Losman Under the Gun

[UConn James]

I am still wondering what happened to all these runs to the outside and passes to the TEs that we were supposed to see.

808779[/snapback]

 

Each coach comes in here saying they're going to do things differently, use different schemes, return to conventional ball-control football.... whatever the least tired buzzword is in an effort to CHANGE.

 

And they all wind up doing the same $%^&ing things and making the same %^&^ing mistakes. Over and over and over.

[Cripes]

[New York: After getting onside kick, can’t even adequately throw a screen pass to McGahee and the drive dies quickly without even sniffing a chance at the end zone.

 

Were you at that game?  When they recovered the onside kick, the skies literally opened up and the winds were blowing twice as hard as they were earlier in the game.  He couldn't throw an adequate screen pass because the wind was blowing so damn hard.  They probably should have burned a timeout and hoped that it passed over. (I think the hard rain stopped about 5 minutes later so it wouldn't have mattered anyway.)

 

I think the Detroit game was his best chance to lead the Bills back but with the Defense playing the way they did, they should have gone for it on 4th and 9 instead of punting.

808763[/snapback]

 

 

Three questions:

 

If JP can't play in bad weather, what's he doing in Western New York?

 

What's the excuse for how Losman nearly got Willis crippled last week with another awful screen pass in the Detroit dome? Somebody turn on a fan?

 

And if you were at the Jets game, did you run off to take a leak after that three-yard loss screen play? You may have missed how JP had no problem completing the 10-yard pass to Parrish to set up 4th and 3. (Apparently, the bad weather kicked in again to muff up his short-armed, two-yard carpet-burner on the final play).

[bschmoove]

This weekend.

 

Home game against a good opponent. Feeling the heat after two very different road losses.

Seeing Leinart and Young join the Grossman, Rothlisbrg, Rivers hot young quarterback club. He is a bright kid.

 

I judge him this week.

 

.

808071[/snapback]

 

Right on. He needs to show the poise of the others. This week could be an indicator of what his future looks like in Buffalo.

[Dan]

This is absurd. Leinart, Young ?! Rivers, Grossman hot QBS with poise? How many playoff games have these guys won? How great did Grossman look this week? There are so many problems with this line of thinking, it befuddles my brain to think about.

 

Most of these types of posts boil down to one thing... a complete lack of knowledge.

 

JP,I agree, is winning all these games and he's not looking like the second coming of John Elway - engineering comeback drives in what 50% or so of his few starts. But, what you're missing is his clear and mostly steady progress. The big knock on JP was he was raw coming out of college. Raw, almost by definition, implies that it'll take him longer to develop. That's exactly what we're seeing - a good young QB with lots of talent, but in dire need of polishing. He's getting the playing time and he's getting better.

 

People can scream for Leinart, Quinn, or any other guy they THINK will immediately win us a superbowl all they want. I'll cheer for the guy that's done everything on AND off the field to demonstrate his dedication to Buffalo and to becoming a winner.

 

 

PS. If we cut every player that wasn't playing great, we'd have about 3 guys on this team after the last 2 weeks.

[JDG]

Anything that happend last year is a WASH....when you are young QB and getting yanked in and out of the lineup I cant blame him for any of it....

 

Lets judge him on how he does this year.....

808012[/snapback]

 

So, you would have left JP in the lineup after the first four games?

[JDG]

...and Holcombs Arm...

...and Ray Finkle....

...and Scott Law...

...and Jay From DC...

...and Morris Titanic...

...and newly inducted member into the "JP Sucks Crusaders" tron35

 

It's their board now.  We are here only for their amusement...

807816[/snapback]

 

I was pretty lonely when I first started pointed out that Losman was playing terrible - even for a QB in his first starts - but more and more people are coming around. Maybe you should try taking the arguments seriously, instead of just of just attacking the messengers. If Losman isn't playing terrible, then perhaps you can back it up?

 

JDG

[JDG]

Nothing?  Don't you think that's a bit strong?

 

I mean, he had a pretty mediocre game, but as usual with JP this year IMO, he showed some flashes.  How about the drive to bring the Bills back within 3?  I thought that was pretty good.

808035[/snapback]

 

Losman was unbelievably bad for 2+ quarters against Detroit - with only what one TBD poster once called "the broken play offense" going for him during that time.

 

Granted he finally did put together one decent drive to make the game look close.

 

As Kelly the Fair and Balanced Dog might say, "Hence, the tease...."

 

JDG

[Dan]

So, you would have left JP in the lineup after the first four games?

808964[/snapback]

 

In a word... Absolutely yes, I would have. In a season where we weren't going anywhere anyway, why not let your young QB gain experiences? The problem was apparently you and too many others actually bought into the hype and thought we were actual playoff contenders last year. We now see how terribly wrong that line of thinking was.

