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We are now at, where we feared we would be


daquix

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I do agree that the season will be the barometer of how successful/unsuccessful we truly are. The truth be told, it's probably somewheres in between. I'm just thinking, and once again hoping, that we enjoy some success and post season play this year. Is that being unrealistic? If so, I wouldn't think by much. If we can accomplish that and have built a solid foundation for 2008 and beyond, then I believe that Marv & Co. have been highly successful.

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Um, no. Raiders fans are idiots. And the Raiders had the worst offense of all time, led by 2 coaches who hadn't coached in over 5 years. Believe it or not, but schemes count for something.

 

Hasty Generalization at its finest.

 

 

What are you suggesting, that we write off the season? This is a Bills' message board. There's a good chance that you are going to find Bills' fans on it. It's understandable that most folks here are going to be optimistic about their favorite team in the off season, as they should be.

 

This is not the beginning of the season. If it was then the negative outlook would be more valid. Marv has done nothing but improve this team since he's been here. It's not where it needs to be but it's getting there. There is definitely areas of concern and need, no arguement there, but to sling mud at this staff is unjust. They are moving in the right direction, all the while keeping the team somewhat competitive and exciting. They have definitely improved the current roster and preparing it for even better success in the future.

 

So, what's the beef? We don't have enough qualified players this year? Can we at least have a draft and see what happens after June 1st before we conclude what will happen for us this season and what kind of bum our GM is? Thanks.

 

I'm not sure if this was directed to me or not, but I will answer as if it were (directed to me). No, I'm not saying to write off the season. I hope the Bills go 16-0 and win the Super Bowl, next season. I truly do! But what I want to know is where this huge sense of hope is coming from(?) Let me please review:

 

We have lost: Takeo Spikes (assuming), London Fletcher, Nate Clements, and Willis McGahee. We have no one to replace Willis McGahee. Haha {insert} funny joke about how horrible we all perceive Willis McGahee to be {here}. We are simply hoping that the draft will answer the need for a RB. We have no one proven to replace Fletcher or Spikes. We have Ellison - a real nice kid who shows signs of good play, but I also remember a fair bit of criticism from others, although I cant remember the exact comments. So we are depending on Crowell, Ellison, and the draft to make up for our LB needs. We have Youboty to replace Nate Clements. Do I really need to say anything else about that? Probably not, but I will. Youboty is about as unproven as an NFL player could be. We have seen little to nothing of him since the Bills have drafted him. To compliment him (or vice versa) we have McGee (or toast mcgee as some people like to call him).

 

From what I have gathered from the other side of the viewing gallery, we have this: The Bills are re-building and Marv has given us no reason to doubt him as of yet, and we will fulfill our needs in the draft. {insert another joke about how we can easily find another running back like Willis McGahee}. The season, or training camp for that matter, has not yet begun and thus we can not think about criticizing anything until its week 6 and we are doing poorly.

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Nooo, your criticism would carry much more weight AFTER the draft and any other avenues that are available to us to improve the roster. While you got your crystal ball out, how will that 30 yr. old LB who came off a very serious injury and who has a big price tag going to do this year? Are you saying that we should count on him completely? I'm still pissed that we didn't empty the bank on Clements, that San Fran stole him! McGahee, hmph, don't get me started. I don't give a sh-- if he was the second coming of Jim Brown, I'm sooo glad that he's gone. Let's establish the benchmarks. At the end of the season, what will you consider it to be a successful one and what would you consider it to be an unsuccessful one?

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I spoke about this multiple times throughout the year in many different threads concerning Nate Clements and his possible departure. Now looking back, this off season (to me anyhow) has become worse then I could ever had imagined a few months ago. Yes, good teams are built through the draft. I understand that. But while they make themselves a good team through the draft, these teams are mostly willing to keep good veterans on the roster to groom the draftees and make them better. We have now let Nate Clements, London Fletcher, Willis McGahee, and Takeo Spikes (assuming) all go. This is concerning basically due to the fact that we do not already have good draftees waiting in the wings to take over these positions. We have no premier RB on the staff. Furthermore we do not even have a RB that has the possibility of a becoming a premier RB.

