JDG Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Remember this day in history, the day the Bills-Dolphins game was blacked out for the first time since 1987, because 10 years from now we may look back on it as the day that Buffalo lost the Bills. We all know the story - the Bills are a small market, with one of the cheapest tickets in the League, and among the fewest and cheapest luxury boxes in the League. By having a larger-than-average stadium the Bills are able to close some of the revenue gap with the big-market teams, but as teams like Washington and Dallas start to really dig into their respective markets that gap is looming larger and larger. It doesn't help the Bills that the entire Western New York area remains geared in full reverse. According to the US Census, the Buffalo-Niagara Falls area lost 1.6% of its population from 1990 to 2000, even as the United States as a whole was growing by more than 13%. We're small, and getting smaller. Meanwhile, the big are getting even bigger - at rapidly accelerating rates to boot. I can't prove it, but I suspect that we've drawn more than our fair share of December home dates with Miami over the last several years in large part because December home games tend to be a tough sell in Buffalo, and because Miami has always been a guaranteed sell-out. The NFL certainly does have some inclination to want a historic franchise like the Bills to succeed in Buffalo, and again, I can't prove it, but I suspect that they give us this small accomodation to perhaps help us out. Yet this year, the Bills have a decent team, the Bills and Fish have identical records and are not yet completely out of the playoffs, and the weather is expected to be fairly mild. And yet, the game was not sold out, even after an extension. That would mark the third blackout in a row for the Bills, and so far as I know, these would mark the *only* three blackouts in the NFL this year. That will surely be noticed. And while we may complain that we have a larger stadium than many NFL markets, we also have cheaper tickets than almost every NFL market - which means less revenue. I don't blame the good people of Western New York for this. Its been clear for years that Buffalo is a marginal NFL market, and is trying to support two major league sports teams. Moreover, as time goes by, Buffalo is getting objectively smaller by some measures - and comparatively smaller to the rest of the country by any measure. The region as a whole is slowly losing its competitiveness as a sizeable market for major professional sports. This is a classic frog-in-boiling-water problem.... there's been no single moment or political decision that has caused the precipitous decline of our beloved city. Indeed, that's partly why I'm citing as the signature event of this decline a TV blackout of a foorball game - an otherwise innocuous event. Nevertheless, over the past 50 years, enough mistakes and errors have accumulated to leave things in their present sorry state. The talk this week surrounding Dallas' new $1 billion multiplex, has generated speculation that the Bills might need a new stadium. Even if the stadium were built on the Rochester-side of the city, where would the people come from to fill the seats? And where would the corporations to fund the luxury boxes come from? More to the point, if $500-$900 million is going to be invested in a new stadium, what sensible reason is there for not investing that money in the enormous Toronto market? If the Bills were moved from the slowly withering environment of Buffalo just across Lake Ontario to the dynamic international financial center of Toronto the public outcry (outside of Upstate New York) would probably be muted, and in the long run, the franchise could probably expert to earn far more money - there simply would be many times more people available to fill the seats of a new stadium, and far more corporations to invest in those revenue-enhancing luxury boxes. Forget Los Angeles... someday the Raiders or the Jaguars or maybe even the Chargers will move into that market per the NFL's wishes.... and perhaps someday we'll all be able to go to "Buffalo Day" at the Toronto Bills' new stadium. JDG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Friday, December 1, 2006 It's official: no sellout for the Oakland Raiders, which means no luck for fans who want to watch from their favorite couch. Sunday's game against the Houston Texans will be blacked out on local television after the Raiders failed to sell out for the first time this season. Team officials did not say how many tickets remain unsold for the 62,132-seat Coliseum, but called it "significant" Wednesday. The