[Bill from NYC]

I was pretty lonely when I first started pointed out that Losman was playing terrible - even for a QB in his first starts - but more and more people are coming around.  Maybe you should try taking the arguments seriously, instead of just of just attacking the messengers.  If Losman isn't playing terrible, then perhaps you can back it up?

 

JDG

808967[/snapback]

 

John, I have been reading and enjoying your posts for many years, and I think that you know this.

 

What I am missing from all of your JP posts is what exactly you expect from him? He has one good running back and one good receiver. His OL sucks and they need the TE to stay in and block, no matter how many defenders are rushing.

 

Look, I didn't like the trade that brought him to town. The thing is, he IS here, and he looks better than last year. If he keeps improving, we won't have to continue to chase QBs (what Marv WILL chase is another issue).

 

Again, what DO you expect from the kid?

[Ramius]

I was pretty lonely when I first started pointed out that Losman was playing terrible - even for a QB in his first starts - but more and more people are coming around.  Maybe you should try taking the arguments seriously, instead of just of just attacking the messengers.  If Losman isn't playing terrible, then perhaps you can back it up?

 

JDG

808967[/snapback]

 

I wouldnt consider being in that company a good thing. Now that i think about it, given who your little anti-losman circle jerk buddies are, perhaps HA's plan isnt a bad thing. Unfortunately, HA would be one of the first victims of his own system.

[SilverNRed]

If JP can't play in bad weather, what's he doing in Western New York?

808853[/snapback]

Bad weather is going to hurt ANY QB trying to run a two minute offense at the end of a game. Bad weather affects EVERY QB's ability to throw.

 

Also, Losman didn't choose to play in WNY. The Bills drafted him. If every NFL player could choose where they wanted to play, the Bills would have a three man roster.

 

What's the excuse for how Losman nearly got Willis crippled last week with another awful screen pass in the Detroit dome?  Somebody turn on a fan?

808853[/snapback]

"Somebody turn on a fan?" Please tell me you aren't trying to imply that Losman has a weak arm....

 

Losman is an OK quarterback right now. He does things to help the team win and he does things that don't work out. Quarterbacks tend to get better with age, however, so I'm willing to stick with him to see how he develops.

[BEAST MODE BABY!]

Most of you guys are a bunch of whining Sallys. If you didn't realize this was going to be an up and down year, you're dumb. A like what I see out of Losman. The team seems to be in better shape than last year. We have 2 rookie safeties. Give me a break. Calm down and understand things take time. Geez. It's just football.

[2003Contenders]

I think most on here feel the way that I do -- that is, the kid has done some good things and plenty of bad things as well. He's a work in progress -- and we really do not know yet -- and probably won't for awhile anyway -- whether he really is the long term solution or not.

 

I find this JP debate on the board to be kinda funny. There are some folks on here that "picked a side" long ago, and allow all sense of reasoning to blind them to their view-point, which was not arrived at rationally in the first place. That is to say that for whatever reason some of the folks on here made a bold and foundless assessment that "JP sucks" before having ever seen him play a down. Now, regardless of what he does, your single-minded determination to be "right" at all costs leads you to either root against him -- or assign credit elsewhere when he plays well. Of course, there are plenty on the flip-side who apparantly want to defend every mistake he makes.

 

The bottom line is that we as Bills fans should all hope and pray that he does come around and continue to progress. Why would we want to have to invest another high draft pick or scarce free agent dollars on another QB, when we so badly need to improve the OL and DL? I've seen enough to tell me that the kid has the talent to succeed. (How many QBs around the league could have made the play he did on the Parrish TD on Sunday?) But, I also know that he looked pretty bad for most of the game: partly because of poor protection, partly because his receivers weren't coming open -- and partly because he just flat out didn't help himself either.

 

What we need to see out of him is a defining moment. That would be a situation (like Kelly against Miami back in the late 80s or Flutie against the Jags in 98) where he puts the team on his shoulders and helps will them to an improbable victory.

 

Maybe this is the week that that happens...

[I 90]

In a word...  Absolutely yes, I would have.  In a season where we weren't going anywhere anyway, why not let your young QB gain experiences?  The problem was apparently you and too many others actually bought into the hype and thought we were actual playoff contenders last year.  We now see how terribly wrong that line of thinking was.

808973[/snapback]

 

Now there is a dangerous line of thinking.

 

Are we going anywhere this year ? How about next year ? I choose to believe that J.P. is going to show us something special this week. This year is important. I am not signing up for the Supreme Soviet five year plan that delivers the new 2008 coaching staff a quality quarterback. NHL thinking should be in the minority here.

[Ozymandius]

What I am missing from all of your JP posts is what exactly you expect from him?

