about, and the U.S. State Department told a surgeon who operated upon her not to mention anything to the press, lest it worsen the treatment for John McCain. Businessman and POW advocate Ross Perot paid for her medical care and she remained grateful to him.

 

The McCains were reunited upon his release from captivity on March 14, 1973. She was now four inches (ten centimeters) shorter, on crutches, and substantially heavier than when he had last seen her. During John McCain's assignment as Executive Officer and Commanding Officer of the VA-174 squadron located at Naval Air Station Cecil Field outside Jacksonville, Florida, the McCains' marriage began to falter; he had extramarital affairs.

 

John McCain's next assignment was to the Senate Liaison Office within the Navy's Office of Legislative Affairs. The McCains separated briefly, then rejoined. His job was aided by an active social life the couple conducted, entertaining Navy, government, and other people three to four nights a week at their Alexandria, Virginia home. During this time she worked for Congressman John H. Rousselot. By 1979, the McCains were still living together. In April 1979, John McCain met and began an extramarital relationship with Cindy Lou Hensley, an Arizona special education teacher and Hensley & Co. heiress. Carol McCain was described by friends as being in shock from the developments. The McCains separated later in 1979; Carol McCain accepted a divorce in February of 1980.

 

John McCain would later say, "My marriage's collapse was attributable to my own selfishness and immaturity more than it was to Vietnam, and I cannot escape blame by pointing a finger at the war. The blame was entirely mine." Carol McCain would later say: "The breakup of our marriage was not caused by my accident or Vietnam or any of those things. I don't know that it might not have happened if John had never been gone. I attribute it more to John turning 40 and wanting to be 25 again than I do to anything else." John McCain's biographer, Robert Timberg believes that "Vietnam did play a part, perhaps not the major part, but more than a walk-on." According to Carol, her husband's five-year captivity in Vietnam had left him wanting to "make up for lost time," and John put it this way: "I had changed, she had changed....People who have been apart that much change." Carol’s three children were initially upset with John McCain about the divorce, but later reconciled.

 

Ross Perot would later say, "After [John McCain] came home, Carol walked with a limp. So he threw her over for a poster girl with big money from Arizona and the rest is history."

[Fastback]

By having the All-American family do you meaning leaving his first wife and mother of three of his children after he got back from Vietnam because she was formerly beautiful but now disfigured in a car crash? Then marrying a rich young second wife and forgetting about the first?

 

No way Kelly...I didn't know that!

[Fastback]

I wonder if most McCain supporters know the history of his first marriage. And I wonder if Ross Perot is still upset with him.

 

 

On Christmas Eve 1969, Carol McCain was driving in snowy, icy conditions. Approaching an intersection on an isolated country road, she skidded and collided with a telephone pole, was thrown from the car into the snow, and went into shock. Some time later she was found and taken to Bryn Mawr Hospital; she had two smashed legs, a broken pelvis, broken arm, and ruptured spleen. She spent six months in the hospital, and over the course of the next two years had 23 operations as well as extensive physical therapy. She did not tell her husband about the accident in her letters to him, believing he already had enough to worry about, and the U.S. State Department told a surgeon who operated upon her not to mention anything to the press, lest it worsen the treatment for John McCain. Businessman and POW advocate Ross Perot paid for her medical care and she remained grateful to him.

 

The McCains were reunited upon his release from captivity on March 14, 1973. She was now four inches (ten centimeters) shorter, on crutches, and substantially heavier than when he had last seen her. During John McCain's assignment as Executive Officer and Commanding Officer of the VA-174 squadron located at Naval Air Station Cecil Field outside Jacksonville, Florida, the McCains' marriage began to falter; he had extramarital affairs.

 

John McCain's next assignment was to the Senate Liaison Office within the Navy's Office of Legislative Affairs. The McCains separated briefly, then rejoined. His job was aided by an active social life the couple conducted, entertaining Navy, government, and other people three to four nights a week at their Alexandria, Virginia home. During this time she worked for Congressman John H. Rousselot. By 1979, the McCains were still living together. In April 1979, John McCain met and began an extramarital relationship with Cindy Lou Hensley, an Arizona special education teacher and Hensley & Co. heiress. Carol McCain was described by friends as being in shock from the developments. The McCains separated later in 1979; Carol McCain accepted a divorce in February of 1980.

