Whitner on Cold Pizza

[bizell]

Greenway was on IR the whole season and Booby Carpenter didn't record a tackle until Week 9. By that time Donte Whitner had about 50 tackles, a pick, some great pass breakups and an NFL Rookie of the Month award under his belt. Yet somehow his future is bleak and Carpenter could step in for Spikes?

 

And arguing that Whitner would have been available at 15 is like arguing that Doug Flutie would have been the Titans. Plausible theory, but no possible way to prove. Yet the tenacity and self-assuredness I've seen people argue both scenarios is impressive. But in the end, what's the point? We have what he have and being pissed about it is an exercise in futility.

 

heh. way to put a hole in his theory. :clap:

[Dawgg]

Whitner may never develop into an all-pro safety, but your willingness to write off the possibility (and therefore use it as justification for the bad pick argument) is interesting considering you seem to be giving the benefit of the doubt to two LBs who didn't do anything their rookie year.

 

Like I said, it's my opinion that Whitner is and never will be in the same league as Pro Bowlers like Sean Taylor, Polomalu and Roy Williams. With that being said, let's see what happens. I am stating my opinion and if I end up being wrong, I will eat the requisite crow... with BBQ sauce!

 

Greenway was on IR the whole season and Booby Carpenter didn't record a tackle until Week 9. By that time Donte Whitner had about 50 tackles, a pick, some great pass breakups and an NFL Rookie of the Month award under his belt. Yet somehow his future is bleak and Carpenter could step in for Spikes?

 

Did I say Whitner's future was bleak? Nope. I simply said that if they traded down to #15 and missed out on him, getting one of the players I mentioned PLUS a second round pick isn't exactly a consolation prize.

 

Regarding Greenway, the fact that he was on IR due to a freak injury during the preseason doesn't automatically make Whitner a better pick. He was one of the top linebacking prospects coming into the draft and with his speed, would have fit the Cover 2 defense pefectly.

 

Bobby Carpenter didn't start right away because (a) the Cowboys were deep at LB and (b) Parcells favors veterans players. Did you watch their games the second half of the season? He came on strong when given a chance, culminated by a stellar performance as a starter in their playoff loss to the Seahawks. With Wade coaching them now, watch out for him this year.

 

And as I said, Tamba Hali and Joseph were decent options as well... of course this is all assuming IF Whitner was off the board at that point.

[Dawgg]

Haha actually, if you do the math, the Bills actions demonstrated that they have this view:

 

Whitner + McCargo is more valuable than:

 

Pick #15+ 2 2nd rounders + a high 3rd. By refusing to trade down, they lost out on an extra 2nd. And by trading back into the first, they traded away a high 3rd.

 

Take a look at how deep this draft was... if you believe that Whitner and McCargo carry more value than those picks, especially for a team in REBUILDING mode, then we'll agree to disagree.

 

Bills seem to deem "Whitner+McCargo" as a better combination than "Bunckley/Ngata+a 2tier SS".

[syhuang]

Did I say Whitner's future was bleak? Nope. I simply said that if they traded down to #15 and missed out on him, getting one of the players I mentioned PLUS a second round pick isn't exactly a consolation prize.

 

Regarding Greenway, the fact that he was on IR due to a freak injury during the preseason doesn't automatically make Whitner a better pick. He was one of the top linebacking prospects coming into the draft and with his speed, would have fit the Cover 2 defense pefectly.

 

Bobby Carpenter didn't start right away because (a) the Cowboys were deep at LB and (b) Parcells favors veterans players. Did you watch their games the second half of the season? He came on strong when given a chance, culminated by a stellar performance as a starter in their playoff loss to the Seahawks. With Wade coaching them now, watch out for him this year.

 

And as I said, Tamba Hali and Joseph were decent options as well... of course this is all assuming IF Whitner was off the board at that point.