 

We, as Bills nation, are relying on the fact that we can "trust in Marv" and that the draft is not yet here. I hope some of you come to realize that for us to even match the record/possibility of the team we had last year, we must draft a RB who is as good immediately as Willis McGahee. Two linebackers, who are as good as Takeo Spikes and London Fletcher, immediately, and a CB who is as good as Nate Clements is, immediately (Good luck). Yes, maybe we will have a draft that will produce good players in the future (2-3 years), but I doubt any of our draftees will be as good as the players we let go, in their rookie season. Therefore, please understand that we will probably, undoubtedly, take a step back this season.

 

And all the optimists say (all together now) "trust in marv" :D

 

Many good points Daq in your posts in this thread, the one point in particular concerning retaining veterans for their leadership and subsequent training of younger players is one that always sticks out to me. Players need to relate to and learn from other players, not just coaches. The Bills want a young team, that's fine with me but the philsophy as of late is to cut everyone who is over or near 30 years old and either draft their replacement or sign a 2nd or 3rd tier free agent.

 

If a system could be devised that offers a point value for talent it would appear that the Bills have taken a huge step backwards since January. Gaining Dockery might be a 5 point increase for the team overall but losing Fletcher, Spikes and Clements takes away at least 15. Losing Scumbag is like a 1 point loss I guess. Either way, mix the losses with the young faces and inexperience and it could potentially be a horrible season. I said it a few posts ago, this team is primed for seasonal records ranging from 6-10 to 9-7 with it's philsophy, I see '07 as a 6-10 season.

 

The TSW members who think that the Bills did well in free agency are kidding themselves, Dockery is a consistent player and will hopefully be a good pickup, I have my very serious doubts about Langston Walker and his $25 million contract and as for Jason Whittle, he's simply a spot sub, nothing more.

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With all due respect daquix, I do think you have valid points but you also painted the darkest sceanario at the same time. When you talked about keeping veterans for their leadership you included McGahee, I know that had to be a typo.

 

daquix, you started this post but let's give everyone the chance to be the GM, including yourself, and state what you would have done differently than what's happening now. We'll keep the salary cap out of it to a reasonable degree because none of us know what the hell we're talking about anyways.

 

Me, I don't have a problem so far with what's been happening as far as the personnel changes. I'll state that I'm in agreement so far but from this point on I would try to upgrade all my draft picks except our 1st rder.

 

 

* I'm expecting Spikes to be traded and I'm in agreement with that move also. Guessing at the compensation for him, hmm, I'd say a 5th rder, no lower than an early 6th.

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So, by your reasoning Clements is an "above average" player while K. Thomas is a "good" CB and A. Thomas is a "good" RB. I suppose if that's how I assessed these players abilities I might be pleased with the offseason as well... :D
How would you rate Clements? Is he the best CB in the NFL deserving of an $80 mil contract? If you think so I am glad you are not our GM. If you don't think so, Marv did the right thing to let him go. How would you rate K Thomas, & A Thomas, are both or either terrible signings in your opinion?
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Many good points Daq in your posts in this thread, the one point in particular concerning retaining veterans for their leadership and subsequent training of younger players is one that always sticks out to me. Players need to relate to and learn from other players, not just coaches. The Bills want a young team, that's fine with me but the philsophy as of late is to cut everyone who is over or near 30 years old and either draft their replacement or sign a 2nd or 3rd tier free agent.

 

If a system could be devised that offers a point value for talent it would appear that the Bills have taken a huge step backwards since January. Gaining Dockery might be a 5 point increase for the team overall but losing Fletcher, Spikes and Clements takes away at least 15. Losing Scumbag is like a 1 point loss I guess. Either way, mix the losses with the young faces and inexperience and it could potentially be a horrible season. I said it a few posts ago, this team is primed for seasonal records ranging from 6-10 to 9-7 with it's philsophy, I see '07 as a 6-10 season.

 

The TSW members who think that the Bills did well in free agency are kidding themselves, Dockery is a consistent player and will hopefully be a good pickup, I have my very serious doubts about Langston Walker and his $25 million contract and as for Jason Whittle, he's simply a spot sub, nothing more.

 

Good post. Especially the bolded part.