 

John McCain would later say, "My marriage's collapse was attributable to my own selfishness and immaturity more than it was to Vietnam, and I cannot escape blame by pointing a finger at the war. The blame was entirely mine." Carol McCain would later say: "The breakup of our marriage was not caused by my accident or Vietnam or any of those things. I don't know that it might not have happened if John had never been gone. I attribute it more to John turning 40 and wanting to be 25 again than I do to anything else." John McCain's biographer, Robert Timberg believes that "Vietnam did play a part, perhaps not the major part, but more than a walk-on." According to Carol, her husband's five-year captivity in Vietnam had left him wanting to "make up for lost time," and John put it this way: "I had changed, she had changed....People who have been apart that much change." Carol’s three children were initially upset with John McCain about the divorce, but later reconciled.

 

Ross Perot would later say, "After [John McCain] came home, Carol walked with a limp. So he threw her over for a poster girl with big money from Arizona and the rest is history."

 

Guess what? He accepts responsibility for being a schithead at that point in his life instead of rationalizing it away. What the fug is wrong with that? That is exactly the type of person I hope would become the President. We all make mistakes and he has acknowlegeded that. If this is such a catasrophic event for his ex-wife then why is she supporting him for President?

 

Or do you support the Clinton example of how you deal with infidelity?

[PastaJoe]

Guess what? He accepts responsibility for being a schithead at that point in his life instead of rationalizing it away. What the fug is wrong with that? That is exactly the type of person I hope would become the President. We all make mistakes and he has acknowlegeded that. If this is such a catasrophic event for his ex-wife then why is she supporting him for President?

 

Or do you support the Clinton example of how you deal with infidelity?

 

I didn't say I had a problem with it, my question was whether McCain supporters know about it, especially evangelicals, since they're the ones who tend to scrutinize other people's personal activities.

[Kelly the Dog]

Why be fair? It's nice to know that Obama has supporters who will tell you exactly why John McCain got divorced and what a shallow, horrible human being he is for doing it without ever meeting the man and obviously without knowing him during that period in his life.

 

But it's OK! It helps Obama so it's OK!!!!

 

 

Yeah, but who cares? This is for Obama. He's bringing Change to this country and Hope to millions! Why worry about his supporters abandoning any moral standards they might have had when they attack McCain?

 

Actually, I have met the man, however briefly. It has nothing to do with Obama. I lived in Phoenix for 11 years, he was my Senator, and I had a LOT of friends, including my closest friend, who worked for Arizona Senators at that time and were very active in politics. I know quite a bit about McCain, and in my opinion, as well as hordes of others, he is a scumbag, ALWAYS out for John McCain. For years on this board I have been railing on McCain, who, besides Bush, is probably my least favorite politician because of what I have seen of him and know of him. Word around Phoenix at that point was that his own staff hated him because he was a slimeball. He's VERY good, however, at promoting John McCain.

 

I do give him great credit for his courage and service as a war hero, which he very much was.

[Fastback]

Actually, I have met the man, however briefly. It has nothing to do with Obama. I lived in Phoenix for 11 years, he was my Senator, and I had a LOT of friends, including my closest friend, who worked for Arizona Senators at that time and were very active in politics. I know quite a bit about McCain, and in my opinion, as well as hordes of others, he is a scumbag, ALWAYS out for John McCain. For years on this board I have been railing on McCain, who, besides Bush, is probably my least favorite politician because of what I have seen of him and know of him. Word around Phoenix at that point was that his own staff hated him because he was a slimeball. He's VERY good, however, at promoting John McCain.

 

I do give him great credit for his courage and service as a war hero, which he very much was.

 

Care to expound? If he is, as you say, all about himself then why hasn't he exploited his childrens service and his adoption of a black (skin tone) daughter? I have seen the opposite. If he is the person you say he is then why not toe the party line over the years? He has regularly pissed off those in his own party for taking positions not in lockstep with what the base wants. Clearly, doing whats expected would've positioned him much more favorably for a run at the Presidency with core Conservatives whose vote he needs. While he isn't always right, I respect that he has crossed party lines when he thought it was in the best interests of the nation. That, to me, is the mark of a true leader.

 

The 'word around Phoenix' huh? Who were you talking to? Blzrul? Nice job of character asassination without any specifics.

 

Word is on PP&P is the KTFABLefty isn't so balanced...

