BOTTOM LINE.......

[drhockey]

I would be curious to poll the other "low revenue club" owners to see if they have as much problem with or are as in the dark over these qualifiers.

[Lurker]

indeed. they can't help the hand they were dealt geographically, but don't tell me it couldn't work with increased pull in Rachacha and T.O.

 

I mean, Green Bay, Cleveland and Jacksonville aren't exactly hotbeds of growth, either, but you don't hear their owners out griping in the media now that the plan is done, do you?

655709[/snapback]

 

I don't see the problem as simple attendance. They draw very well from Rochester and southern Ontario. What they can't manufacture, however, is more companies to buy expensive Luxury Boxes.

 

A fan (Joe Six Pack, if you will) might be willing to drive 2+ hours to sit on a metal bench to watch a game, but corporate types aren't going to kill a whole day driving to/from Buffalo from more than 150 miles away to entertain clients.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

I don't see the problem as simple attendance.  They draw very well from Rochester and southern Ontario.  What they can't manufacture, however, is more companies to buy expensive Luxury Boxes. 

 

A fan (Joe Six Pack, if you will) might be willing to drive 2+ hours to sit on a metal bench to watch a game, but corporate types aren't going to kill a whole day driving to/from Buffalo from more than 150 miles away to entertain clients.

655719[/snapback]

 

Then those are the parameters you have to work with. if this is the way the system is, then you have to be the football equivalent of the Cleveland Indians or Oakland A's rather than the Royals or Pirates.

[drhockey]

I don't see the problem as simple attendance.  They draw very well from Rochester and southern Ontario.  What they can't manufacture, however, is more companies to buy expensive Luxury Boxes. 

 

A fan (Joe Six Pack, if you will) might be willing to drive 2+ hours to sit on a metal bench to watch a game, but corporate types aren't going to kill a whole day driving to/from Buffalo from more than 150 miles away to entertain clients.

655719[/snapback]

 

 

Again, good point, but i think that falls in line with the status and popularity of the team at the given time. If the team is hot and the buzz of the town, sponsors or business will want to be a part and jump on the bandwagon to try to get a piece. That's what appeared to happen during the Flutie-era, as he single-handedly sold boxes on his popularity and the team's rising popularity.

 

But, i do agree that the area lacks a sufficient corporate presence. That is bad.

[JDG]

Then those are the parameters you have to work with. if this is the way the system is, then you have to be the football equivalent of the Cleveland Indians or Oakland A's rather than the Royals or Pirates.

655721[/snapback]

 

Of course, how many World Series have the Indians and A's won recently? Is that the best that can be hoped for - to occasionally make the playoffs?

 

JDG

[Lurker]

Again, good point, but i think that falls in line with the status and popularity of the team at the given time.  If the team is hot and the buzz of the town, sponsors or business will want to be a part and jump on the bandwagon to try to get a piece.  That's what appeared to happen during the Flutie-era, as he single-handedly sold boxes on his popularity and the team's rising popularity.

 

But, i do agree that the area lacks a sufficient corporate presence.  That is bad.

655726[/snapback]

 

Luxury boxes are a long-term commitment. They don't go on sale like season's tix every year. Very few small and mid-sized businesses are willing to step up and make a 5+ year commitment--it takes Fortune 1000 type companies to have entertainment budgets like that.

[JDG]

indeed. they can't help the hand they were dealt geographically, but don't tell me it couldn't work with increased pull in Rachacha and T.O.

 

As I've noted before, even the combined Buffalo-Rochester metro area ain't that big, and its even less-so if you let other cities form combined metro areas. (i.e. Buffalo-Rochester may be bigger than Cincinnati, but is smaller than Cincinnati-Dayton.) The loonie also doesn't go as far as the US dollar, and in any case, Toronto is a long ways away. Toronto helps, but again, Buffalo is hardly the only market that would benefit from including everything in a 90 minute radius.

 

 

I mean, Green Bay, Cleveland and Jacksonville aren't exactly hotbeds of growth, either, but you don't hear their owners out griping in the media now that the plan is done, do you?

655709[/snapback]

 

This is where it gets ugly.

 

Population Change from 1990 - 2000

Cleveland-Akron metro area: +3.0%

Green Bay metro area: +16.5%

Milwaukee metro area: +5.1%

Jacksonville metro area: +21.4%

 

Buffalo metro area: -1.6% - the worst performance of the Top 50 metro areas

 

So actually, compared to Buffalo, all of those other areas *are* hotbeds of growth. Cleveland, by the way, has more than twice as many people as Buffalo. Combine Buffalo and Rochester and Cleveland is still 22% larger! Sure, Jacksonville may be smaller, but they're going to pass Buffalo almost any year now.

 

JDG

[krazykat]

I know our ticket prices are low in comparison to the rest of the league, but does anyone have a listing of the average ticket cost league wide??