808987[/snapback]

 

That's a good question. I checked nfl draft history (http://www.drafthistory.com/positions/qb.html ) to see how QBs that were taken bottom of the first round or second round turned out (presumably, those could be peers we can compare JP to). Here's a complete list of names going back 15 years (parentheses indicate in what round they were picked and what pick within the round)

 

Kellen Clemens (2,17)

Tarvaris Jackson (2,32)

Aaron Rodgers (1,24)

Jason Campbell (1,25)

JP Losman (1,22)

Kyle Boller (1,19)

Rex Grossman (1,22)

Patrick Ramsey (1,32)

Drew Brees (2,1)

Quincy Carter (2,22)

Marques Tuiasosopo (2,28)

Shaun King (2,19)

Charlie Batch (2,30)

Jim Druckenmiller (1,26)

Jake Plummer (2,12)

Tony Banks (2,12)

Todd Collins (2,13)

Kordell Stewart (2,28)

Tommy Maddox (1,25)

Dan McGwire (1,16)

Todd Marinovich (1,24)

Brett Favre (2,6)

Browning Nagle (2,7)

 

That's not a list that should bring great comfort. Overwhelmingly, with very few exceptions, if there were flaws or question marks in a QB's game that kept him from being a top half of the first round selection, those flaws or question marks will be his undoing in the pros. What makes JP's situation worse is that we drafted him before we had an o-line to block for him (we still don't have one) and before we had a veteran coaching staff in place who had been in their current jobs for awhile with a set system and roles. Because a swiss cheese line and constant change in management/teaching is no way to develop a QB.

 

My guess is JP will fail, either by his own inadequacies or by the Bills bungling his development. He's experienced a bad o-line and constant change around him but the one thing he hasn't yet faced is a football town turning against him. He will soon, and that's when the shoe will really drop. I mean, the majority of the fans support him now but it will be 50/50 by the end of the season with nobody fully trusting him. Next season, the Bills will hopefully have addressed the o-line, but it's going to take time for them to mesh (especially if they're draft picks) and so JP will likely struggle and make mistakes behind that line again. As Rivers/Eli/Ben continue to succeed, the fans will start to turn on JP, booing his every mistake. He'll start to try too hard and doubt himself and it will all end with a ticket out of town after 2007. I wouldn't expect ANY young QB to be able to survive a situation that includes bad o-line, constant change, and a fans turning against him, much less a QB that was taken bottom first or second round.

[Bill from NYC]

That's a good question.  I checked nfl draft history (http://www.drafthistory.com/positions/qb.html ) to see how QBs that were taken bottom of the first round or second round turned out (presumably, those could be peers we can compare JP to).  Here's a complete list of names going back 15 years (parentheses indicate in what round they were picked and what pick within the round)

 

Kellen Clemens (2,17)

Tarvaris Jackson (2,32)

Aaron Rodgers (1,24)

Jason Campbell (1,25)

JP Losman (1,22)

Kyle Boller (1,19)

Rex Grossman (1,22)

Patrick Ramsey (1,32)

Drew Brees (2,1)

Quincy Carter (2,22)

Marques Tuiasosopo (2,28)

Shaun King (2,19)

Charlie Batch (2,30)

Jim Druckenmiller (1,26)

Jake Plummer (2,12)

Tony Banks (2,12)

Todd Collins (2,13)

Kordell Stewart (2,28)

Tommy Maddox (1,25)

Dan McGwire (1,16)

Todd Marinovich (1,24)

Brett Favre (2,6)

Browning Nagle (2,7)

 

That's not a list that should bring great comfort.  Overwhelmingly, with very few exceptions, if there were flaws or question marks in a QB's game that kept him from being a top half of the first round selection, those flaws or question marks will be his undoing in the pros.  What makes JP's situation worse is that we drafted him before we had an o-line to block for him (we still don't have one) and before we had a veteran coaching staff in place who had been in their current jobs for awhile with a set system and roles.  Because a swiss cheese line and constant change in management/teaching is no way to develop a QB.

 

My guess is JP will fail, either by his own inadequacies or by the Bills bungling his development.  He's experienced a bad o-line and constant change around him but the one thing he hasn't yet faced is a football town turning against him.  He will soon, and that's when the shoe will really drop.  I mean, the majority of the fans support him now but it will be 50/50 by the end of the season with nobody fully trusting him.  Next season, the Bills will hopefully have addressed the o-line, but it's going to take time for them to mesh (especially if they're draft picks) and so JP will likely struggle and make mistakes behind that line again.  As Rivers/Eli/Ben continue to succeed, the fans will start to turn on JP, booing his every mistake.  He'll start to try too hard and doubt himself and it will all end with a ticket out of town after 2007.  I wouldn't expect ANY young QB to be able to survive a situation that includes bad o-line, constant change, and a fans turning against him, much less a QB that was taken bottom first or second round.

