Chilly Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 I'm sure Osama Bin Laden hates Switzerland's freedoms, too. You're a bigger moron than I had previously feared, which was substantial. That's like saying it wasn't rape because you pulled out. I suppose if we never set foot in the middle east, never went into Saudi Arabia, never gave billions or jets to Israel they would have bombed us out of nowhere because they hate our freedoms. Seriously, that's crazier logic than bin laden's himself. Its amazing that people here can call you a "useful idiot" for pointing out that Bin Laden hated us for our policies in Saudi Arabia, and that 9/11 was in large part a result of those policies. And RkFast claiming they hate us for our freedom, wow. There is absolutely ZERO evidence that such a claim is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew in CA Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 Uhhh...he DOES "hate us for our freedoms." That is part of it, but I dont cite it becuase its as freaking stupid to say in soundbyte form as "we had it coming." And one HUGE hole in that little theory...we pulled OUT of a lot of the Holy Land that bin Laden what forced us "have it coming." Setting up bases in Saudi Arabia and support for that regime (and other un-Islamic ones, by his definition) was OBL's main reason. They hate us for our freedoms?? That sounds more like a "useful idiot" to me. Where did you get that, Rumsfeld? And what does your last sentence even mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 They essentially believe in a perverse death cult. I don't believe what they say. I don't even believe them when they're trying to tell me what they believe. I basically think they'll say anything to justify their own sick need to kill people who don't think the way they do. They're pretty famous for spinning defeats into great victories for their cause (not to mention turning OBL's pathetic performance against the Soviets into the birth of a great military leader). If a worldwide caliphate (with Bin Laden's specific brand of Islam, of course) is the best way for all mankind to live, it's hard to reconcile that the fact that the wealthiest, most successful nation in the world is the non-Muslim USA. We're too big to be off their radar and our existence undermines their beliefs. Their screwy beliefs are different from the simple concept of Heaven in that what they believe is strongly tied into what happens here on earth. Doing anything to undermine their beliefs (even inadvertantly) can cause the worst ones to wig out and chop off a head or two. A guy who believes there's a Heaven and Hell probably won't be much affected by meeting a more successful person who doesn't. It's not, but at the same time I wonder if there's any way to placate them. Decades ago, when the issue was nationalism in the Middle East, maybe we could. Now that it's Islamic extremism, I doubt we can get on their good side. That's cool. At least you make an argument to support your beliefs. You must know, however, that there are all kinds of insane religious beliefs around the world. Big and small. To me, what he says makes complete sense. I don't believe it, I think it's stupid, he is one of few people I would kill myself on this planet, but it's very possible to believe him, however ridiculous it is. It makes zero sense to me, zero, that if we never bothered him, never entered the Middle East, totally left them alone to believe whatever it is they wish to believe, that he would blow up our cities because he hated our beliefs. No sense whatsoever. Nada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 Its amazing that people here can call you a "useful idiot" for pointing out that Bin Laden hated us for our policies in Saudi Arabia, and that 9/11 was in large part a result of those policies. Wacka Molson is not a person. It's a pamphlet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacka Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 OBL and the rest of the Islamofascists want everyone who is not their brand of Islam DEAD. Since we have freedoms to do basically what we want, we are the decadent infidels. They want to get rid of the non-Muslims first, then they will go after the other Muslims who don't believe exactly as they do. If you don't realize that, you are a useful idiot. I have said before and will say again . They are like the Terminator: "Listen. And understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead. " Replace Treminator with terrorist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 Lets see, detailed study, or the terminator? Gee, I wonder who I'll believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNRed Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 That's cool. At least you make an argument to support your beliefs. You must know, however, that there are all kinds of insane religious beliefs around the world. Big and small.I do indeed. To me, what he says makes complete sense. I don't believe it, I think it's stupid, he is one of few people I would kill myself on this planet, but it's very possible to believe him, however ridiculous it is. It makes zero sense to me, zero, that if we never bothered him, never entered the Middle East, totally left them alone to believe whatever it is they wish to believe, that he would blow up our cities because he hated our beliefs. No sense whatsoever. Nada. To me it doesn't make sense to strap a bomb to a pregnant woman or a kid so that you can blow them up to kill your enemies. To me it doesn't make sense that the only way to prove the superiority of your beliefs is to act violently against people who threaten them. (Certainly these things don't make sense to you either.) Islamic extremists don't make sense. They exist the way the Westboro Baptist Church exists (America tolerates gays so let's protest funerals for U.S. soldiers and Heath Ledger). They're so far out there that any solution we can come up with for their crazy problems probably won't satisfy them, because they aren't rational in the first place. I would absolutely love if the U.S. hadn't made so many mistakes in the Middle East over the past few decades. But there's no practical way to say we could have been uninvolved in the region when we've been tied to it in one way or another since the 18th century. And whatever problems we cause there pale in comparison to the problems caused by their own in-fighting and corrupt rulers. Even the non-extremists in the region give the USA and/or Jews a disproportionate amount of blame for their problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 Im AGREEING WITH YOU. Im AGREEING with you that the "Soundbyte Mentality" is !