 

I have seen it before, but can't find it quickly.

 

I know this is only part of it, but if the Bills had a team on the field like all of us wish they would have, I would have no problem paying higher ticket prices.  Especially, considering there are only eight games.  Not to mention that i live 3000 miles away and always come home for games regardless.

 

I find it hard to believe that the city/region would not pay higher prices for tickets if the team was far more competitive and successful than it is now.  Let's face it, right now morale is very low for this team and it's coming at a bad time.

655611[/snapback]

It's simple supply and demand.

 

If you put the median salary figures next to those ticket prices, I'm sure that you would see a parallel.

 

At $75 a pop, Washington, that's $600 for a single season ticket, more if you have to buy the preseason tix. How many in Buffalo can afford to shell out over a grand for a pair of season tickets? How many would want to?

[krazykat]

Again, good point, but i think that falls in line with the status and popularity of the team at the given time.  If the team is hot and the buzz of the town, sponsors or business will want to be a part and jump on the bandwagon to try to get a piece.  That's what appeared to happen during the Flutie-era, as he single-handedly sold boxes on his popularity and the team's rising popularity.

 

But, i do agree that the area lacks a sufficient corporate presence.  That is bad.

655726[/snapback]

There's a lot of untapped corporate presence in Rochester. If it didn't take two hours to and from games then maybe that would open up.

[krazykat]

As I've noted before, even the combined Buffalo-Rochester metro area ain't that big, and its even less-so if you let other cities form combined metro areas.  (i.e. Buffalo-Rochester may be bigger than Cincinnati, but is smaller than Cincinnati-Dayton.)    The loonie also doesn't go as far as the US dollar, and in any case, Toronto is a long ways away.  Toronto helps, but again, Buffalo is hardly the only market that would benefit from including everything in a 90 minute radius.

This is where it gets ugly.

 

Population Change from 1990 - 2000

Cleveland-Akron metro area: +3.0%

Green Bay metro area: +16.5%

Milwaukee metro area: +5.1%

Jacksonville metro area: +21.4%

 

Buffalo metro area: -1.6% - the worst performance of the Top 50 metro areas

 

So actually, compared to Buffalo, all of those other areas *are* hotbeds of growth.  Cleveland, by the way, has more than twice as many people as Buffalo.  Combine Buffalo and Rochester and Cleveland is still 22% larger!    Sure, Jacksonville may be smaller, but they're going to pass Buffalo almost any year now.

 

JDG

655748[/snapback]

That doesn't even factor in the rate of decline since 2000 which has also been negative.

[apuszczalowski]

Buffalo does not have the economy to be able to support a team where tickets are going to cost $50 for the cheapest seats. In case you haven't noticed, they seem to be losing more companies then they are bringing in.

 

People were complaining about the couple buck increase in tickets they annouce after last season, now you believe they will support the team paying an extra 10-12 a ticket?

[JDG]

There's a lot of untapped corporate presence in Rochester.  If it didn't take two hours to and from games then maybe that would open up.

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There's some, but not a lot. And given the past 10 years or so now of regional marketing by the Bills, I seriously doubt that that presence is "untapped" at this point....

 

In the 2004 Fortune 500, there were ZERO Fortune 500 companies in Buffalo. Indeed, the only Fortunate 500 company in all of Upstate New York was Eastman Kodak - which isn't exactly rolling in dough these days.

 

By comparison:

Pittsburgh - 7

Cincinnati - 7

Cleveland - 7

Milwaukee - 7

 

Memphis - 4

Columbus - 4

Jacksonville - 3

Toledo - 3

Oklahoma City - 3

Louisville - 3

Birmingham - 2

Little Rock - 2

Green Bay - 1

 

Gosh this is depressing.....

 

JDG

[obie_wan]

This is my thinking as well. Ralph could close the gap VERY quickly with marquee hires at coach and the front office, not to mention big-time free agency and solid drafts. The team, if it was winning 12+ games a year, would garner quite a bit of national press and publicity and hence uni and merchandise sales.

655632[/snapback]

 

or he could overpay for underperforming big names like Adams, Milloy, Bledsoe which did squat to win games but increased the spending gap.

[Tom]

In the 2004 Fortune 500, there were ZERO Fortune 500 companies in Buffalo.  Indeed, the only Fortunate 500 company in all of Upstate New York was Eastman Kodak - which isn't exactly rolling in dough these days.

 

By comparison:

Pittsburgh - 7

Cincinnati - 7

Cleveland - 7

Milwaukee - 7

 

Memphis - 4

Columbus - 4

Jacksonville - 3

Toledo - 3

Oklahoma City - 3

Louisville - 3

Birmingham - 2

Little Rock - 2

Green Bay - 1

 

 

Green Bay? What company is that, the Packers?

[JDG]

Green Bay? What company is that, the Packers?  

655934[/snapback]

 

I was surprised too: #395 - WPS Resources.