809332[/snapback]

 

That was great research, however depressing the results. I think another question (that you posed) is relevant.....whether or not teams already had their OL in place for the qbs that did succeed.

I am too tired to look this up tonight. Maybe tomorrow.

[UConn James]

What we need to see out of him is a defining moment. That would be a situation (like Kelly against Miami back in the late 80s or Flutie against the Jags in 98) where he puts the team on his shoulders and helps will them to an improbable victory.

 

Maybe this is the week that that happens...

809090[/snapback]

 

And I think that defining moment has to happen this season in order for him to transition comfortably into next season.

 

Can't have the same lingering fart waft of failure as coming into camp this season. He will lose most any chance of being the future QB if he doesn't show he can elevate his game. Fans won't stand for it for next year to be like this, and you have to think Marv will not risk the future for the kid w/o having a strong backup plan heading into next season. Ten games left. B/c if doubts creep in the offseason, mark my words, it's going to be like Tim Couch.

[BuffOrange]

I find this JP debate on the board to be kinda funny. There are some folks on here that "picked a side" long ago, and allow all sense of reasoning to blind them to their view-point, which was not arrived at rationally in the first place.

809090[/snapback]

 

Yep, I thought we rid of this after the RJ-DF fiasco, but apparantly there's no escaping it.

[JDG]

In a word...  Absolutely yes, I would have.  In a season where we weren't going anywhere anyway, why not let your young QB gain experiences?  The problem was apparently you and too many others actually bought into the hype and thought we were actual playoff contenders last year.  We now see how terribly wrong that line of thinking was.

808973[/snapback]

 

Well, this is the heart of the issue. I know John from Hemet hasn't had a chance to respond yet, but I'll jump in anyways.

 

Contrary to what some people around here believe, I don't hate JP Losman, andI don't root for JP Losman to fai. On the other hand, I do think that JP Losman is better this year than he was last year (admittedly I don't feel that is saying much), and I think that JP Losman should start against New England on Sunday, and the week after that, etc.

 

As near as I can tell, what has drawn the ire of so many people here is that last season, when many people were arguing that "JP Losman is performing about as well as I would expect for a QB of his experience", I had the temerity to point out that in fact JP Losman was actually performing substantially below what we should expect for a QB of hist experience.

 

You argue, "why not let your young QB gain experience?" The reason why not, is that JP Losman was performing at an extraordinarily abysmal level - a level that as near as I can tell was almost unparalleled for a QB who had been through two NFL training camps. Let's take a look at the statistical measures of JP Losman's performance at that time:

 

Game #2 @Tampa Bay - 11 of 28 (a mere 39.3%) for 113 yards (a measely 4.0 yards per attempt). O.k. this was one bad game, admittedly a tough road game against a solid defense.

 

Game #3 vs. Atlanta - 10 of 23 (a mere 43.5%) for only 75 yards (a dreadful 3.26 yards per attempt). Now, its time to be concerned - with two terrible games in a row, this one at home.

 

Game #4 vs. New Orlens @ San Antonio - 7 of 15 (a mere 46.7%) for a pathetic 75 yards for the second week in a row (5 YPA). What's more, this was the same New Orleans Saints defense that the Green Bay Packers had rung up 50+ points on.

 

For three games now, Losman was performing at a level that indicated that he belonged nowheres near an NFL playing field on Sunday. I don't see how you could continue to trot out Losman under center in those circumstances - and even if you did, how you could avoid losing the team. The other 52 players on the team know what an NFL QB looks like, even without the stats, they could just see that he was not playing at anything remotely approaching an NFL level. It would be hard to continue playing at a peak level when you knew in your heart that your QB was giving you absolutely no chance to win the game.

 

Mularkey was not a good coach, but he made the absolutely right decision in this case - even if for no othe reason than that it was very much a "no-brainer."

 

JDG

[JDG]

John, I have been reading and enjoying your posts for many years, and I think that you know this.

 

What I am missing from all of your JP posts is what exactly you expect from him? He has one good running back and one good receiver. His OL sucks and they need the TE to stay in and block, no matter how many defenders are rushing.

 

Look, I didn't like the trade that brought him to town. The thing is, he IS here, and he looks better than last year. If he keeps improving, we won't have to continue to chase QBs (what Marv WILL chase is another issue).

 

Again, what DO you expect from the kid?

808987[/snapback]

 

Isn't it obvious?

 

In his third NFL season, I want him to perform like a good NFL QB.

 

I want him to have an NFL-caliber ratio of good decisions to bad decisions. I want him to lead drives, score points, and win games. I want him to throw accurate deep balls, and short balls with good touch (and that rarely get the receiver hammered.) I want him to get the ball with us down by two with two minutes left and have me think "We have them right where we want them" rather than "I just don't see us winning this game."

 

JDG