Offensive Free Agents still available

[Rico]

Probasbly the same stuff that convinced Marv and Ralph to keep Mullarkey

 

- until he quit on his own. 

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$$$???

He can't be making that much, can he?

 

At first I thought he got canned with TD.

[BUFFALOTONE]

Hey, as a Bills Fan, taking a blind and stupid approach is probably the right thing to do in terms of this draft. After all, it really is a done deal.

 

If you think that this was a good draft, I envy you.

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I believe this was a good draft, we addressed some needs in the secondary that have been ignored and filled with temp players. Lets be honest Milloy couldnt cover and TV is getting older and has lost a big step especially now that he is a safety. Buildin our secondary is the right thing to do. As far as grabbing an OL or DL with our spot I think we got a good deal with Mccargo let give the draft a chance before we bash it to sh--.

[Pyrite Gal]

Probasbly the same stuff that convinced Marv and Ralph to keep Mullarkey

 

- until he quit on his own. 

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If you actually believe Guy is responsible (primairily or in large part for choosing the ill-fated direction of the O under Sheppard (I'm not sure when he arrived but it has been awhile) and then had large or primary final decision making on the players to run that ill-fated scheme he could get players for AND then did the same choosing the O scheme utilized Clements and having final say about the players to run that, and after all of this he still survives and is now making the same final call for Marv (whew thats a lot of failure he had the final call on), I do not know why you would align yourselves with the Bills unless you have some exraordinary desire to be a part of pain.

 

If your and Rico's cut on this is true, then the fundamental question for the Bills is why after Guy has produced such a repeated record of failure participating in the selection of one failed scheme after another (and then another in reality) and has the final call on which players are gonna implement that scheme, how has he escaped accounting for these failures while Sheppard, Killdrive, GW, Clements, and MM have all been fired or let go for these failureds.

 

I think you way over-estimate Guys role an import in choosing these three-illfated schemes and actually really over-estimate Guys role as Pro Personnel Director of doing what he is told well enogh to keep his job, but simply not deciding himself on what will be done.

 

He may even have something as individualistic determanistic as the "final call " described in the above posts (though I think the final call is really about managing the collaboration to a final decision rather than laying out and enforcing "the Guy plan."

 

He appears to me to do his job and keep his job because whomever is really taking the lead in making the final call on the scheme, he is a team player who work with that person to help them do what they want to do.

 

As best as I can tell, his position as Director of Pro Personel is that he seems to adequately (or maybe even performs well) a set of functional tasks) where he can understand to his bosses satisfaction what they want to run

 

(ex. 1. GW and his OC Sheppard decide they are gonna go west coast offense,

2. Sheppard makes clear and Guy demonstrates clear understanding of the players want,

3. Sheppard has worked with Vinky and correctly identified shoring up the OL as a major need and Guy gets the job of seeing which FAs within the budget TD set can fit that need

4. Guy comes back to Sheppard as the season goes on and says his evaluation of pro personnel indicates its gonna be hard to afford within our cap hell budget the type of players the Bills need. However, there are ways to potentially acquire the players we want from the draft, player development and FA. Guy then chooses Teague and slots him in a C based on his evaluation, thinks JJ should be LT based on his evaluation of our team, moves Sully to LG based on his evaluation, decides to keep Reuben, etc. and then assigns GW's buddy to train them because he does scheme and Vinky does training.

5. It all falls apart Vinky gets demoted by his longtime buddy and Guy keeps rolling along gaining responsibility.

 

Everybody (Vinky, GW,Sheppard, Killdrive) gets let go but puppetaster Guy gets more.

 

He then does the same thing with MM Clements and they get let go and he keeps right on going.

 

This sounds so unlikely, i think it is fairly clear that your theory of how this works and who is control (and thus who gets blamed) is not the case.

[Bill from NYC]

I believe this was a good draft, we addressed some needs in the secondary that have been ignored and filled with temp players. Lets be honest Milloy couldnt cover and TV is getting older and has lost a big step especially now that he is a safety. Buildin our secondary is the right thing to do. As far as grabbing an OL or DL with our spot I think we got a good deal with Mccargo let give the draft a chance before we bash it to sh--.

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I was NOT against improving the secondary. It WAS a need. Anybody who follows the Bills knows this.

That said, don't you think that an early 1st, 3rd and 4th (while giving away an early pick to move up) was a bit much, given our other areas of dire need?

[obie_wan]

 

If your and Rico's cut on this is true, then the fundamental question for the Bills is why after Guy has produced such a repeated record of failure participating in the selection of one failed scheme after another (and then another in reality) and has the final call on which players are gonna implement that scheme, how has he escaped accounting for these failures while Sheppard, Killdrive, GW, Clements, and MM have all been fired or let go for these failureds.

 

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The question was why would they retain Guy if was so bad.