Raiders, who took over ticket operations from the Oakland Football Marketing Association in January, sold out their first five games of the season -- a team-record since returning to Oakland from Los Angeles in 1995. The Raiders had 58 of 88 home games blacked out until this season. This week's game is also blacked out, and tickets still remain for next week's rivalry game with the Chiefs. Then again, *I* wouldn't pay to watch the Raiders, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 ... there's been no single moment or political decision that has caused the precipitous decline of our beloved city. 868736[/snapback] The opening of the St. Lawrence Seaway in 1959 heavily damaged the regions' importance as a grain milling and steel processing giant, and as a major rail center. The long-standing political machine of the area did little to react to the inevitable changes in the local economy, choosing to maintain their power with unions and ethnic majorities with patronage and the like. As Bethlehem, Republic, Mobil, Pillsbury, Western Electric, Bell, etc. left town, the political response was increased taxation and public sector hiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDG Posted December 17, 2006 Author Share Posted December 17, 2006 This week's game is also blacked out, and tickets still remain for next week's rivalry game with the Chiefs. Then again, *I* wouldn't pay to watch the Raiders, either. 868778[/snapback] Yeah, there is that. To me, if I'm the NFL League Office, I want the Raiders to end up in Los Angeles within 10 years, and I want the Bills in a larger market with much stronger growth potential - to me, Toronto is the most likely of those markets, especially since it has the potential to mute the national outrage over the Bills leaving Buffalo... JDG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Tax Rates in Ontario, Canada A 5mill a year player would earn $312,500k US for a single game - which as of today is $361,687 Can. Taxes on the first $188,285 would be $25,388 Taxes on the balance: $243,402 would be at 29% or $70,586 Ontario taxes would be: 6.05% on the first $34,758 of taxable income = $2,102 + 9.15% on the next $34,759 = $3,180 + 11.16% on the amount over $69,517 ($292,170) = $32,606 Total taxes: Can- $95,974 Ont - $37,888 TOTAL + $133,862 Net Canadian: $227,825 Net for Baby Mommas and 40/40 for the Possee: $196,840 US - which is about 62¢ on the dollah. As bad as that seems perhaps to some - baby mommas and possees included, the US tax rates are worse. Once the players find out about this, they'll petition their boss to call Mayflower. Hell, let's all move to Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offside Number 76 Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Remember this day in history, the day the Bills-Dolphins game was blacked out for the first time since 1987, because 10 years from now we may look back on it as the day that Buffalo lost the Bills. 868736[/snapback] But the Bills were still here in 1988, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ (not THAT RJ) Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Tax Rates in Ontario, Canada A 5mill a year player would earn $312,500k US for a single game - which as of today is $361,687 Can. Taxes on the first $188,285 would be $25,388 Taxes on the balance: $243,402 would be at 29% or $70,586 Ontario taxes would be: 6.05% on the first $34,758 of taxable income = $2,102 + 9.15% on the next $34,759 = $3,180 + 11.16% on the amount over $69,517 ($292,170) = $32,606 Total taxes: Can- $95,974 Ont - $37,888 TOTAL + $133,862 Net Canadian: $227,825 Net for Baby Mommas and 40/40 for the Possee: $196,840 US - which is about 62¢ on the dollah. As bad as that seems perhaps to some - baby mommas and possees included, the US tax rates are worse. Once the players find out about this, they'll petition their boss to call Mayflower. Hell, let's all move to Canada. 868831[/snapback] Tax Rates in the US are worse than Canada? Where is the evidence of that? The NBA and MLB (leaving aside the NHL for its historic reasons) have had many problems with players and teams in Canada dealing with demands to be paid in US dollars, as well as issues with fan support. This discussion is so 1997 it is frightening, and the answer now is very likely the same as then. The NFL is not moving to Toronto. Whether that means the Bills are staying in Buffalo is another matter entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Tax Rates in the US are worse than Canada? Where is the evidence of that? The NBA and MLB (leaving aside the NHL for its historic reasons) have had many problems with players and teams in Canada dealing with demands to be paid in US dollars, as well as issues with fan support. This discussion is so 1997 it is frightening, and the answer now is very likely the same as then. The NFL is not moving to Toronto. Whether that means the Bills are staying in Buffalo is another matter entirely. 