Offensive Free Agents still available

[rogerkochman]

Melvin Fowler replaced the injured All-star center for the Vikings last year Matt Birk for nine games and was very effective, by all accounts. He wanted to start and would not with Birk returning, so this is not a case of him being rejected.

 

Tutan Reyes is a seven year starter. The Panthers have 3rd year guy that they want to plug in, cheaper of course. They had a good line with Reyes, they wanted to save money and use their draft pick. I don't see that as being a reject.

 

Only time will tell, but I think Marv has made good personnel decisions in the past and nothing he's done so far as GM has changed my mind about that.

[Pyrite Gal]

A couple of points:

 

1) You surprisingly left out salary cap issues. You frequently make references to the sport/business issue. If signing another ufa scrub in addition to the ones we have already signed will hurt our salary cap number down the road, why do it?

 

2) It NEVER pays to sign inadequate players. We should know. Takeo Spikes was a great signing. So was Chris Speilman. Kris Farris was a bad signing. So was Joe Panos.

 

If we are going to face facts, we must admit that Ralph wasn't going anywhere near a premier ufa such as Hutchinson, need notwithstanding. The best chance for the Bills to acquire good players was the draft, especially because we had early picks.

Levy chose to draft little secondary players, and give away a pick while doing so. Paint this any way you choose, but this is probably not good. You know why?

  Because we took a safety with the #8. This has happened only a few times in the history of NFL drafts. Insult to injury? He wasn't even the first safety selected. Levy followed this idiocy up with giving away a first day pick, and selecting 2 more secondary players with the next 3 picks.

  Nice.   

 

  You want to follow up this mess by signing additional second rate ufas that nobody else wanted (despite the huge increase in the cap)? 

 

  Whatever. Me, I would rather see if any of the young players we have are any good.

695907[/snapback]

 

Okay, I'll play.

 

Whwn does signing an inadequate player make sense?

 

It does when the player you currently have at the position on your roster is also inadequate and the player who is inadequate is better than your current inadequate player.

 

The other caveat to add to this is when there is no adsequate player or even a better inadequate plater available to you ub your budget under the salary cap.

 

I'd happily join you in railing against the Bills choices if they in fact did not sign an adequate player who is available, but in this particular case we are talking about signing a back-up OL player, and I think any player you get is likely to be inadequare as a potential starter because by definition we are talking about a back-up and as a practical matter the market has already given starter money to all the players who can adequately start.

 

From what I see the popularity of fantasy leagues and also the great marketing job ESPN has done on the NFL draft has infected many fans to believe that all judgments about players should be made on some absolute scale when back here in reality teams are limited by their budgets within the salary cap where in order to pay the big bucks stars command and really inadequate players (like Ryan Leaf) get slotted to make whether they deserve it or not (in addition some GMs like Butler panic in the search for the next Jim Kelly) and give megamillions to players like RJ who do not deserve it based on their play.

 

The bottom line here in reality is that the Bills have some weak players at back up OL positions. Do you have so much confidence in Matt Morgan that you think there are no better LTs available that we should not sign because they are inadequate players?

 

Our back-up C is on the deoth chart as Geisinger, I think Jeff Mitchell has seen his best days and is inadquate as a player and I think Cort Rayner was never an adequate C, but I am quite interested in signing them because I think Geisinger is oribabky worse.

 

I think Aaron Gibson was and likely still is a fat tub of goo, but I have so little confidence in Jerman that I think our OL is improved if this inadequate player works out for us and Jerman gets cut.

 

Do you advocate also signing these inadequate players or do you know of some other player who is adequate we can sign or are you a firm believer in Morgn, Geisinger and Jerman.

 

In adequate players? Just get her done and we will be a marginally better team.

[C.Biscuit97]

IMO, our offensive line woes also have a lot to do with no consistency. Sure it helps having all-pros like hutch, but consider the fact that seattles o-line has stayed the same for the past 3 seasons. We did acquire some solid o-linemen in fowler and reyes. and maybe if we let a line develop together for more than 4 games they can turn into something good.

