Our "Franchise Cornerback"

[daquixers_is_back]

Solution: Start someone else.  Anyone else.  It can't get worse. 

 

Hell, change the scheme while you're at it.  Whatever they're doing, its not working.  We just made the Lions look like a playoff team.

805399[/snapback]

 

Clements only gave up 1 pass in the Lions game .... McGee was getting torched. Holy cow. Im done with this thread. My head is going to implode.

[Patience]

Mark it down. Freeney WILL be signed.

805401[/snapback]

 

They probably will, I just don't see how.

[Hazed and Amuzed]

Clements is a good corner but he is not worth the money we are paying to him. He should be doing a better job out there thats right I said BETTER. He makes tackles and thats fine but if I'm going ti pay a corner that much he better avg. more than 1 int per 11 games(which is what he's done the past two seasons). Who is he shutting down really that earns him 8 mil a year? We have given up quite a few passing yards this year if no ones noticed. While our offense hasn't scored 3 TD's in a game since the Miami debacle. I'd rather take my chance w/out Nate "The Playmaker" Clements and spend some money on improving our O-Line.

 

The only people on this team worth defending are Fletcher, Moorman and Evans everyone else is suspect. Don't get me wrong I'm a Jp supporter as well as a fan of Mcgahee but I would like to see someone step-up and EARN their pay because the last two games have been really bad. I LOVE my Bills and will live and die with this team no matter what but I'm starting to get weary of seeing other teams PLAYMAKERS and FRANCHISE PLAYERS step it up. When are our guys going to step it up? It's been 7 years. I hate reading negitave posts and I hate writing them even more but just because we "beat" Miami and Min. don't mean jack.

 

I guess I'm just tired of defending some of these player like Clements and I don't understand why some continue to pretend that we are "better then our stats" or "better then our record sugests". We're not!! and as soon as our powers that be relize this the better. Like I said before I will live and die with this team and I hope that we continue..Ahem START to improve.

[Dennis in NC]

They need to knock him off the line of scrimage -  like Greer didin the first quarter.

804676[/snapback]

Exactly! Did that play work only because Williams was running a diagonal route?

 

I was wondering why not chuck this guy every play?

[Wraith]

Exactly! Did that play work only because Williams was running a diagonal route?

 

I was wondering why not chuck this guy every play?

805463[/snapback]

 

It's not a part of the scheme.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Sadly, this post is not as facetious as I would like it)

[keepthefaith]

Certainly won't be better but I don't think it would make a huge difference. I'd like to take that money and get a real offensive or defensive tackle.

804696[/snapback]

 

How about one of each and a guard too.

[Dan]

Clements only gave up 1 pass in the Lions game .... McGee was getting torched. Holy cow. Im done with this thread. My head is going to implode.

805404[/snapback]

OK. just fast forwarded through the game. And giving up one pass is a bit of a stretch. I counted 2 tackles (one after the first down) and 2 passes defensed (however, technically, he didn't break either one up) and 3 passes against.

 

Certainly, McGee got worked over quite a bit more. But, for a playmaker, where's all of Clements great plays?

 

In general, the Lions just took it to our Defense. And, Clements did little to help. Add that to the poor run defense and continual burn of McGee and the Lions are headed to the playoffs.

 

1st Q:

1st series

2-7. Clements bites on pump fake. 20 yd completion to R. Williams.

 

2nd Q:

4th series

3-4 R. Williams run past Clements. Completion 18 yds.

1-10 R. Williams runs past him again. Dropped pass at 10yd line.

 

5th Series

1-10 R. Williams catch for 8 yds. Clements too far off in coverage.

 

3rd Q:

9th Series

1-10 Clements makes a tackle, coming off his guy.

 

4th Q:

9th Series

2-7 Clements makes tackle after first down.

 

10th Series

1-10 R. Williams catch for 18 yds in front of Clements.

1-10 Clements covering R. Williams. KO intercepts it at the 3.

[daquixers_is_back]

OK.  just fast forwarded through the game.  And giving up one pass is a bit of a stretch. I counted 2 tackles (one after the first down) and 2 passes defensed (however, technically, he didn't break either one up) and 3 passes against.