868865[/snapback] I'm glad you asked. Here is the information that you seek. It surprised me too. 35% top rate vs. 29% in the Great White North. If taxable income is over---- But not over-- The tax is: $0 $7,550 10% of the amount over $0 $7,550 to $30,650 : $755 plus 15% of the amount over 7,550 $30,650 to $74,200 : $4,220.00 plus 25% of the amount over 30,650 $74,200 to $154,800 : $15,107.50 plus 28% of the amount over 74,200 $154,800 to $336,550 : $37,675.50 plus 33% of the amount over 154,800 $336,550 to no limit : $97,653.00 plus 35% of the amount over 336,550 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ (not THAT RJ) Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Fascinating. Thanks for the quick response! I do wonder how Canadian Social Security (or whatever they call it) and national health insurance charges compare to the US counterparts, but that is another subject. That being said, evidence up to now still suggests extremely limited NFL interest in moving to Toronto. I wonder if the TBD archives have the zillion threads on this from 1997-98? Anybody out there remember Canucklehead, who claimed in summer 1998 to have conclusive proof that the Bills were about to move? Ah, memories.... I'm glad you asked. Here is the information that you seek. It surprised me too. 35% top rate vs. 29% in the Great White North. If taxable income is over---- But not over-- The tax is: $0 $7,550 10% of the amount over $0 $7,550 to $30,650 : $755 plus 15% of the amount over 7,550 $30,650 to $74,200 : $4,220.00 plus 25% of the amount over 30,650 $74,200 to $154,800 : $15,107.50 plus 28% of the amount over 74,200 $154,800 to $336,550 : $37,675.50 plus 33% of the amount over 154,800 $336,550 to no limit : $97,653.00 plus 35% of the amount over 336,550 868876[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Remember this day in history, the day the Bills-Dolphins game was blacked out for the first time since 1987, because 10 years from now we may look back on it as the day that Buffalo lost the Bills. 868736[/snapback] You gotta be joking??? Ya... Right... Whatever... 10 years ago, 1996 season, the 10-6 Buffalo Bills play the young Jacksonville Jaguars IN THE PLAYOFFS IN BUFFALO (and lose)... The game DOESN'T sellout in time and is subject to the league's "blackout rule." Fast forward to 2006, the Bills are STILL IN BFLO... My question... The Bills v. Fish series must be better than the playoffs?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Remember this day in history, the day the Bills-Dolphins game was blacked out for the first time since 1987, because 10 years from now we may look back on it as the day that Buffalo lost the Bills. 868736[/snapback] It probably doesnt help either that the Bills are pinning their hopes on "arguably the worst QB in the history of the NFL" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 It probably doesnt help either that the Bills are pinning their hopes on "arguably the worst QB in the history of the NFL" 869788[/snapback] Very true. But they can't keep Holcomb on the bench forever. And don't forget Nall. He's got great potential too! I'll bet Jauron uses Holcomb next week. Exactly where, I don't know. But he'll use him someplace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Very true. But they can't keep Holcomb on the bench forever. And don't forget Nall. He's got great potential too! I'll bet Jauron uses Holcomb next week. Exactly where, I don't know. But he'll use him someplace. 869797[/snapback] Holcomb's ability to hold a clipboard is second to none...except maybe shane matthews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Holcomb's ability to hold a clipboard is second to none...except maybe shane matthews. 869809[/snapback] Splendid! I'll email Coach Jauron's Blackberry right now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Splendid! I'll email Coach Jauron's Blackberry right now! 869811[/snapback] Just as Wade refused to wear headphones... You sure Dickie "Blackberry's"? The Bills in BFLO are doomed I tell you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDG Posted December 19, 2006 Author Share Posted December 19, 2006 You gotta be joking??? Ya... Right... Whatever... 