[Kelly the Dog]

Care to expound? If he is, as you say, all about himself then why hasn't he exploited his childrens service and his adoption of a black (skin tone) daughter? I have seen the opposite. If he is the person you say he is then why not toe the party line over the years? He has regularly pissed off those in his own party for taking positions not in lockstep with what the base wants. Clearly, doing whats expected would've positioned him much more favorably for a run at the Presidency with core Conservatives whose vote he needs. While he isn't always right, I respect that he has crossed party lines when he thought it was in the best interests of the nation. That, to me, is the mark of a true leader.

 

The 'word around Phoenix' huh? Who were you talking to? Blzrul? Nice job of character asassination without any specifics.

 

Word is on PP&P is the KTFABLefty isn't so balanced...

No one, obviously, from his staff is going to say something in print that can be linked. You can believe me or not, I don't care. I know what I know, as well as what I hear second hand that cannot be confirmed. Here is a rather believable article on him, and his temper and vindictiveness, which provides an equal amount of praise and criticism for him.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...1902224_pf.html

[In space no one can hear]

By having the All-American family do you meaning leaving his first wife and mother of three of his children after he got back from Vietnam because she was formerly beautiful but now disfigured in a car crash? Then marrying a rich young second wife and forgetting about the first?

 

 

Priceless post, and accurate.

 

But hey, didn't his new trophy wife help bankroll his campaigns? Doesn't this qualify as family values according to these McFilthy lovers?

[SilverNRed]

Priceless post, and accurate.

 

But hey, didn't his new trophy wife help bankroll his campaigns? Doesn't this qualify as family values according to these McFilthy lovers?

Yeah, you scored some serious points the last time you tried the "trophy wife" thing on this board.

 

Link

 

"McFilthy lovers"? Gosh, thank you for sharing your insight and razor sharp wit with us all.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Don't you think he understands the cost and risk of committing us to war? Not just from the time he served, but also as a parent? I don't know how you can rationalize that away as being unqualified.

 

Also, I never said or implied that military service is untouchable when considering a leader.

 

Don't we have enough Lawyers in Government now?

 

No. (Blue)

 

I just don't trust the military to do make the right choice. (Red)

 

"Socialism" so scares Americans, that they will no doubt cut off my nose to spite your face.

 

If history is any indication... I think America will go with the "military man" in November... Adn the outlook is grim... IMO, historically, they just don't make good Presidents.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Just imagine if Obama was sitting on the flight deck during the USS Forrestal fire... Everybody would have him "pushing the button" on the accident... Not some "electrical abnormality." A liberal, say it was Kerry, would surely have been painted a "phuck-up."

 

Not saying crazy stuff happens... Not saying McCain is a phuck up... We will never know how much could have or was "covered up" during that era... Now mix in family background... Things operate much differently today, or maybe they don't (Pat Tillman). They just tend to get exposed better/more?

 

Maybe it is my age and background?... I just don't trust the military, especially in the 1950's and 1960's... Heck, even within my own career of today!

 

Not trying to start a pissing contest with anybody and mean no disrespect... Just my opinion.

 

Lambaste me all you want if people feel the urge. Paint me as a malcontent that went to school and earned an education on his father's DAV benefits... Biting the hand that educated and feeds me... You know, all that jazz... I am not drinking the Kool-Aid and wearing the patriotic glasses at times.

 

/rant.

[UConn James]

I wonder if most McCain supporters know the history of his first marriage. And I wonder if Ross Perot is still upset with him.

 

 

On Christmas Eve 1969, Carol McCain was driving in snowy, icy conditions. Approaching an intersection on an isolated country road, she skidded and collided with a telephone pole, was thrown from the car into the snow, and went into shock. Some time later she was found and taken to Bryn Mawr Hospital; she had two smashed legs, a broken pelvis, broken arm, and ruptured spleen. She spent six months in the hospital, and over the course of the next two years had 23 operations as well as extensive physical therapy. She did not tell her husband about the accident in her letters to him, believing he already had enough to worry about, and the U.S. State Department told a surgeon who operated upon her not to mention anything to the press, lest it worsen the treatment for John McCain. Businessman and POW advocate Ross Perot paid for her medical care and she remained grateful to him.

 

The McCains were reunited upon his release from captivity on March 14, 1973. She was now four inches (ten centimeters) shorter, on crutches, and substantially heavier than when he had last seen her. During John McCain's assignment as Executive Officer and Commanding Officer of the VA-174 squadron located at Naval Air Station Cecil Field outside Jacksonville, Florida, the McCains' marriage began to falter; he had extramarital affairs.