 

Certainly, McGee got worked over quite a bit more.  But, for a playmaker, where's all of Clements great plays?

 

In general, the Lions just took it to our Defense. And, Clements did little to help.  Add that to the poor run defense and continual burn of McGee and the Lions are headed to the playoffs.

 

1st Q:

1st series

2-7.  Clements bites on pump fake.  20 yd completion to R. Williams.

 

2nd Q:

4th series

3-4 R. Williams run past Clements.  Completion 18 yds.

1-10 R. Williams runs past him again.  Dropped pass at 10yd line.

 

5th Series

1-10 R. Williams catch for 8 yds.  Clements too far off in coverage.

 

3rd Q:

9th Series

1-10 Clements makes a tackle, coming off his guy.

 

4th Q:

9th Series

2-7  Clements makes tackle after first down.

 

10th Series

1-10 R. Williams catch for 18 yds in front of Clements.

1-10 Clements covering R. Williams.  KO intercepts it at the 3.

805528[/snapback]

 

The funny part is that you actually thought you would fool us. Thank-fully I have TIVO also ...

 

1st series: Clements stuck with him after the fake, but was pushed off before Williams made the catch. Many posters on this board wanted a penalty on Williams on that play.

 

2nd Q 4th and 5th series: THEY ARE PLAYING IN ZONE COVERAGE! This is also the drive close to where Furrey split the zone and caught a pass within 2 minutes left and then Williams split the zone and caught the TD pass.

 

Then Clements makes some tackles (as you showed) and covers his receiver allowing an underthrown pass to be INT'ed by KO ...

 

As I said .. he gave up maybe 2 passes. Solid game.

[Dan]

I posted what happened, not what I thought would fool, nor did I try to "interpret" what was happening. But, lets for a moment: On the first catch, yes, Williams pushed; but because Clements bit on the fake, he was out of position and therefore rather than a push all it really took was a slight nudge to "throw" him 10 yds off the play.

 

4th series

3-4 R. Williams run past Clements. Completion 18 yds.

Zone or not, Williams ran right past him, Clements turned to pursue and the catch was made with Clements the only Bill within the area of the pass. Call it what you want, but he gave up a pass there.

 

10th Series

1-10 R. Williams catch for 18 yds in front of Clements.

Williams runs and cuts in front of Clements - catches the ball. How is that not a catch against Clements?

 

Look, Clements clearly gave up more than 1 pass. He also, didn't single handedly give the game away either. All I'm saying is that this guy wants $7mil/yr and he's not palying like a shut down corner and getting interceptions. So, why pay him like he is? If he wants to stay for a reasonable salary, I'm all for it. But, why spend top money for an average CB when we need to spend it on the lines.

[Deep2Moulds46]

The only thing elite about Nate Clements is his rating in Madden. Other than that, he is just another guy playing a position the experts still dont know how to rate.

[daquixers_is_back]

I posted what happened, not what I thought would fool, nor did I try to "interpret" what was happening.  But, lets for a moment: On the first catch, yes, Williams pushed; but because Clements bit on the fake, he was out of position and therefore rather than a push all it really took was a slight nudge to "throw" him 10 yds off the play.

 

4th series

3-4 R. Williams run past Clements.  Completion 18 yds.

Zone or not, Williams ran right past him, Clements turned to pursue and the catch was made with Clements the only Bill within the area of the pass.  Call it what you want, but he gave up a pass there.

 

10th Series

1-10 R. Williams catch for 18 yds in front of Clements.

Williams runs and cuts in front of Clements - catches the ball.  How is that not a catch against Clements? 

 

Look, Clements clearly gave up more than 1 pass.  He also, didn't single handedly give the game away either.  All I'm saying is that this guy wants $7mil/yr and he's not palying like a shut down corner and getting interceptions.    So, why pay him like he is?  If he wants to stay for a reasonable salary, I'm all for it.  But, why spend top money for an average CB when we need to spend it on the lines.

805582[/snapback]

 

OK so he had 2 catches ... now see how many Bailey gives up tonight. I bet he gives up 2 or more.