 

With all due respect daquix, I do think you have valid points but you also painted the darkest sceanario at the same time. When you talked about keeping veterans for their leadership you included McGahee, I know that had to be a typo.

 

daquix, you started this post but let's give everyone the chance to be the GM, including yourself, and state what you would have done differently than what's happening now. We'll keep the salary cap out of it to a reasonable degree because none of us know what the hell we're talking about anyways.

 

Me, I don't have a problem so far with what's been happening as far as the personnel changes. I'll state that I'm in agreement so far but from this point on I would try to upgrade all my draft picks except our 1st rder.

* I'm expecting Spikes to be traded and I'm in agreement with that move also. Guessing at the compensation for him, hmm, I'd say a 5th rder, no lower than an early 6th.

 

I bolded part of your quote. That was hilarious. :D

 

McGahee needed to go. No doubt about it.

 

I would have resigned Clements. I would have backloaded his contract and released him in three or so years when he is 31+, and has been in the league nearly 10 years. We may take a minor cap hit, but who cares? Its a minor cap hit for one season, and we dont have to pay him the rest ... OR, we could trade him after three or so years. Take your pick.

 

I would have told Takeo Spikes that if he wants to remain the starter on this team, he must re-structure his contract. Im not talking about veteran minimum here, but something lower than he has now with incentives to get up to where he was if he makes the pro bowl.

 

I would have done everything in the Bills capacity to sign Adalius Thomas.

 

I would have signed Dockery as Marv did, and went after Steinbach also. Why in the world we signed Walker and Whittle is beyond me. If we didnt sign Walker and Whittle we would have 26 million more to pay other players. Not to mention that Walkers contract is nearly all guaranteed money. We are giving Langston Walker more guaranteed money than we are giving Derrick Dockery!!! (edit - this is incorrect. Faulty website) How does this not concern some of you?

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Good post. Especially the bolded part.

I bolded part of your quote. That was hilarious. :D

 

McGahee needed to go. No doubt about it.

 

I would have resigned Clements. I would have backloaded his contract and released him in three or so years when he is 31+, and has been in the league nearly 10 years. We may take a minor cap hit, but who cares? Its a minor cap hit for one season, and we dont have to pay him the rest ... OR, we could trade him after three or so years. Take your pick.

 

I would have told Takeo Spikes that if he wants to remain the starter on this team, he must re-structure his contract. Im not talking about veteran minimum here, but something lower than he has now with incentives to get up to where he was if he makes the pro bowl.

 

I would have done everything in the Bills capacity to sign Adalius Thomas.

 

I would have signed Dockery as Marv did, and went after Steinbach also. Why in the world we signed Walker and Whittle is beyond me. If we didnt sign Walker and Whittle we would have 26 million more to pay other players. Not to mention that Walkers contract is nearly all guaranteed money. We are giving Langston Walker more guaranteed money than we are giving Derrick Dockery!!! How does this not concern some of you?

The problem here is you're assuming the players or their agents have no say so in any of these moves.

 

Do you really think Clements would have accepted a backloaded contract and passed on SF guaranteed money? He seemed determined to hit the market and go to the highest bidder. Nothing against him at all, but that's what it came down to. So, no way we get him unless we match the SF offer, or better it.

 

Why would TKO take a pay cut?

 

They may have tried to sign Adalius - we don't really know. But, I do agree with you here. We need a LB and he seemed like a good one. But, again, we don't really know what happened behind the scenes. Maybe Marv called him and he hung up?

 

Steinbach seemed to have his mind made up on where he was going. I'm not sure we could have gotten him for the same salary he got; so do you give gim another $10mill to lure him in? I wouldn't.

 

I agree wwith the concerns about Walker. All I can suggest is that Marv and company obviously wanted this guy; they certainly didn't settle. They went out on day one and signed him to a great contract. They didn't hem and haw and wait till everyone was taken and then say what the heck, lets give this guy a 1 year deal and see if it works out (ala Reyes). So either they're right and see something in him or they're wrong and it'll be a huge mistake. Quite honestly I don't know which, but I'll be ready to call it either way by the end of next season.

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The problem here is you're assuming the players or their agents have no say so in any of these moves.