@#$ing stupid via a vis 9/11, be it "they hate us for our freedom" or "we had it coming." You worded it poorly then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 What do you do? The crux of the matter (with the extremists) is the existence of Isreal after the war, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 That's cool. At least you make an argument to support your beliefs. You must know, however, that there are all kinds of insane religious beliefs around the world. Big and small. To me, what he says makes complete sense. I don't believe it, I think it's stupid, he is one of few people I would kill myself on this planet, but it's very possible to believe him, however ridiculous it is. It makes zero sense to me, zero, that if we never bothered him, never entered the Middle East, totally left them alone to believe whatever it is they wish to believe, that he would blow up our cities because he hated our beliefs. No sense whatsoever. Nada. And this is where you are off a bit. AQ is not just Bin Laden, and Zawahiri's influence and planning is always underestimated. Bin Laden brings the face to AQ, while Zawahiri brings the action and the zeal to drive the Westerners out. Thus, you have to go back to the roots of Islamic Brotherhood to see what the beef is, and it's not just about the physical presence of Westerners. You may snicker at the notion that they hate our freedoms, but it is a real fear that our freedoms will infiltrate their societies and corrupt their population. It's not just our presence they loathe, but the spectre of Godless American MTV bringing spring break to Ryadh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 You may snicker at the notion that they hate our freedoms, but it is a real fear that our freedoms will infiltrate their societies and corrupt their population. It's not just our presence they loathe, but the spectre of Godless American MTV bringing spring break to Ryadh. I don't mean this in a way that is calling you out, but, link? All of the serious material that I've read on the issue does not point to this being the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNRed Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 What do you do? The crux of the matter (with the extremists) is the existence of Isreal after the war, right? I would say no. If Arab nationalism was the issue, you could point to Israel's existence. Islamic extremism is lashing out at just about everything across the world (cartoons in Denmark??). The crux of the matter with the extremists is that they're nuts, they're violent, and there are a lot of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNRed Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 And this is where you are off a bit. AQ is not just Bin Laden, and Zawahiri's influence and planning is always underestimated. Bin Laden brings the face to AQ, while Zawahiri brings the action and the zeal to drive the Westerners out. Thus, you have to go back to the roots of Islamic Brotherhood to see what the beef is, and it's not just about the physical presence of Westerners. You may snicker at the notion that they hate our freedoms, but it is a real fear that our freedoms will infiltrate their societies and corrupt their population. It's not just our presence they loathe, but the spectre of Godless American MTV bringing spring break to Ryadh. And you could make a pretty strong argument that OBL is Zawahiri's puppet. OBL changed more from meeting Zawahiri than Zawahiri did from meeting OBL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacka Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 I call 'em as i see 'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 I don't mean this in a way that is calling you out, but, link? All of the serious material that I've read on the issue does not point to this being the case. Have you been looking at the writings about 9/11, or all of Zawahiri's activities dating back to Sadat's assasination? Look up the Luxor massacre and the Islamabad Embassy bombing. The roots of his terrorism were aimed against local governments, but by 1998, the tone was definitely anti-American. A brilliant strategic move by Zawahiri, btw, after public opinion turned against him for spreading terror in Egypt & Pakistan. By galvanizing hatred towards the US, he restored AQ's profile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 And this is where you are off a bit. AQ is not just Bin Laden, and Zawahiri's influence and planning is always underestimated. Bin Laden brings the face to AQ, while Zawahiri brings the action and the zeal to drive the Westerners out. Thus, you have to go back to the roots of Islamic Brotherhood to see what the beef is, and it's not just about the physical presence of Westerners. You may snicker at the notion that they hate our freedoms, but it is a real fear that our freedoms will infiltrate their societies and corrupt their population. It's not just our presence they loathe, but the spectre of Godless American MTV bringing spring break to Ryadh. I don't deny at all that is an element. Nor do I just assume that bin Laden is the whole issue. But I also don;t believe for a nanosecond that if we kept completely out of the Middle East and only a couple of our TV shows were seen on a few satellite dishes, that planes would have been driven into the WTC because of MTV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 I don't deny at all that is an element. Nor do I just assume that bin Laden is the whole issue. But I also don;t believe for a nanosecond that if we kept completely out of the Middle East and only a couple of our TV shows were seen on a few satellite dishes, that planes would have been driven into the WTC because of MTV. Do you ever wonder why in addition to buildings and military barracks they also targeted discotheques? US has been in Mid East for over a century. Why did it suddenly become a problem in mid'90s? There was obviously no problem with the help to drive the Soviets out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew in CA Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 Do you ever wonder why in addition to buildings and military barracks they also targeted discotheques? US has been in Mid East for over a century. Why did it suddenly become a problem in mid'90s? There was obviously no problem with the help to drive the Soviets out. What was going on in the 19th century? Also, I don't know their reasoning for sure, but I bet the Taliban felt about our help the same way we did about the Soviets in WWII- lesser of two evils, or the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 Do you ever wonder why in addition to buildings and military barracks they also targeted discotheques? US has been in Mid East for over a century. Why did it suddenly become a problem in mid'90s? There was obviously no problem with the help to drive the Soviets out. We have had the same freedoms for 200 years. And I am not agreeing with their logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 We have had the same freedoms for 200 years. And I am not agreeing with their logic. But MTV's Spring Break is much younger. Still, it's twisting logic to give any credence that US presence in Mid East contributed to the attacks. While it's a stated reason, Zawahiri grabbed onto it after he failed in his bid to root out home grown infidels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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