[rolly]

OK, so when I made this thread, I was wondering why mcgee was covering roy willliams and not clements. The logical answer is that the coaches feel mcgee is better suited to cover him (which he sucked but who knows how clements would have done).

 

Bottom line, the guy is our highest paid player and has had something like 2 picks in 22 games. That is ridiculous. It's not enough for a "#1 corner" to just "cover guys" well. He needs to pick some balls or force some fumbles. I think we can all agree that turnovers are often what wins games, and our franchise cornerback contributes nothing to that.

[rolly]

OK so he had 2 catches ... now see how many Bailey gives up tonight. I bet he gives up 2 or more.

805613[/snapback]

 

 

Bailey also made a pick last week that arguably won denver the game. THAT is a #1 cornerback.

[Dan]

OK so he had 2 catches ... now see how many Bailey gives up tonight. I bet he gives up 2 or more.

805613[/snapback]

 

By my count, he was thrown to 5 times and gave up 3 passes (but, for the sake of arguement I'll say he gave up 2). So, that's 50%. Now why is he worth top 5 money? I've never said he wasn't an adequate corner, I'm just saying he's not the best in the league and therefore shouldn't be paid as such.

 

And I agree, Champ does give up a few passes, but he seems to atone with a key interception, as well. Where's Nate's interceptions?

[UConn James]

Where's Nate's interceptions?

805630[/snapback]

 

Where's a bawling Ray Lucas when Nate needs him?

 

Where's a limping Dante Culpepper when our Defense needs him?

 

Every team we play should be required to sign either of these guys the week before we play them. Roger Goodell, make it so!

[DCBongo]

Watch how our team is without him

804689[/snapback]

 

Oh lord, can it get worse? I mean the back to back 2-14 sucked - are we talking that flavor of bad?

[RunTheBall]

We should have kept Winfield. Many thought he was expendable because he wasn't making picks (Nate was at the time) but he's clearly a better corner than the "Playmaker". Every time I see nate wiff on a tackle I think of how we crapped the bed by not signing Antoine.

 

RTB

[daquixers_is_back]

By my count, he was thrown to 5 times and gave up 3 passes (but, for the sake of arguement I'll say he gave up 2).  So, that's 50%.  Now why is he worth top 5 money?  I've never said he wasn't an adequate corner, I'm just saying he's not the best in the league and therefore shouldn't be paid as such.

 

And I agree, Champ does give up a few passes, but he seems to atone with a key interception, as well.  Where's Nate's interceptions?

805630[/snapback]

 

Are you serious? Dude, the best CB's are the one's who arent thrown to more than 3-5 times a game. The reason they only threw 5 balls at him is probably because he was blanketing his receiver. I dont know because I wasnt at the game, but thats common sense.

[daquixers_is_back]

Bailey also made a pick last week that arguably won denver the game. THAT is a #1 cornerback.

805629[/snapback]

 

Because he made an interception? Give me a break. Nate has tipped the ball into the air before and our our DB's cant catch it.

[Dan]

Are you serious? Dude, the best CB's are the one's who arent thrown to more than 3-5 times a game. The reason they only threw 5 balls at him is probably because he was blanketing his receiver. I dont know because I wasnt at the game, but thats common sense.

805818[/snapback]

 

You're right. Nate is by far the best player on our team and easily the best cornerback in the league. The only question is will Marv be awake enough to pay him the $7-$8 mill/yr he wants for the priviledge of letting us see Nate school the league's best receivers.

 

I'm not sure how I could ever think Nate was average. He clearly is so good, opposing teams shudder in fear of even getting near his side of the field.

[Hazed and Amuzed]

Because he made an interception? Give me a break. Nate has tipped the ball into the air before and our our DB's cant catch it.

805819[/snapback]

 

 

Think about that last statment. Nate has tipped the ball in the air but the other DB's can't catch it? Why doesn't Nate stop "tipping" balls and start catching them himself. Maybe he should be playing vollyball.

[Dan]

Think about that last statment. Nate has tipped the ball in the air but the other DB's can't catch it?  Why doesn't Nate stop "tipping" balls and start catching them himself.  Maybe he should be playing vollyball.