 

One question tho, and i'm not accusing you in particular of this, just the board in general; Why are lineman additions such as fowler and reyes automatically dismissed as nothing, yet people think a 2nd or 3rd round draft pick is automatically a gold mine, sure-fire all pro?

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Dude, that's a great post. Offensive line depends on teamwork. You gotta trust the person next to you. The more guys play together, the better of a feel they get for each other. Staying together multiple seasons helps build strong lines, like the Chiefs line and the good Bills lines of the early 90s.

The Reyes and Fowler signings aren't flashy moves, but they're very smart ones. Why is it better to have a rookie than a couple of vets who have played and started for playoff type team? Reyes started for the Panthers, who made the NFC championship game. Fowler stepped in and became a big part of a Minnesota team that finished up as one of the hottest teams in the league and just missed the playoffs. They are both relatively young and a nucleus of Gandy-Reyes-Fowler-Fowler-Villy/ Preston- Peters could be a good unit especially if they play together for 3 or 4 years. Hopefully, McNally will get the best out of each of these guys.

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

It appears that neither Fowler or Reyes were wanted back by their previous teams, they were not pursued by anyone other than the Bills, they signed relatively cheap contracts (at least Reyes did, Fowler may have gotten more... not sure), and they've bounced around the league playing for a few teams. It's not fair to them, but until we see them play, it is what it is.

 

And "gold mine, sure-fire all pro" is an exaggeration... the difference is the 2nd or 3rd round pick doesn't have any obvious holes in their resume yet (unlike the journeymen FA's mentioned above) other than lack of experience... and the upside and potential to be good is far greater (though still unknown).

696001[/snapback]

Agree with Rico. Plus Fowler and Reyes spelled sideways looks a lot like Anderson Gandy and Teague. In other words, our track record of picking up linemen who nobody else wants and expecting us to be excited.. well history says be skeptical. Hope we're wrong ... but I doubt it.

[Rico]

Agree with Rico. Plus Fowler and Reyes spelled sideways  looks a lot like Anderson Gandy and Teague. In other words, our track record of picking up linemen who nobody else wants and expecting us to be excited.. well history says be skeptical. Hope we're wrong ... but I doubt it.

696290[/snapback]

Great point, the track record more than anything is reason to be skeptical. Now we've signed some nice undrafted FA's the past few years (ie. Peters), but other than maybe Mike Gandy I can't think of any cheap players picked up from other teams that were worth a damn. I don't know how the !@#$ John Guy is still employed by the Bills, it seems to me he's horrible at evaluating pro talent... if you throw out the higher-level FAs like TKO + Fletch, the lower-level FA's signed/ players traded for from other teams since 2001 have been atrocious.

To name a few:

Bobby Shaw

Mark Campbell

Trey Teague

Bennie Anderson

Greg Jerman

Travis Brown

Olandis Gary

Chidi Ahanatu

Eddie Robinson

Jeff Posey

Billy Jenkins

Izell Reese

Pierson Prioleau

I don't see any home runs, but I do see a lot of strike-outs.

 

Now I sure don't know how much of this was TD & how much of this was Guy, but nevertheless I'm not impressed with the Director of Pro Personnel for the Bills since 2001 at all.... and if Guy had anything to do with the lower-level FA's we acquired this year (and I believe he did), I'm going to continue to be skeptical until they prove me wrong on the field.

[VIVE LA FRANCE, VIVE LA GUERRE]

My FINAL (posted on 4/28/06) mock draft.

 

Round 1: DT Brodrick Bunkley Florida State

Round 2: OG Davin Joseph Oklahoma

Round 3A: S Darnell Bing USC

Round 3B: OT Jonathan Scott Texas

Round 4: RB Jerome Harrison Washington State

Round 5A: DE James Wyche Syracuse

Round 5B: LB Clint Ingram OKlahoma

Round 6: S Reed Doughty Northern Colorado

Round 7A: OG Chris Kuper North Dakota

Round 7B: WR Clinton Soloman Iowa

 

 

 

What f*cking accuracy sir!

[Pyrite Gal]

Great point, the track record more than anything is reason to be skeptical. Now we've signed some nice undrafted FA's the past few years (ie. Peters), but other than maybe Mike Gandy I can't think of any cheap players picked up from other teams that were worth a damn.