 

Well, after considerable evaluation, Marv and the brain trust decided to keep Mullarkey even though he was a total failure as a HC. He quit on his own.

 

With such astute evaluation techniques, maybe they missed a few flaws in John Guy's performance as well.

[Rico]

This sounds so unlikely

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Exactly. You have a very fertile imagination.

No one but you said he was the puppetmaster.

 

Once again.. the lower level free-agents acquired by the Bills in the TD era have been atrocious. Since Guy has been the Director of Pro Personnel since 2001, he must shelter at least some responsibility for the team's shortcomings here. If he was highly involved, he should've been fired with TD IMO. If he was not highly involved, then he is just a figure-head and should also leave. If he had anything to do with the 2006 FA's acquired by the Bills, then they are very suspect based on the team's track record since he has held the position, and have to prove themselves on the field before I can take them seriously.

[Pyrite Gal]

Exactly. You have a very fertile imagination.

No one but you said he was the puppetmaster.

 

Once again.. the lower level free-agents acquired by the Bills in the TD era have been atrocious. Since Guy has been the Director of Pro Personnel since 2001, he must shelter at least some responsibility for the team's shortcomings here. If he was highly involved, he should've been fired with TD IMO. If he was not highly involved, then he is just a figure-head and should also leave. If he had anything to do with the 2006 FA's acquired by the Bills, then they are very suspect based on the team's track record since he has held the position, and have to prove themselves on the field before I can take them seriously.

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Definitely Guy is not the pupper master and I used this phrase as this is the impression given by comments such as one which tried to segregate JMac's work from Guy's work as though the position coach is only responsble for training and the Director of Pro Personnel is responsible for or has "the final call" on player acquistions.

 

It really does take a fertile imagination to conjure up a world in which it is Guy who should be held accountable for the Bills miscues.

 

He certainly bears partial responsiblity as all the Bills front office does for the record on non-playoff runs while they were in charge.

 

However, again I think that it takes an extreme view that probably is not the reality at all to conclude either Guy should be held accountable for the miscues or he is simply a figure head.

 

Certainly there are a bunch of folks who have been in the Bills leadership since 2001 who have not been held accountable with the cost of their jobs for the team's failures during that time (Ralph primarily among them but its pretty impossible for anyone to hold the team owner accountable).

 

To me the far more logical explanation of why Guy is still around that he may in fact work very hard and do quite well as a functionary and essentially a logistical manager for the team.

 

Whether it was GW's dumb ideas after he was foolishly hired by TD, or MM's failed ideas after TD got a mulligan for GW and hired MM, what Guy has done well is OVERSEEN the evaluation of players on other teams, other leagues, the Bills own personnel etc.

 

His job does not appear to be to make decisions about what the data and opinions he collects means, but really to do the logistical work of making sure that this data and opinions are collected.

 

I can easily see how Marv and Jauron could want to keep Guy around, if one thing they require is to make sure that they have a bunch of scouts flying all over the country covering a bunch of games. That those scouts give back information and their opinions about what they saw in some standardized and comprehensive way, and that all this info showed up my desk and I could easily link to it in a computer when I wanted.

 

If Guy provided good order and complete info in a timely way to GW so he could then make his lamo decisions with input, and likewise Guy oversaw getting this same quality and amount of info to MM so he could make his bad judgments, iy would be dumb of me to fire my Director of Pro Personnel because of bad choices GW or MM made with this data.

 

Guy does bear responsibility for 2001 on like all of them bear responsibility. However, you create intelligent accountability by firing the idiots like GW and Vinky for making the decisions to fly the plane into a mountain, not the mechanic who made sure the engines worked on the plane.

 

From all I can see in the real world as far as whose head rolled for the all acknowledged and easy to see bad decisions, it simply makes no sense that Guy is a figurehead. My sense is he does a good job as a manger of a sprawling national operation making sure that visits are done and reports are made in a timely and usable manner.

 

In fact, there are so many people involved (scouts, players, teams) over such a large geographic area, you have to have a high level person in charge of the logistics or it simply will not work,

 

My sense is that the proof is in the pudding that Guy has made it possible for GW and MM to puish their foolish plans and that Marv and Jauron are happy to have him to do the same job of oversight to get them the info they want to make decisions. Lets just hope the result is not as bad as it was with GW and MM making decisions under TD.

[Rico]

Definitely Guy is not the pupper master and I used this phrase as this is the impression given by comments such as one which tried to segregate JMac's work from Guy's work as though the position coach is only responsble for training and the Director of Pro Personnel is responsible for or has "the final call" on player acquistions.

 

It really does take a fertile imagination to conjure up a world in which it is Guy who should be held accountable for the Bills miscues.

 

He certainly bears partial responsiblity as all the Bills front office does for the record on non-playoff runs while they were in charge.

 

However, again I think that it takes an extreme view that probably is not the reality at all to conclude either Guy should be held accountable for the miscues or he is simply a figure head.