805825[/snapback]

 

You obviously have never played the game or never seen one in person, because Nate tips the balls in purpose. He's so good, he figures he's tired of catching all the interceptions. So, he's tryin to help the other guys out. Its not his fault they're not as good as he is.

[BuffaloBilliever]

Get Youboty healthy...

[daquixers_is_back]

You're right.  Nate is by far the best player on our team and easily the best cornerback in the league.  The only question is will Marv be awake enough to pay him the $7-$8 mill/yr he wants for the priviledge of letting us see Nate school the league's best receivers. 

 

I'm not sure how I could ever think Nate was average.  He clearly is so good, opposing teams shudder in fear of even getting near his side of the field.

805824[/snapback]

 

 

Think about that last statment. Nate has tipped the ball in the air but the other DB's can't catch it?  Why doesn't Nate stop "tipping" balls and start catching them himself.  Maybe he should be playing vollyball.

805825[/snapback]

 

If you can only get one hand on the ball than thats better than nothing ... watch the Steelers play. They do it ALL THE TIME. One DB tips the ball and another catches it.

 

 

You obviously have never played the game or never seen one in person, because Nate tips the balls in purpose.  He's so good, he figures he's tired of catching all the interceptions.  So, he's tryin to help the other guys out.  Its not his fault they're not as good as he is.

805826[/snapback]

 

[Dan]

I know.... I'm being ridiculous. But, I've given up trying to argue what we obviously won't agree on.

[Hazed and Amuzed]

You obviously have never played the game or never seen one in person, because Nate tips the balls in purpose.  He's so good, he figures he's tired of catching all the interceptions.  So, he's tryin to help the other guys out.  Its not his fault they're not as good as he is.

805826[/snapback]

 

 

Your right actually every time he's in coverage it's the DLine's fault they don't get sacks, I mean he's doing his job why can't they do theirs? LOL. This thread is too much.

[Hazed and Amuzed]

If you can only get one hand on the ball than thats better than nothing ... watch the Steelers play. They do it ALL THE TIME. One DB tips the ball and another catches it.

805829[/snapback]

 

 

I know the Tip drill I've played ball. The point is that he could tip 10 balls a game but he is getting paid to do more. I want him to make PLAYS. Do something, ANYTHING to make this team win. When was the last time we won a game and after all anyone could talk about was Nate. I don't remember that ever happining.

[daquixers_is_back]

I know.... I'm being ridiculous.  But, I've given up trying to argue what we obviously won't agree on.

805832[/snapback]

 

Agreed.

 

I know the Tip drill I've played ball.  The point is that he could tip 10 balls a game but he is getting paid to do more. I want him to make PLAYS.  Do something, ANYTHING to make this team win. When was the last time we won a game and after all anyone could talk about was Nate. I don't remember that ever happining.

805843[/snapback]

 

I completely understand what your saying and in certain circumstances you would be right. Such as if this was a decent team. But were rebuilding, and when you rebuild you want some solid players to build around. So why let him go and get a couple "could be" good players when you can lock up a sure-fire solid player? Its all about the situation your in.

[rolly]

Because he made an interception? Give me a break. Nate has tipped the ball into the air before and our our DB's cant catch it.

805819[/snapback]

 

 

No offense man but for someone who continually calls out others for "stupidity" this is hypocrisy. One interception can change a game. As a top corner, you're expected to make turnovers- clements hasn't done this in a while. Tipping a ball and catching it are 2 very different things.

[Hazed and Amuzed]

I completely understand what your saying and in certain circumstances you would be right. Such as if this was a decent team. But were rebuilding, and when you rebuild you want some solid players to build around. So why let him go and get a couple "could be" good players when you can lock up a sure-fire solid player? Its all about the situation your in.

 

I see where your coming from and respect your view I just am tired of how crappy these lines are BOTH lines and am willing to sacrifices a "lesser" corner to improve one of our lines. Nate cant play "tight" because we can't get pressure. He would have nothing left by halftime if he didn't give a bit of a cush. the way this pass rush is. Alot of our sacks are coverage sacks and I give the credit to our secondary. I think people overlook that aspect. We will never be suceefull if we rely on nothing but coverage sacks. We need to get to the QB bottom line.