 

Do you really think Clements would have accepted a backloaded contract and passed on SF guaranteed money? He seemed determined to hit the market and go to the highest bidder. Nothing against him at all, but that's what it came down to. So, no way we get him unless we match the SF offer, or better it.

 

No, we would have still had to guarantee him some money. Clements contract with San Fransisco is going to be backloaded and he is only getting 22 million in guaranteed. If you didn't know, that is what we are paying Langston Walker (the Oakland reject) in guaranteed money. Also, San Fransisco's offer shocked most of the league including us, and probably Clements. If we offered Clements around 68-70 million before free agency hit, I believe there would be a good chance that he would have taken it.

 

So to recap: Walker - Clements ... Walker - Clements. Tough choice? Not for me.

 

Why would TKO take a pay cut?
Because he is *cough* dedicated to the Buffalo Bills and is coming off of two seasons of injury plagued play. If he refused to take a pay cut, then you put him 2nd on the depth chart, and he doesnt budge, then you trade him.

 

They may have tried to sign Adalius - we don't really know. But, I do agree with you here. We need a LB and he seemed like a good one. But, again, we don't really know what happened behind the scenes. Maybe Marv called him and he hung up?

 

KFFL, and other media sources seem to do a pretty good job of detailing which teams have spoken to and are interested in players. Does any remember Buffalo ever being on Adalius's contacts or radar? I dont.

 

Steinbach seemed to have his mind made up on where he was going. I'm not sure we could have gotten him for the same salary he got; so do you give gim another $10mill to lure him in? I wouldn't.

 

If it cost 10 million more? Absolutely not. If it cost $2-3 million more in possible incentives if he plays well/makes pro-bowl, then yes.

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No, we would have still had to guarantee him some money. Clements contract with San Fransisco is going to be backloaded and he is only getting 22 million in guaranteed. If you didn't know, that is what we are paying Langston Walker (the Oakland reject) in guaranteed money. Also, San Fransisco's offer shocked most of the league including us, and probably Clements. If we offered Clements around 68-70 million before free agency hit, I believe there would be a good chance that he would have taken it.

 

So to recap: Walker - Clements ... Walker - Clements. Tough choice? Not for me.

 

Because he is *cough* dedicated to the Buffalo Bills and is coming off of two seasons of injury plagued play. If he refused to take a pay cut, then you put him 2nd on the depth chart, and he doesnt budge, then you trade him.

KFFL, and other media sources seem to do a pretty good job of detailing which teams have spoken to and are interested in players. Does any remember Buffalo ever being on Adalius's contacts or radar? I dont.

If it cost 10 million more? Absolutely not. If it cost $2-3 million more in possible incentives if he plays well/makes pro-bowl, then yes.

I thought Walker signed a 5yr/25mill deal? How's he getting a guaranteed $22mill? That seems odd to me. And I still say Nate seemed determined to test the open market. There's absolutely no reason to think he would have accepted any offer from the Bills. Its possible, sure, but unlikely. If the cheap old Bills are offering $70mill, what will the Redskins offer would probably be his mindset. Not to mention, his agent probably had a pretty good idea of what he would be offered.

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I thought Walker signed a 5yr/25mill deal? How's he getting a guaranteed $22mill? That seems odd to me. And I still say Nate seemed determined to test the open market. There's absolutely no reason to think he would have accepted any offer from the Bills. Its possible, sure, but unlikely. If the cheap old Bills are offering $70mill, what will the Redskins offer would probably be his mindset. Not to mention, his agent probably had a pretty good idea of what he would be offered.

 

Possibly, but I would say it is fair to say that the 80 million that the Redskins offered rocked Rosenhaus's world. I don't think he saw that coming. I bet he was thinking mid 60's. Maybe not though.

 

Yeah the website I got the $22 million guaranteed from was wrong. It is actually $10 million guaranteed.

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Hasty Generalization at its finest.