Just a reminder, all of above has nothing to do with "Whitner was picked too early" statement. You only list what Bills could have done differently and, in your opinion, you like these scenarios more. However, there is still no proof that Whitner was picked too early and it seems like the "too early" statement is your own opinion again.

[syhuang]

Haha actually, if you do the math, the Bills actions demonstrated that they have this view:

 

Whitner + McCargo is more valuable than:

 

Pick #15+ 2 2nd rounders + a high 3rd. By refusing to trade down, they lost out on an extra 2nd. And by trading back into the first, they traded away a high 3rd.

 

Take a look at how deep this draft was... if you believe that Whitner and McCargo carry more value than those picks, especially for a team in REBUILDING mode, then we'll agree to disagree.

I don't see one is obviously better than the other. Of course, you can have a different opinion.

 

BTW, why do you keep ignoring people's questions on your "too early" statement? Where is your proof that Whitner was picked too early? Is it just your opinion based on mock drafts? I assume you do know the difference between "Whitner was picked too early" and "Bills could have traded down".

[stuckincincy]

Like I said, it's my opinion that Whitner is and never will be in the same league as Pro Bowlers like Sean Taylor, Polomalu and Roy Williams. With that being said, let's see what happens. I am stating my opinion and if I end up being wrong, I will eat the requisite crow... with BBQ sauce!

Did I say Whitner's future was bleak? Nope. I simply said that if they traded down to #15 and missed out on him, getting one of the players I mentioned PLUS a second round pick isn't exactly a consolation prize.

 

Regarding Greenway, the fact that he was on IR due to a freak injury during the preseason doesn't automatically make Whitner a better pick. He was one of the top linebacking prospects coming into the draft and with his speed, would have fit the Cover 2 defense pefectly.

 

Bobby Carpenter didn't start right away because (a) the Cowboys were deep at LB and (b) Parcells favors veterans players. Did you watch their games the second half of the season? He came on strong when given a chance, culminated by a stellar performance as a starter in their playoff loss to the Seahawks. With Wade coaching them now, watch out for him this year.

 

And as I said, Tamba Hali and Joseph were decent options as well... of course this is all assuming IF Whitner was off the board at that point.

 

Dawgg, I get the feeling that you think the Bills somehow were bozos for taking Whitner at #8...that they didn't squeeze the nickel hard enough. They had strong question marks at that position and took a player that evidently a number of other clubs had their eye on.

 

What's wrong with that? We all know that drafting will never approach anything like an exact science. Several decades ago, a moribund franchise named the Steelers had two years of drafts that turned out stellar beyond all expectations. Their history before that wasn't very good. Lucky them.

 

Some big shot football folks, well-regarded for their acumen, have picked Class A duds. And it will happen again.

 

I certainly understand the value of DL pressure. I'm a big fan of getting top OLs and a strong LB corps. But the rule changes through the past few years favor the pass game, and whether one likes it or not, it's pretty tough for a GM to turn his back on good DB talent when it presents itself.

[BillsVet]

Dawgg, I get the feeling that you think the Bills somehow were bozos for taking Whitner at #8...that they didn't squeeze the nickel hard enough. They has strong question marks at that position and took a player that evidently a number of other clubs had their eye on.

 

What's wrong with that? We all know that drafting will never approach anything like an exact science. Several decades ago, a moribund franchise named the Steelers had two years of drafts that turned out stellar beyond all expectations. Their history before that wasn't very good. Lucky them.

 

Some big shot football folks, well-regarded for their acumen, have picked Class A duds. And it will happen again.

 

I certainly understand the value of DL pressure. I'm a big fan of getting top OLs and a strong LB corps. But the rule changes through the past few years favor the pass game, and whether one likes it or not, it's pretty tough for a GM to turn his back on good DB talent when it presents itself.