696307[/snapback]

 

The reason that I disagree with Rico's post is actually the track record.

 

The track record in question for OL development is not Jphn Guy's as director of pro personnel but actually Jim MaNally as an assesor of OL talent and OL line coach.

 

I think there is a marked difference between the assessment and development of OL players under JMac and under his not ready for primetime predeseccors Vinky and Ruel under GW.

 

While JMac has not been perfect (the case so far of Bennie Anderson is the sore thumb), I think his short two years here have also seen some interesting hits. Specifically:

 

1. Peters- The acquisition of this UDFA who could have gone anywhere he was asked and whom several teams apparently had interest in as a TE prospect was quite good. Alot of the credit for the progress itself goes to Peters' athleic talent (demonstrated by his ST play leading to a rookie TD and his O work at TE which got folks interested in him).

 

However, one should take into accont that it was JMac who clearly identified his potential talent as a tackle when actually it his blocking production as a TE which was in question, convinced him that tackle was the way for him to become a pro, cut him but kept him with the Bills on the PS and oversaw activating him when other teams were sniffing around this PS player.

 

2. Villarial has performed quite well for a semi-budget FA pick-up with his major downside being age rather than skill.

 

3. Gandy really surprised many of us when he proved to be at least adequate at LT last year, but JMac appears to have gotten this one right in entrusting LT duty to him and ignoring fan calls to play him at G.

 

4. 2004 OL- He really made something out of the disaster OL he inherited from Vinky/Ruel. He cut the garbage they had invested in like Pacillo and Sully, managed to squeeze performances which were part of the winning streak that season out of Tucker and whathisname from the Raven's PS to replace them, diagnosed and solved the redzone problems with the quick fix introduction of Bannan into the OL, and even managed the imploding MW into turning his career in record time from the meltdown he experienced when the Grammy who raised him died to him geting some note as the best OL player on the Bills squad in 2004.

 

Ultimately, all the leftovers from the Vinky days are gone (the resistance to many calls by fans to overpay Jennings has shown itself to be a good move given JJ immediately going on the IR last year for SF) and we will see whether Reyes/Fowler end up producing more like.

 

The other part of JMac track record is that he somehow took an OL led by former Bills Glenn Parker at LT and Dusty Ziegler at C and fashione this group into one capable of playing OL for an SB team. Prior to that he was possition coach for a couple of Bengals squads which made the SB and blocked productively for a 1000 yard rusher James Brooks and protected Kenny Anderson passing.

 

The track record of JMac (who has always said that he also is no miracle worker so expectations should be reasonable) is actually a good reason to be hopeful about the potential of Reyes and Fowler rather than going into a funk and being skeptical about our team.

 

trust but verify seems to be the way to go.

[Pyrite Gal]

It appears that neither Fowler or Reyes were wanted back by their previous teams, they were not pursued by anyone other than the Bills, they signed relatively cheap contracts (at least Reyes did, Fowler may have gotten more... not sure), and they've bounced around the league playing for a few teams. It's not fair to them, but until we see them play, it is what it is.

 

And "gold mine, sure-fire all pro" is an exaggeration... the difference is the 2nd or 3rd round pick doesn't have any obvious holes in their resume yet (unlike the journeymen FA's mentioned above) other than lack of experience... and the upside and potential to be good is far greater (though still unknown).

696001[/snapback]

 

I aggree that claiming folks credit draftees with being gold mine sure fire all pros is an exaggeration (for the most part). However, I think that probably due to an excellent marketing job by ESPN and also the popularity of fantasy leagues, folks put way too much stock in the draft as the centerpiece for how teams should be built.

 

Again, the draft is an important tool. Good players have to come from somewhere and good players tend to be drafted. However, there is a world of difference between the universe of all players and the more select field of 8 or so players a team get on average each year from the draft.

 

Folks routinely seem to identify the great performing NFL players and then wail that if they had only been listened to we should have picked them and never seem to take into account that the vast majority of second players are gone from the teams which selected them by the thrid season. In addition, even first round choices though reasonably expected to start their first year, really do appear to be a crapshoot as to whether they in fact are going to be worth their enormous slotted salaries.