[daquixers_is_back]

I see where your coming from and respect your view I just am tired of how crappy these lines are BOTH lines and am willing to sacrifices a "lesser" corner to improve one of our lines. Nate cant play "tight" because we can't get pressure. He would have nothing left by halftime if he didn't give a bit of a cush. the way this pass rush is.  Alot of our sacks are coverage sacks and I give the credit to our secondary.  I think people overlook that aspect. We will never be suceefull if we rely on nothing but coverage sacks. We need to get to the QB bottom line.

805873[/snapback]

 

The problem is that everytime we give up someone good because of money to get 2 other "maybe" players were like a turnstile ... we just keep revolving year after year ... we need good players to build our team around.

[Hazed and Amuzed]

The problem is that everytime we give up someone good because of money to get 2 other "maybe" players were like a turnstile ... we just keep revolving year after year ... we need good players to build our team around.

805876[/snapback]

 

The problem with this is that Nate has become one of these "maybe" players. I would'nt be happy if we had a DE with 2 sacks in the last 2 seasons or a RB w/ 2 TD's in the last 22 games. 2 int in 22 DOES NOT cut it. Could you imagine if Schobel had 2 sacks in 22 games and was getting paid top dollar?

[daquixers_is_back]

The problem with this is that Nate has become one of these "maybe" players. I would'nt be happy if we had a DE with 2 sacks in the last 2 seasons or a RB w/ 2 TD's in the last 22 games. 2 int in 22 DOES NOT cut it.  Could you imagine if Schobel had 2 sacks in 22 games and was getting paid top dollar?

805886[/snapback]

 

If Schobel was stopping the run 97% of the time and missed a few tackles here and there then no i wouldnt mind it at all ... the fact is that (go watch a Bills game) Clements keeps his receiver in check most of the game. He may miss a tackle here or there or give up a catch here or there but he is mostly solid. He is not a maybe player. NFL teams dont pay top dollar for maybe players ... THINK ABOUT THIS --> OTHER TEAMS WANT CLEMENTS FOR A REASON!!!

[Hazed and Amuzed]

Who are these OTHER TEAMS?

[MartyBall4Buffalo]

If Schobel was stopping the run 97% of the time and missed a few tackles here and there then no i wouldnt mind it at all ... the fact is that (go watch a Bills game) Clements keeps his receiver in check most of the game. He may miss a tackle here or there or give up a catch here or there but he is mostly solid. He is not a maybe player. NFL teams dont pay top dollar for maybe players ... THINK ABOUT THIS --> OTHER TEAMS WANT CLEMENTS FOR A REASON!!!

805892[/snapback]

 

 

Man you're beating a dead horse around here. People won't realize how good nate was till he's gone. They'll simply reflect on the negative, and move on to a new whipping boy. They did it with Winfield, Ruben Brown, Pat Williams, Sam Adams, Moulds etc etc etc.

 

Nate's a very good corner and will get paid as such. Where as we'll wait for youboty to develop and repeat the process of drafting a corner only to see him leave via free agency, cause we don't, or won't pay him to stick around.

[daquixers_is_back]

Think about this though. A lot of these CB's INT's are coming off of easy tips that they catch. Their not all great INT's. Their just lucky.

 

Chris McAlister only has 3 INT's in his last 21 games.

 

Shawn Springs use to be considered one of the best CB's in the game and he has 1 INT in the past 15 games.

 

Patrick Surtain only has 1 INT in his last 49 games

 

Samari Rolle only has 3 INT in his last 32 games

 

Why didnt we make a play for Ty Law in the off-season? Heck why did the Jets let him go? He had 10 INT's last year and 2 INT's in 5 games this year ..

[daquixers_is_back]

Who are these OTHER TEAMS?

805899[/snapback]

 

To be honest im not sure ... they didnt evaluate ... it was on Fox's pregame. They said something like that Clements will be one of the best, if not the best, free agent out there.