 

John McCain's next assignment was to the Senate Liaison Office within the Navy's Office of Legislative Affairs. The McCains separated briefly, then rejoined. His job was aided by an active social life the couple conducted, entertaining Navy, government, and other people three to four nights a week at their Alexandria, Virginia home. During this time she worked for Congressman John H. Rousselot. By 1979, the McCains were still living together. In April 1979, John McCain met and began an extramarital relationship with Cindy Lou Hensley, an Arizona special education teacher and Hensley & Co. heiress. Carol McCain was described by friends as being in shock from the developments. The McCains separated later in 1979; Carol McCain accepted a divorce in February of 1980.

 

John McCain would later say, "My marriage's collapse was attributable to my own selfishness and immaturity more than it was to Vietnam, and I cannot escape blame by pointing a finger at the war. The blame was entirely mine." Carol McCain would later say: "The breakup of our marriage was not caused by my accident or Vietnam or any of those things. I don't know that it might not have happened if John had never been gone. I attribute it more to John turning 40 and wanting to be 25 again than I do to anything else." John McCain's biographer, Robert Timberg believes that "Vietnam did play a part, perhaps not the major part, but more than a walk-on." According to Carol, her husband's five-year captivity in Vietnam had left him wanting to "make up for lost time," and John put it this way: "I had changed, she had changed....People who have been apart that much change." Carol’s three children were initially upset with John McCain about the divorce, but later reconciled.

 

Ross Perot would later say, "After [John McCain] came home, Carol walked with a limp. So he threw her over for a poster girl with big money from Arizona and the rest is history."

 

Did you type that all yourself or is this your regular schpiel of thinly veiled plagiarism / no attribution? This is against the TOS, you know, and you and Steely do it all the time. Not to say that it's untruth, but it begs the question, where'd you get this from and why are you hesitant to share sources?

 

[bold] So... it wasn't caused by Vietnam, but it was caused by the conditions that his service/capture in Vietnam created? You can't divorce experience from a man.

 

When my brother came back from Afghanistan with PTSD, wifey had a boyfriend and "wasn't happy." They separated. He moved in with us, got a girlfriend who was a dead ringer for his ex, plus a Tramp Stamp and a drinking habit. Got a puppy of the same breed he had with his ex, even tho he didn't have the resources to take care of it. He said he just "needed to replace what [he] lost." I said (to myself) that I thought he was making huge mistakes in his personal life... which is playing out right now. Point is, that sh-- happens, experiences change fundamental personality/outlook which leads to dumbf--k concepts like "wanting to make up for lost time" entering the mind and directing action, usually resulting in chaos. Divorce, besides the main causes of cheating or financial problems, is often caused by collective petty sh-- like one person always leaving the caps off of the toothpaste, not shutting cabinet doors the whole way, et cetera.

 

I'm not trying to be JMac's best friend here, nor am I defending his actions; speaking for myself, I don't like him. But when you walk a mile in his shoes and the sh-- that happened to him, it changes you fundamentally. In truth, to people who understand what returning vets go thru, it would have been a bigger surprise if he had stayed married to the first wife, car accident or not.

[PastaJoe]

Did you type that all yourself or is this your regular schpiel of thinly veiled plagiarism / no attribution? This is against the TOS, you know, and you and Steely do it all the time. Not to say that it's untruth, but it begs the question, where'd you get this from and why are you hesitant to share sources?

 

I'm not hesitant, I just assumed posters here didn't need to be spoonfed. When you don't like the message, attack the messenger.

 

http://www.azcentral.com/news/specials/mcc...o-chapter5.html

 

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...751C0A9669C8B63

 

http://www.newsweek.com/id/94827/

 

http://www.azcentral.com/news/specials/mcc...o-chapter4.html

[Chilly]

If history is any indication... I think America will go with the "military man" in November... Adn the outlook is grim... IMO, historically, they just don't make good Presidents.

 

lol... what an ignorant statement. Only 11 presidents haven't have some kind of military experience. So, "historically", the only possible good presidents in the history of the country were:

 

- Clinton

- FDR

- Hoover

- Coolidge

- Harding

- Wilson

- Taft

- Cleveland

- Van Buren

- Adams

- Adams