 

It is fascinating to me that not only was 4th pick Mike Williams a bust, but so was 3rd pick Harrington and actually the 2nd tackle taken McKinnie turned out to be a better producer than MW (as if that says much at all) but overall I think has at the very least been a disappointment on the field (he has been adequate when he finally took the field after blowing his first season as a holdout and has at least bee manageable with the vet judgment and quick release of Brad Johnson not requiring him to hold blocks as long at Culpepper did when the Vikes failed to protect him).

 

In addition to his on field struggles, his off-field shenanigans as WM's favorite party animal seem to make him a horrible guy to root for (unless you like party boats where he faces charges or DWI charges as a form of entertainment though they have little to do -unless he gets some jail time- with on the field production).

 

Overall, TD's observation that 50% of even 1st round choices disappoint remains uncontroverted by anything more than fact-free opinion from what I have seen. On the face of it, the draft seems like far from the lead way you build a team as it contibutes only an average of 8 or so players per year to a 53 man roster and even over 3 years that not only is slightly less than half of the 53 men on the team, but of the 24 or so players drafted the majority+ of them are no longer with the team.

 

The draft is simply one method of player acquisition and actually far from the lead method of player acquisition on a winning team. The key is not to simply measure how many players on an SB team were drafted (my guess is almost all of them), the key is to understanding team building is to assess how many of these players were acqired by taht SB team drafting them.

[Rico]

The reason that I disagree with Rico's post is actually the track record.

 

The track record in question for OL development is not Jphn Guy's as director of pro personnel but actually Jim MaNally as an assesor of OL talent and OL line coach. 

696422[/snapback]

OL development is definitely on JMac, once they are here... but evaluating pro players on other teams & determining which one's to go after if & when they become available is on John Guy... unless you believe that he's merely a figure-head & the GM is performing this task (which could very well be)... either way, he's not earning his paycheck.

[Bill from NYC]

  However, I think that probably due to an excellent marketing job by ESPN and also the popularity of fantasy leagues, folks put way too much stock in the draft as the centerpiece for how teams should be built.

696441[/snapback]

 

The draft matters more to teams such as the Bills, Steelers and Bengals than it does to teams such as The Redskins, Seahawks or Cowboys, where the owners have an infinite supply of money, and a willingness to spend it on free agents.

 

I know that RW shelled out the big bucks for Spikes, and I commend him for doing so. The thing is, Snyder does this constantly. My point is that if the skins miss on a draft pick, they can simply cut/trade the player and sign a big name free agent. It would at least seem that RW doesn't have the means and/or the inclination do to so.

 

The Bills, Steelers and Bengal owners are wealthy by our standards, but not at all when compared to other owners. I cannot imagine Mr. Rooney or RW shelling out a 20 million dollar signing bonus to a star player. In fact, I expect the Bengals to lose a starter or 2 in free agency in 07.

This tells me that to acquire top players (or even very good players), the draft provides the most likely opportunity to do so.

[dundy249]

I thought Brad Hopkins retired. and not on that list is Ross Verba, unless the bucs signed him without much fan fair.  after releasing Mike williams of course

695972[/snapback]

 

 

The Bucs had Mike Williams???

 

 

Whats his 40 time?

 

[Pyrite Gal]

The draft matters more to teams such as the Bills, Steelers and Bengals than it does to teams such as The Redskins, Seahawks or Cowboys, where the owners have an infinite supply of money, and a willingness to spend it on free agents.

 

  I know that RW shelled out the big bucks for Spikes, and I commend him for doing so. The thing is, Snyder does this constantly. My point is that if the skins miss on a draft pick, they can simply cut/trade the player and sign a big name free agent. It would at least seem that RW doesn't have the means and/or the inclination do to so.

 

  The Bills, Steelers and Bengal owners are wealthy by our standards, but not at all when compared to other owners. I cannot imagine Mr. Rooney or RW shelling out a 20 million dollar signing bonus to a star player. In fact, I expect the Bengals to lose a starter or 2 in free agency in 07.