I'm not sure if this was directed to me or not, but I will answer as if it were (directed to me). No, I'm not saying to write off the season. I hope the Bills go 16-0 and win the Super Bowl, next season. I truly do! But what I want to know is where this huge sense of hope is coming from(?) Let me please review:

 

We have lost: Takeo Spikes (assuming), London Fletcher, Nate Clements, and Willis McGahee. We have no one to replace Willis McGahee. Haha {insert} funny joke about how horrible we all perceive Willis McGahee to be {here}. We are simply hoping that the draft will answer the need for a RB. We have no one proven to replace Fletcher or Spikes. We have Ellison - a real nice kid who shows signs of good play, but I also remember a fair bit of criticism from others, although I cant remember the exact comments. So we are depending on Crowell, Ellison, and the draft to make up for our LB needs. We have Youboty to replace Nate Clements. Do I really need to say anything else about that? Probably not, but I will. Youboty is about as unproven as an NFL player could be. We have seen little to nothing of him since the Bills have drafted him. To compliment him (or vice versa) we have McGee (or toast mcgee as some people like to call him).

 

From what I have gathered from the other side of the viewing gallery, we have this: The Bills are re-building and Marv has given us no reason to doubt him as of yet, and we will fulfill our needs in the draft. {insert another joke about how we can easily find another running back like Willis McGahee}. The season, or training camp for that matter, has not yet begun and thus we can not think about criticizing anything until its week 6 and we are doing poorly.

 

 

Why are you so concerned about the guys we have lost or our about to lose? We have won nothing with Clements, Spikes, Willis and London. Everyone gets so caught up in these so called "name players". We have not gone to one playoff game with any of them. One of the big problems with this team over the past few years is that our supposed best players were not that good. Willis has done nothing since 2004, ditto for Spikes, Nate was inconsistent at best, and London has consistently gotten run over for years. The guys we are getting rid of have no upside, still want big contracts, and and are not positive influences on the team. Why do I want to keep them? Marv and Dick know that.

 

The guys we are keeping (Kelsay, A-Train, K-Thomas, Lindell) and signing (Dockery, Walker) the Bills feel still have a lot of upside potential as well as are good team players and locker room guys. What a lot of you are forgetting is that team chemistry is very important. I think we have upgraded that quality considerably. The upgrades on the O-line, continued improvement of JP, a second year under the new regime, add in some quality players in the draft, and I think we are moving in the right direction. The guys we let go of were not leading us to the playoffs. Management knew this. To be down at this point in the offseason is shortsighted and depressing.

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I spoke about this multiple times throughout the year in many different threads concerning Nate Clements and his possible departure. Now looking back, this off season (to me anyhow) has become worse then I could ever had imagined a few months ago. Yes, good teams are built through the draft. I understand that. But while they make themselves a good team through the draft, these teams are mostly willing to keep good veterans on the roster to groom the draftees and make them better. We have now let Nate Clements, London Fletcher, Willis McGahee, and Takeo Spikes (assuming) all go. This is concerning basically due to the fact that we do not already have good draftees waiting in the wings to take over these positions. We have no premier RB on the staff. Furthermore we do not even have a RB that has the possibility of a becoming a premier RB.

 

We, as Bills nation, are relying on the fact that we can "trust in Marv" and that the draft is not yet here. I hope some of you come to realize that for us to even match the record/possibility of the team we had last year, we must draft a RB who is as good immediately as Willis McGahee. Two linebackers, who are as good as Takeo Spikes and London Fletcher, immediately, and a CB who is as good as Nate Clements is, immediately (Good luck). Yes, maybe we will have a draft that will produce good players in the future (2-3 years), but I doubt any of our draftees will be as good as the players we let go, in their rookie season. Therefore, please understand that we will probably, undoubtedly, take a step back this season.

 

And all the optimists say (all together now) "trust in marv" :D

 

 

I forgot how many playoff games Clements, Fletcher, Spikes & Willis won in a bills uni.

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Why are you so concerned about the guys we have lost or our about to lose? We have won nothing with Clements, Spikes, Willis and London.

 

I am concerned because London and Clements were playmakers. I don't know how easy it will be to replace London with a rookie. Willis should be easier to replace imo.

Losing Clements, however painful, probably made sense in terms of giving 80 million to a corner. The bad news is that we are probably looking at yet another first round defensive back, who will almost certainly not be as good as Nate.

 

I am very happy with the signing of Dockery, and Walker should be a step up from Pennington, who I don't think that the coaches were overly impressed by. That said, we need a right guard, and lots of help at LB and DT.