 

 

Are you trying to compare the Bills draft to the Steelers draft from 1969 and 70? I mean, Pittsburgh ended up with Joe Green, LC Greenwood, Bradshaw, and Blount those two drafts. Four HOF's in 2 years! And then in 74 they picked up Ham, Lambert, Webster, Stallworth, and Swann! I really can't believe you're comparing the Bills circa 2006 with the Steelers in the 1970s. That was a completely different era. No salary cap, teams didn't scout as hard or scrutinize players and less teams in the league to draft.

 

Like it or not, safeties aren't playing a position that can dominate a game. DE's, OT's, and QB's can.

 

Just because Marv and his entourage made this pick doesn't make it right. They should be open to criticism. It sounds like some fans aren't thinking and just believing what they're told or bristling when the mainstream "experts" say something was wrong. We're reacting emotionally because Whitner was "our" pick and not looking at this without seeing the whole playing field. We spent a #8 on a safety, failed to trade down, then used a 2nd and 3rd for a broken DT. Well, at least only 2 of the last three seasons he's played. That's not strategically using our limited resources to address all the holes we had.

 

You've got to employ the right amount of resources to your team, and Buffalo chose a safety as their top pick. They needed help at DT, OL, and WR. Yet we chose the back of our defense to fortify. How many times has it been said on this board that winning football games begins at the LOS. We chose a player who played 15-20 yards from it. You can stop the pass by getting a pass rush that puts the QB under pressure and/or on his back before he makes the throw.

[stuckincincy]

Are you trying to compare the Bills draft to the Steelers draft from 1969 and 70? I mean, Pittsburgh ended up with Joe Green, LC Greenwood, Bradshaw, and Blount those two drafts. Four HOF's in 2 years! And then in 74 they picked up Ham, Lambert, Webster, Stallworth, and Swann! I really can't believe you're comparing the Bills circa 2006 with the Steelers in the 1970s. That was a completely different era. No salary cap, teams didn't scout as hard or scrutinize players and less teams in the league to draft.

 

Like it or not, safeties aren't playing a position that can dominate a game. DE's, OT's, and QB's can.

 

Just because Marv and his entourage made this pick doesn't make it right. They should be open to criticism. It sounds like some fans aren't thinking and just believing what they're told or bristling when the mainstream "experts" say something was wrong. We're reacting emotionally because Whitner was "our" pick and not looking at this without seeing the whole playing field. We spent a #8 on a safety, failed to trade down, then used a 2nd and 3rd for a broken DT. Well, at least only 2 of the last three seasons he's played. That's not strategically using our limited resources to address all the holes we had.

 

You've got to employ the right amount of resources to your team, and Buffalo chose a safety as their top pick. They needed help at DT, OL, and WR. Yet we chose the back of our defense to fortify. How many times has it been said on this board that winning football games begins at the LOS. We chose a player who played 15-20 yards from it. You can stop the pass by getting a pass rush that puts the QB under pressure and/or on his back before he makes the throw.

No, I'm not comparing 1969 and 1970 to today. Merely referring, I guess, to the old adage that even a blind chicken gets a kernel of corn now and then.

 

Reed, Polamalu, that 'Skins safety, have had some effect.

 

If you can offer an alternative explanation why - these days - decent DBs command such a high price - do so.

[Ramius]

Like it or not, safeties aren't playing a position that can dominate a game. DE's, OT's, and QB's can.

 

Of course not. Troy Polamalu and Bob Sanders did minimal in the past 2 seasons playoffs.

[stuckincincy]

Of course not. Troy Polamalu and Bob Sanders did minimal in the past 2 seasons playoffs.

It's always those pesky details, Ramius.

[BillsVet]

Of course not. Troy Polamalu and Bob Sanders did minimal in the past 2 seasons playoffs.

 

So we forget Sean Taylor when he's not able to fit into our argument? Because I know he made the difference for the Skins in 06. And how did Polamalu do in 06? Pittsburgh didn't make the postseason. All I'm doing with this comparison is illustrating the absurdity of your argument with your subjective rationale. It's a non-sequitur.