  This tells me that to acquire top players (or even very good players), the draft provides the most likely opportunity to do so.

696464[/snapback]

 

What you lay out is one of the reasons why the draft is ONE of the methods for building a team. I not only aggree with that but insist that is the case.

 

However, some folks would have your believe that is THE way to build a team and the centerpiece of any winning strategy. This I disagree with. Even for "poor" folks like Ralph and the Bills, the draft is more important for us than it is for Dan Snyder, but even for us the number of players on the roster that year on makes the draft a small % of our team and even the accumulation of three years of drafted players is below if not significantly below half the team.

 

The draft simply has far less import to building a winning team than some folks seem to understand who think it is the predominant way you build a team.

 

One need only look at our OL to see the Bills going in a very different direction in terms of building this unit as likely all of our starters will be collected through other mechanism. I think this fact and the over reliance on the draft in the thinking of many fans is why they are even more fit to be tied about the state and prospects of the OL,

 

Perhaps some fans are on the three year timeline for a draft to somehow be the centerpiece of team building (which can only happen if a team gets a whole bunch of choices right in this crapshoot we call the draft). However, one thing for certain is that Ralph would be a fool if he figured it was a deadlock cinch he will even be around in 3 years (I hope he is but probably not). Ralph and the Bills are investing in one of the few strategies on the OL for turning it around quickly which is buying second tier FAs.

 

JMac pulled this off before buying the Dusty Zieglers and Hlenn Parkers of the world and they are trying to do it again with Reyes and Fowler.

[Pyrite Gal]

OL development is definitely on JMac, once they are here... but evaluating pro players on other teams & determining which one's to go after if & when they become available is on John Guy... unless you believe that he's merely a figure-head & the GM is performing this task (which could very well be)... either way, he's not earning his paycheck.

696461[/snapback]

 

One of the prime mistakes folks make on TSW is that they make an assumption that there are only two choices and thats it. This may be good for arguing or if you are trying to excite your political base in a Presidential election, but that simply ain't how reality tends to work.

 

Sure Guy is in charge of pro development, but both he and you would be investing in a foolish strategy if you froze JMac or any other position coach out of the process os evaluating and choosing pro talent.

 

JMac has clearly laid out a vision for building the O-line and much like his recent successful work which was built with second tier FAs like Glenn Parker and Dusty Ziegler as mainstays of a unit which made the SB, so too are we getting second tier (some would argue 3rd tier FAs like Reyes and Fowler to work with.

 

If Guy is so important, then he is overseeing cutting the Bills (and in some cases professional) throats of guys he oversaw choosing like Mike Williams, Jonas Jennings, Teague etc.

 

Either you are decribing a world within which puppet-master and Svengali act-alike Guy has done a complete 180 and jettisoned all the guys he picked and somehow Ralph and now Marv have bought into his new vision which involves selecting 2nd tier FAs and demanding JMac train them.

 

Actually, what i think we are seeing here is that Vinky trotted out a vision for offensive genius GW and advocated selecting players to make that vision a reality and because he collaborated with GW/Sheppard (and then Kevin Killdrive) on this vision when it failed miserably it was Vinkys head that rolled, Guy was doing his job which was being a team guy and orchestrating implementing the vision of others, but when GWs head rolled, team player Guy hung around and did the same implementation work for MM.

 

Again heads rolled, but JMac who was not blamed for the debacle and Guy were kept aboard because they are team players, and most important JMac is a team player who succeeded in NY and Cincy with his work.

 

I think the undeniable massive change coincides with Vinky.Ruel going and JMac taking over.

[Rico]

One of the prime mistakes folks make on TSW is that they make an assumption that there are only two choices and thats it.  This may be good for arguing or if you are trying to excite your political base in a Presidential election, but that simply ain't how reality tends to work.

696760[/snapback]

One of the prime mistakes you make is not having a clue what a Director of Pro Personnel's responsibilities are. The duties of this position consist primarily of: "overseeing the scouting of the NFL, NFL-Europe, CFL, Arena League, and other leagues, evaluating potential free agents, evaluating the team’s own personnel, and the advance scouting of future opponents. "

 

Bottom line, the evaluating of potential free agents has sucked, no matter what percentage Guy had in making the final call in signing them.