 

All told, Green Bay-Milwaukee-Madison has 10 Fortune 500 companies.

 

Buffalo-Rochester-Niagara Falls-Syracuse-Bighamton-Jamestown: 1

 

Yuck.

 

JDG

[IndyMark]

I mean, Green Bay, Cleveland and Jacksonville aren't exactly hotbeds of growth, either, but you don't hear their owners out griping in the media now that the plan is done, do you?

655709[/snapback]

 

 

Just for your information, Green Bay does not have the traditional owner that you imply. So of course they do not come out in the media and gripe. The traditional business model or communication models, for that matter, do not really apply to them.

 

So maybe it is more accurate to state JAX and Cleve...but then again, JAX will be in trouble if attendance does not increase over the next 2-4 seasons. Then, they will be more vocal.

 

..expecting a sarcastic and fairly limited response in 5....4....3....2...

[Tux of Borg]

Kudos to Ralph for calling out the league. The NFL is on a dangerous road to inheriting the problems of MLB. I wouldn't be surprised to see the big market teams push in 4 years to remove the salary cap.

[kasper13]

The way I understand it is this way:

 

If RW were to sell the team to new owners, under the new CBA, the new owners would not qualify for revenue sharing. That would be a death blow to the Bills in Buffalo.

 

If RW leaves the team to a family member(s) after he dies, they will have to pay a huge inheritance tax whether or not they sell the team. No revenue sharing for the new owners in this situation as well. Also a death blow.

 

In the current situation, selling the naming rights to the stadium wouldn't help at all. Building a new $600 million+ stadium wouldn't help at all. The Bills are almost maxed out as far as ticket prices/attendance goes. More suites. luxury boxes, higer priced seats wouldn't sell. RW is not losing money now but the Bills can't compete with the high revenue teams for free agents. RW can't throw multi-million dollar signing bonus money around like nickels.

 

Add it all up and you get "perfect storm" conditions for the Bills leaving town after RW dies. If he were 68, no big deal, but he is 88. Blame Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones for the current situation. If the new breed of NFL owners had their way, every stadium would be 80,000 seats consisting of nothing but luxury boxes & suites filled by people in suits.

[Lori]

The way I understand it is this way:

 

If RW were to sell the team to new owners, under the new CBA, the new owners would not qualify for revenue sharing. That would be a death blow to the Bills in Buffalo.

 

If RW leaves the team to a family member(s) after he dies, they will have to pay a huge inheritance tax whether or not they sell the team. No revenue sharing for the new owners in this situation as well. Also a death blow.

 

In the current situation, selling the naming rights to the stadium wouldn't help at all. Building a new $600 million+ stadium wouldn't help at all. The Bills are almost maxed out as far as ticket prices/attendance goes. More suites. luxury boxes, higer priced seats wouldn't sell. RW is not losing money now but the Bills can't compete with the high revenue teams for free agents. RW can't throw multi-million dollar signing bonus money around like nickels.

 

Add it all up and you get  "perfect storm" conditions for the Bills leaving town after RW dies.  If he were 68, no big deal, but he is 88. Blame Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones for the current situation. If the new breed of NFL owners had their way, every stadium would be 80,000 seats consisting of nothing but luxury boxes & suites filled by people in suits.

656020[/snapback]

Agree totally, with one addition: each of those stadia (stadii?) would be in a top-20 market.

 

"And the money kept rolling in from every side...."

[Kelly the Dog]

The way I understand it is this way:

 

If RW were to sell the team to new owners, under the new CBA, the new owners would not qualify for revenue sharing. That would be a death blow to the Bills in Buffalo.

 

If RW leaves the team to a family member(s) after he dies, they will have to pay a huge inheritance tax whether or not they sell the team. No revenue sharing for the new owners in this situation as well. Also a death blow.

 

In the current situation, selling the naming rights to the stadium wouldn't help at all. Building a new $600 million+ stadium wouldn't help at all. The Bills are almost maxed out as far as ticket prices/attendance goes. More suites. luxury boxes, higer priced seats wouldn't sell. RW is not losing money now but the Bills can't compete with the high revenue teams for free agents. RW can't throw multi-million dollar signing bonus money around like nickels.

 

Add it all up and you get  "perfect storm" conditions for the Bills leaving town after RW dies.  If he were 68, no big deal, but he is 88. Blame Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones for the current situation. If the new breed of NFL owners had their way, every stadium would be 80,000 seats consisting of nothing but luxury boxes & suites filled by people in suits.

656020[/snapback]

 

I believe each team now gets 116 mil a season before selling one ticket o jersey or luxury box from the new TV contracts signed last year. Way up from before. It's virtually impossible to lose money now, when it wasnt before. The vast majority of the cost of the running team doesn't start until the second week of September when the players start getting paid for real. Ralph can throw crazy money around in signing bonuses if he wishes. He doesn't wish.