 

There's no doubt safeties are valuable, but just not as much as you might think, and certainly are not typically top-10 selections. You can find excellent safeties if you do your homework. After all, we got Ko Simpson in the fourth.

 

Tell me, what would you rather have: a pass rush or a pass defense? There's a significant difference. The former makes the latter look better while the a pass defense cannot survive without a pass rush.

 

We didn't get picked on through the air last season, ergo Whitner and Simpson weren't challenged as much. The highest pass yards allowed happened when Favre managed to throw for 287, albeit with a couple of picks. I personally believe the safeties both looked better in 06 because the gameplan necessitated they play so far off the LOS as a risk management function.

[stuckincincy]

We didn't get picked on through the air last season, ergo Whitner and Simpson weren't challenged as much. The highest pass yards allowed happened when Favre managed to throw for 287, albeit with a couple of picks. I personally believe the safeties both looked better in 06 because the gameplan necessitated they play so far off the LOS as a risk management function.

 

 

Possibly because the opposition chose the low risk - and clock-consuming option - of rather successfully running the ball down the team's throat?

[Bill from NYC]

Where is the proof that Whitner would be available few picks later?

 

The problem with this question is that it implies that the world would have stopped spinning if the Bills didn't draft Whitner. He looks like he will be a good player, but I would rather have Mangold on the Bills than Whitner. How about you?

The Bills could have taken Mangold, Joseph, or Ngata AND picked up more than an extra 2nd. Marv said that he was offered more than a 2nd for swapping 1st round picks. I heard him say this on Sirius.

 

Instead, we entered day 1 with 4 selections, and left with a DT with a history of injuries, and 2 defensive backs. Of course, we followed this up with a 4th round safety. You or others might think this is good which is of course fine. I do not.

To make things worse, we stand a solid chance of drafting yet another corner this year at #12, let alone another 1st day safety.

 

I like what Marv did with the late round picks, but his priorities were screwy, and Whitner, while seemingly good, was anything but a "must have" at #8.

[BillsVet]

Possibly because the opposition chose the low risk - and clock-consuming option - of rather successfully running the ball down the team's throat?

 

I suppose that's why Whitner had as many down the field tackles...we were deep off the LOS working so hard to prevent the pass and not getting a push with the DL. I realize the Cover-2, by its nature will yield rushing yards. But it's a bend, don't break defense against the run. You're hoping to force the team to throw into that zone. We simply didn't have the horses up front to clog the running lanes. I'm concerned that this season we'll be weak with both the run and pass defense. Whitner isn't going to make as big an impact on run defense, something I'm sure the front office knew before next season.

 

Admit that Buffalo minimized their risk with the Whitner selection because they flinched at the far-flung notion he'd be selected before they could swing a deal. Face it, the front office was out-done. They fell for the ploy. But they didn't make things better by panicking again when word spread that NYG was looking at McCargo.

[Dawgg]

This is precisely the point I am trying to make.

 

Mr. (or Miss) Huang keeps asking for proof that Whitner would have been available in the teens. OF COURSE YOU CAN'T PROVE THAT! To be perfectly honest, it doesn't F*****ING matter! Let's say the odds were 50-50 of Whitner being available after trading down. You still make that deal and net the extra picks!!! If Whitner is there, great take him. If he's not, we have a choice of solid prospects in Mangold, Joseph, Greenway, Hali, and Carpenter -- ALL areas of need.

 

Couple that with the fact that a contract at #15 offers SIGNIFICANT savings over what we had to pay Whitner.

 

Whitner got $13M guaranteed.

Tye Hill, the #15 overall pick got $6M guaranteed.

 

So by trading down, you not only net additional first-day picks, you save $7M in guaranteed money!!!! And if what you say is true in that Marv was offered more than a 2nd to move down, that seals the deal right there... Marv showed he was a rookie GM in last year's draft.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The problem with this question is that it implies that the world would have stopped spinning if the Bills didn't draft Whitner. He looks like he will be a good player, but I would rather have Mangold on the Bills than Whitner. How about you?