 

Certainly there are a bunch of folks who have been in the Bills leadership since 2001 who have not been held accountable with the cost of their jobs for the team's failures during that time (Ralph primarily among them but its pretty impossible for anyone to hold the team owner accountable).

 

To me the far more logical explanation of why Guy is still around that he may in fact work very hard and do quite well as a functionary and essentially a logistical manager for the team.

 

Whether it was GW's dumb ideas after he was foolishly hired by TD, or MM's failed ideas after TD got a mulligan for GW and hired MM, what Guy has done well is OVERSEEN  the evaluation of players on other teams, other leagues, the Bills own personnel etc.

 

His job does not appear to be to make decisions about what the data and opinions he collects  means, but really to do the logistical work of making sure that this data and opinions are collected.

 

I can easily see how Marv and Jauron could want to keep Guy around, if one thing they require is to make sure that they have a bunch of scouts flying all over the country covering a bunch of games.  That those scouts give back information and their opinions about what they saw in some standardized and comprehensive way, and that all this info showed up my desk and I could easily link to it in a computer when I wanted.

 

If Guy provided good order and complete info in a timely way to GW so he could then make his lamo decisions with input, and likewise Guy oversaw getting this same quality and amount of info to MM so he could make his bad judgments, iy would be dumb of me to fire my Director of Pro Personnel because of bad choices GW or MM made with this data.

 

Guy does bear responsibility for 2001 on like all of them bear responsibility.  However, you create intelligent accountability by firing the idiots like GW and Vinky for making the decisions to fly the plane into a mountain, not the mechanic who made sure the engines worked on the plane.

 

From all I can see in the real world as far as whose head rolled for the all acknowledged and easy to see bad decisions, it simply makes no sense that Guy is a figurehead.  My sense is he does a good job as a manger of a sprawling national operation making sure that visits are done and reports are made in a timely and usable manner.

 

In fact, there are so many people involved (scouts, players, teams) over such a large geographic area, you have to have a high level person in charge of the logistics or it simply will not work,

 

My sense is that the proof is in the pudding that Guy has made it possible for GW and MM to puish their foolish plans and that Marv and Jauron are happy to have him to do the same job of oversight to get them the info they want to make decisions. Lets just hope the result is not as bad as it was with GW and MM making decisions under TD.

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Now that's more like it, you make some very good points here!

 

I do not believe him to be nothing but a figurehead either, though I do not discount that it could be possible... I was just showing the two extemes.

[Pyrite Gal]

Now that's more like it, you make some very good points here!

 

I do not believe him to be nothing but a figurehead either, though I do not discount that it could be possible... I was just showing the two extemes.

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As long as you are not silly enough to buy either extreme I think this is cool (not that anyone cares much what anyone else on the internet thinks).

 

My sense is that Guy is simply more of a logistical manager than a vision manager selling his ideas. Under this framework it can make a lot of sense to hire him (again and again apprarently as he has played this role in the several versions of schemes in the GW reign of error, played this role under different leaders running different schemes under MM and is going to play the same role under different schemes for completely different leadership under Marv and Jauron.

 

Either the Bills are operating completely contrary to the hiring/firing accountabilitu which has made the free market so successful (and I think is a primary reason for screw-ups by our el Presidente in Iraq and elsewhere that he values loyalty over competence big time, but thats another thread amd board).

 

I really doubt that Guy has survived so much hiring and firing in the last 5 years due to him having compromising pictures of Ralph, out of political correctness or whatever ideological foolishness folks choose to believe.

 

I think he gets valued and rehired because he is a very good manager and a team player who is great at making this complex train run on time as he oversees the scouts and an international intelligence gathering network. He likely gets hired (again and again( because his is not about the content of the decisions, but is very good at getting reports about the particulars of players in multiple leagues at multiple levels on multiple teams to the decision makers in a timely and understandable way so that they can make the decisions.

 

My sense is that it is simply incorrect to believe that the OL development methods and decisions were Guys ideas or his final call. The method was at initiative of Vinky, Ruel and then JMsc working first with what they got to build a system that fit the schemes of Sheppard, then Killdrive, next Clements and now within a context provided by Farrell.

 

To believe differently would mean also believing that Guy somehow had the final call on the selection of players for the OL scheme and somehow survived the failure of his OL unit schemes time after time. One would also have to believe he bears significant responsibility for these schemes and survived having 3 OCs fired out from over him and then got hired to have te final call again.

 

To buy into this would be so silly I do not see it happening. What simply makes more sense is that he is the furthest thing from a figurehead in generating a lot of intelligence which allows others to actually make the decisions.

 

Managing this sprawling global (with NFL Europe and the CFL as part of his oversight) would take far more take far more than a figurehead to run it well. Yet, he may have no role in really making decisions of which scheme we run and still be far more than a figurehear to manage this system to make it work.