 

If Levy can get some good players at these positions, the future looks pretty good. If he continues to load up on first day defensive backs, the team will not be strong enough and will continue to be a secondary farm system for the rest of the league.

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I think that shipping out Willis was a good move and one that could not have come soon enough. In terms of replacing him, its much easier than people seem to think. According to DJ the Bills want to be a two back system, meaning A. Thomas and another back (C. Brown, or Draft one...I like Hunt from PSU). If we can have two guys run for 1200-1500 yds then losing Willis is a wash. Plus, the guy hated Buffalo it wasnt his style and thats fine move on. Losing Fletcher hurts because of the Leadership, not the stats. I know he tackled everything but it was usually after a gain of 3,4, or 5 yds. NC, in my opinion is way overrated. He is certainly not a top 3 corner in this league. I will conceede that he is a top 10 but not $80 mil thats just way too much. Replacing London in terms of tackles will not be hard...anyone who plays an agressive attacking MLB will be an upgrade on the field, the Leadership now falls to Crowell and Schobel who I hope will thrive. Replacing NC in the Cover 2 isnt that bad either. We have some stud safties to help out McGee, Ki. Thomas, Greer and Youboty plus whoever we take in probably the third round of the draft. The signing of Dockery, Walker, and Whittle is a huge upgrade. The RT spot since Peters went over to the left side was a problem and Walker will help that. I know they called him a Turnstyle in OAK but what did OAK do right as a team last year? They only scored like 6 offensive TDs...it was more than just this guy. I think that if DJ and ML went out and signed him first day to the 5/25mil he must at least have ton of potential and McNally can work some wonders (Peters). I think that at this point right now this has been an above average offseason for the Bills in comparison to years past. We landed some top name FA on day one, we resigned the vital role players and we released some aging vets along with some disgruntled names. We ceratinly are not the biggest loser (see Cincinnati) or the biggest winner (see probably NE as much as it pains me to say that). Above average in my opinion. For the record I am hoping for a trade down to the early 20's drafting either Willis or Pusluzny and then Hunt, Walker or Irons in the second round and a CB in the 3rd. GO BILLS

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Why are you so concerned about the guys we have lost or our about to lose? We have won nothing with Clements, Spikes, Willis and London. Everyone gets so caught up in these so called "name players".

 

 

If Levy can get some good players at these positions, the future looks pretty good. If he continues to load up on first day defensive backs, the team will not be strong enough and will continue to be a secondary farm system for the rest of the league.

 

Adequate players will be found to fill out the side... it's tough to be either optimistic or pessimistic about the team in the near term. They will be well coached and scrappy enough to fight to the middle and keep us interested but that draft had better supply playmakers and pro bowlers (at any position) if there is going to be any kind of future. Filling holes for the sake of filling holes is a dead end timing-wise.

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I spoke about this multiple times throughout the year in many different threads concerning Nate Clements and his possible departure. Now looking back, this off season (to me anyhow) has become worse then I could ever had imagined a few months ago. Yes, good teams are built through the draft. I understand that. But while they make themselves a good team through the draft, these teams are mostly willing to keep good veterans on the roster to groom the draftees and make them better. We have now let Nate Clements, London Fletcher, Willis McGahee, and Takeo Spikes (assuming) all go. This is concerning basically due to the fact that we do not already have good draftees waiting in the wings to take over these positions. We have no premier RB on the staff. Furthermore we do not even have a RB that has the possibility of a becoming a premier RB.

 

We, as Bills nation, are relying on the fact that we can "trust in Marv" and that the draft is not yet here. I hope some of you come to realize that for us to even match the record/possibility of the team we had last year, we must draft a RB who is as good immediately as Willis McGahee. Two linebackers, who are as good as Takeo Spikes and London Fletcher, immediately, and a CB who is as good as Nate Clements is, immediately (Good luck). Yes, maybe we will have a draft that will produce good players in the future (2-3 years), but I doubt any of our draftees will be as good as the players we let go, in their rookie season. Therefore, please understand that we will probably, undoubtedly, take a step back this season.

 

And all the optimists say (all together now) "trust in marv" :D

 

Hmmm.... where's my cart? Dammit, it's around here somewhere....hmmm..... oh.... there it is, it's right before the horse! Silly me!

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