[Swift Sylvan]

I think playing as a CB is probably the worst position in terms of publicity. Here are the reasons:

 

1. If you do a great job then no one will ever notice because the QB will never throw the ball in your direction

2. The only way for people to think you're really good is to get some INT's and unless you're doing zone the only way to get a chance is to have the QB think he can beat you.

3. Whenever your team loses it's generally everyone's fault, but chances are you will take a lot of the blame

 

I didn't watch the game, but if Clements hasn't been thrown on very much throughout the game.

 

http://nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20061015_BUF@DET

 

There's a link, Kitna probably threw 29 passes to non-RB/FB's, assuming he can hit a RB in the backfield consistantly, so if Clement's was only thrown on 5 times or less, he probably did a good job. I don't want to pay him 8 million dollars to do that, but frankly this is a team game, I can't see any reason why Crowell, Fletcher, and Spike should not have taken any blame for this, I think Clements came off as a jerk last year and as a result it's much easier to target him. Yeah Clements doesn't have an int, but niether does McGee our so called new playmaker. Marv is not an idiot and he wouldn't pay for Nate Clements to stay if he was incompetant, we all know that. If Nate is as sucky as you say he will be gone next year, but frankly I think there are a lot of people on this team who deserve just as much flack as him for this game, if not more.

[daquixers_is_back]

I think playing as a CB is probably the worst position in terms of publicity.  Here are the reasons:

 

1.  If you do a great job then no one will ever notice because the QB will never throw the ball in your direction

2.  The only way for people to think you're really good is to get some INT's and unless you're doing zone the only way to get a chance is to have the QB think he can beat you.

3.  Whenever your team loses it's generally everyone's fault, but chances are you will take a lot of the blame

 

I didn't watch the game, but if Clements hasn't been thrown on very much throughout the game.

 

http://nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20061015_BUF@DET

 

There's a link, Kitna probably threw 29 passes to non-RB/FB's, assuming he can hit a RB in the backfield consistantly, so if Clement's was only thrown on 5 times or less, he probably did a good job.  I don't want to pay him 8 million dollars to do that, but frankly this is a team game, I can't see any reason why Crowell, Fletcher, and Spike should not have taken any blame for this, I think Clements came off as a jerk last year and as a result it's much easier to target him.  Yeah Clements doesn't have an int, but niether does McGee our so called new playmaker.  Marv is not an idiot and he wouldn't pay for Nate Clements to stay if he was incompetant, we all know that.  If Nate is as sucky as you say he will be gone next year, but frankly I think there are a lot of people on this team who deserve just as much flack as him for this game, if not more.

805920[/snapback]

 

Good post.

[Hazed and Amuzed]

I think playing as a CB is probably the worst position in terms of publicity.  Here are the reasons:

 

1.  If you do a great job then no one will ever notice because the QB will never throw the ball in your direction

2.  The only way for people to think you're really good is to get some INT's and unless you're doing zone the only way to get a chance is to have the QB think he can beat you.

3.  Whenever your team loses it's generally everyone's fault, but chances are you will take a lot of the blame

 

I didn't watch the game, but if Clements hasn't been thrown on very much throughout the game.

 

http://nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20061015_BUF@DET

 

There's a link, Kitna probably threw 29 passes to non-RB/FB's, assuming he can hit a RB in the backfield consistantly, so if Clement's was only thrown on 5 times or less, he probably did a good job.  I don't want to pay him 8 million dollars to do that, but frankly this is a team game, I can't see any reason why Crowell, Fletcher, and Spike should not have taken any blame for this, I think Clements came off as a jerk last year and as a result it's much easier to target him.  Yeah Clements doesn't have an int, but niether does McGee our so called new playmaker.  Marv is not an idiot and he wouldn't pay for Nate Clements to stay if he was incompetant, we all know that.  If Nate is as sucky as you say he will be gone next year, but frankly I think there are a lot of people on this team who deserve just as much flack as him for this game, if not more.

805920[/snapback]

 

 

I don't blame this loss on Nate nor do I think he is "sucky" I'm simply stating he isn't winning any games for us so why should we pay him 8 mil. Thats alot of money for someone who is simply "not losing the game for us" Why don't we give Lindell 5 mil a year since he didn't lose the game for us either