The Bills could have taken Mangold, Joseph, or Ngata AND picked up more than an extra 2nd. Marv said that he was offered more than a 2nd for swapping 1st round picks. I heard him say this on Sirius.

[Dawgg]

Probably the most accurate statement in this thread.

 

While Buffalo minimized their risk to get "their guy," they managed to dole out $13M in guarantees to their rookie safety... I wouldn't exactly call that a low-risk strategy.

 

 

Admit that Buffalo minimized their risk with the Whitner selection because they flinched at the far-flung notion he'd be selected before they could swing a deal. Face it, the front office was out-done. They fell for the ploy. But they didn't make things better by panicking again when word spread that NYG was looking at McCargo.

[keepthefaith]

This is precisely the point I am trying to make.

 

Mr. (or Miss) Huang keeps asking for proof that Whitner would have been available in the teens. OF COURSE YOU CAN'T PROVE THAT! To be perfectly honest, it doesn't F*****ING matter! Let's say the odds were 50-50 of Whitner being available after trading down. You still make that deal and net the extra picks!!! If Whitner is there, great take him. If he's not, we have a choice of solid prospects in Mangold, Joseph, Greenway, Hali, and Carpenter -- ALL areas of need.

 

And if what you say is true in that Marv was offered more than a 2nd to move down, that seals the deal right there... Marv showed he was a rookie GM in last year's draft.

 

I get the feeling from reading your posts that you think Whitner was not worthy of the 8th pick. Did you miss the part above where Whitner said that both Detroit and AZ who picked after the Bills showed strong interest? Do you think that just maybe Marv and co. knew which teams might pick him if they didn't and concluded that if there was a deal to trade down (and I stress if) that maybe he would have been gone? Maybe Whitner is really the guy they wanted more than the alternatives? Maybe those that get paid to do this for a living had more information than you and I at the time. Just maybe they know better than we do.

[Fingon]

Am i missing something? We run a cover two... its best to have a top safety with the cover 2.

[syhuang]

OF COURSE YOU CAN'T PROVE THAT!

Thank you for admitting that your statement regarding to "Whitner was picked too early" was based on nothing and was merely your own opinion.

 

Thanks for playing

[syhuang]

There are many scenarios Bills could have done in last year's draft. Some people may prefer one case, others may prefer another. Most important, no matter what Marv did, he wouldn't be able to satisfy everyone.

 

However, when Dawgg claimed that the statement of "Whitner was picked too early" was right, I was so curious to see what he based on. This is not about whether Bills should have trade down from #8 spot, this is about what makes Dawgg so sure that Whitner was picked too early when it's impossible to prove it. Please don't confuse "Whitner was picked too early" to "Bills could have traded down", they are different.

 

Since Dawgg admitted he based on nothing to make the statement, I got what I wanted to know. BTW, I also criticize some of Marv's moves, but I always try to avoid making statements based on nothing. (cough....Dawgg....cough....)

 

Now, please go back to argue which scenario you like most.

 

 

The problem with this question is that it implies that the world would have stopped spinning if the Bills didn't draft Whitner. He looks like he will be a good player, but I would rather have Mangold on the Bills than Whitner. How about you?

The Bills could have taken Mangold, Joseph, or Ngata AND picked up more than an extra 2nd. Marv said that he was offered more than a 2nd for swapping 1st round picks. I heard him say this on Sirius.

 

Instead, we entered day 1 with 4 selections, and left with a DT with a history of injuries, and 2 defensive backs. Of course, we followed this up with a 4th round safety. You or others might think this is good which is fof course fine. I do not.

To make things worse, we stand a solid chance of drafting yet another corner this year at #12, let alone another 1st day safety.

 

I like what Marv did with the late round picks, but his priorities were screwy, and Whitner, while seemingly good, was anything but a "must have" at #8.