[stuckincincy]

And bottom line, the evaluating of potential free agents has sucked, no matter what percentage Guy had in making the final call.

696796[/snapback]

 

 

Well, other than TKO and a long snapper, the Bills' FA aquisitions as of the end of last season haven't been much to rave about. The recent crop might do better - I hope.

[The Jokeman]

My FINAL (posted on 4/28/06) mock draft.

 

Round 1: DT Brodrick Bunkley Florida State

Round 2: OG Davin Joseph Oklahoma

Round 3A: S Darnell Bing USC

Round 3B: OT Jonathan Scott Texas

Round 4: RB Jerome Harrison Washington State

Round 5A: DE James Wyche Syracuse

Round 5B: LB Clint Ingram OKlahoma

Round 6: S Reed Doughty Northern Colorado

Round 7A: OG Chris Kuper North Dakota

Round 7B: WR Clinton Soloman Iowa

What f*cking accuracy sir!

696315[/snapback]

Muchas gracias.

[Pyrite Gal]

One of the prime mistakes you make is not having a clue what a Director of Pro Personnel's responsibilities are. The duties of this position consist primarily of: "overseeing the scouting of the NFL, NFL-Europe, CFL, Arena League, and other leagues, evaluating potential free agents, evaluating the team’s own personnel, and the advance scouting of future opponents. "

 

Bottom line, the evaluating of potential free agents has sucked, no matter what percentage Guy had in making the final call in signing them.

696796[/snapback]

 

This still leaves my question that if this so clearly Guys final call, wha pictures of Ralph does he have or whatever reason such that he escaped having his head roll over bad moves like the evaluation of FAs like Teague or our own personnel from promoted folks like Sullivan and Pacillo on our OL.

 

Instead of the Teflon Guy GW demoted his longtime buddy Vinky from the OL job instead of finding fault with Guy. As time went on GW himself paid the price but MM kept his trust in Guy.

 

Meanwhile even MM and Clements had their head roll but yet Guy gets to make the call anyway.

 

Actually, i think its far more collaborative than 1 guy (or Guy) having the call and its about to get even more collaborative if Marv stays the same.

 

I can easily see the definition you quote as being correct but the way you oversee things is not that your make all the decisions, but you oversee that all the decision are being made and articulated clearly so the rest of the machine that must ork together to work at all gets things done.

 

In the end, i think Guy keeps his job because he is a good team player who helps the HC, coordinators and position coaches design a scheme and do what they want to do. I think Guy has escaped blame for the scheme debacles because he always did his job and oversaw the schemes developed by others getting implemented the way they wanted.

 

Do you really think that this is all his fault and yet Marv amd Ralph are going to trust in this failure to now finally get it right?

 

If what you say is true then we really have little hope.

[Rico]

This still leaves my question that if this so clearly Guys final call,

<snip>

Do you really think that this is all his fault and yet Marv amd Ralph are going to trust in this failure to now finally get it right?

696924[/snapback]

 

Post 25 of this thread:

Now I sure don't know how much of this was TD & how much of this was Guy, but nevertheless I'm not impressed with the Director of Pro Personnel for the Bills since 2001 at all.... and if Guy had anything to do with the lower-level FA's we acquired this year (and I believe he did), I'm going to continue to be skeptical until they prove me wrong on the field.

696307[/snapback]

[Mark VI]

RB Steven Davis is injury prone and done as a full time starter.

 

I still wouldn't mind using him on 3rd and 1 or 1st and Goal situations. He's a horse who can still plow forward for 3 yards after the initial contact. On this team, that could prove invaluable.

[obie_wan]

This still leaves my question that if this so clearly Guys final call, wha pictures of Ralph does he have or whatever reason such that he escaped having his head roll over bad moves like the evaluation of FAs like Teague or our own personnel from promoted folks like Sullivan and Pacillo on our OL.

 

696924[/snapback]

 

 

Probasbly the same stuff that convinced Marv and Ralph to keep Mullarkey

 

- until he quit on his own.