10 years ago, 1996 season, the 10-6 Buffalo Bills play the young Jacksonville Jaguars IN THE PLAYOFFS IN BUFFALO (and lose)... The game DOESN'T sellout in time and is subject to the league's "blackout rule." Fast forward to 2006, the Bills are STILL IN BFLO... My question... The Bills v. Fish series must be better than the playoffs?... 869784[/snapback] The playoffs have a shorter time to sell out..... whereas many teams sell out the regular season before the first game is even played.... JDG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDG Posted December 19, 2006 Author Share Posted December 19, 2006 Tax Rates in the US are worse than Canada? Where is the evidence of that? The NBA and MLB (leaving aside the NHL for its historic reasons) have had many problems with players and teams in Canada dealing with demands to be paid in US dollars, as well as issues with fan support. This discussion is so 1997 it is frightening, and the answer now is very likely the same as then. The NFL is not moving to Toronto. Whether that means the Bills are staying in Buffalo is another matter entirely. 868865[/snapback] The Blue Jays aren't exactly a financial basketcase.... More importantly, once you add together all the people in Buffalo, Niagara Falls, and Rochester - and heck even after you toss in Syracuse and Binghamton ---- the Greater Toronto Area still has on the order of TWICE as many people. Additionally, Toronto is an international financial center - compared to Buffalo, which doesn't even have a single Fortune 500 company. More importantly, Toronto is growing and Buffalo is going backwards. Plain and simple, when the time comes for a new stadium, there's very little argument to be made for building that stadium in the Buffalo area. More importantly, the NFL Front Office has clearly recognize that Toronto is a huge market, a growing market, and relatively prosperous and wealthy market. The NFL is going to want to be in that market at some point. From, there you just have to put two and two together. JDG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ (not THAT RJ) Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 The NFL has repeatedly said it is not interested in Toronto, but if it makes you feel better to indulge in this masochistic fantasy, don't let me stop you. The Blue Jays aren't exactly a financial basketcase.... More importantly, once you add together all the people in Buffalo, Niagara Falls, and Rochester - and heck even after you toss in Syracuse and Binghamton ---- the Greater Toronto Area still has on the order of TWICE as many people. Additionally, Toronto is an international financial center - compared to Buffalo, which doesn't even have a single Fortune 500 company. More importantly, Toronto is growing and Buffalo is going backwards. Plain and simple, when the time comes for a new stadium, there's very little argument to be made for building that stadium in the Buffalo area. More importantly, the NFL Front Office has clearly recognize that Toronto is a huge market, a growing market, and relatively prosperous and wealthy market. The NFL is going to want to be in that market at some point. From, there you just have to put two and two together. JDG 871417[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDG Posted December 19, 2006 Author Share Posted December 19, 2006 The NFL has repeatedly said it is not interested in Toronto, but if it makes you feel better to indulge in this masochistic fantasy, don't let me stop you. 871452[/snapback] http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto.../TPStory/Sports JDG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 The NFL has repeatedly said it is not interested in Toronto, but if it makes you feel better to indulge in this masochistic fantasy, don't let me stop you. 871452[/snapback] Well, the reason they would say they're not interested in Toronto is because that would cut into the Bills' fan base. The NFL is obviously not interested in putting a new team in Toronto with a team currently in Buffalo. They're also not interested in publicly lobbying for a current team to move to another city. That being said, I seriously doubt that if the Ralph wanted to move the Bills to Toronto the NFL would do much to dissuade him and most of the owners would probably be happy that the pain in their neck was now in a good sized market. These non-sell outs wouldn't concern me so much in terms of the Bills leaving Buffalo. The thing that would concern me in the revenue sharing that Wilson is lobbying for. If the NFL doesn't figure out a real way of sharing revenue with the small market teams the Bills won't be able to survive and a move (perhaps to Toronto) wouldn't be that far-fetched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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