Heels20X6 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Losman started 8 games. You might want to start with some ACTUAL facts before you start arguing. It usually adds more credence to the arguement. 636891[/snapback] Oh he had 8 starts? In that case we should cut him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Oh he had 8 starts?In that case we should cut him. 636900[/snapback] Did I say for the response to you. NOOOOOOOOOOOO..... I said you should get your facts straight before you argue. At least then people might actually give your opinion some respect. But if you start off lying and presenting falsehoods from the beginning your whole arguement becomes invalid even if it is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oneonta Buffalo Fan Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Oh he had 8 starts?In that case we should cut him. 636900[/snapback] Honestly who would you want as our starting qb. Nall, who's played behind Farve. Or Losman who has yet to prove himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDG Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Your an ass...do you really want to argue that Eli's 1st season was significantly better than JP's? Honestly? OK, how about this: Name-calling ignored. 1) JP has a BETTER completion % in his 1st year than Eli does. 49% to 48%. YAY JP!!!! But this simply shows how aggregate stats can obscure the real story. JP had one good game at home in his first start against the worst team in football and went downhill from there. He had another decent game in relief against the KC Chiefs, who weren't exactly a juggernaut. Eli started 7 games as a rookie, including three playoff teams in Atlanta, Philadelphia, and Pittsburgh, and two road games against Washington and Baltimore, who had two of the best defenses in the League. JP, as a second-year player, stunk up the joint against New Orleans in San Antonio, and an Atlanta team that wasn't making the playoffs. Overall, six of his nine games were against non-playoff teams. 2) JP has a significantly HIGHER QB rating than Eli did (65 vs 55) Further evidence that QB Rating is a quirky stat of limited use. 3) JP threw for MORE TDs and FEWER INT's than Eli did (And Eli had ~80 more pass attempts than JP) Sorry, you confused yourself here. JP had 228 attempts as a second-year player. Eli had 197. Eli threw 6 TDs and 9 picks, JP threw 8 and 8. 4) JP threw for over 1300 yards, Eli had 1000 yards (And Eli had ~80 more pass attempts than JP) (And JP also ran for 150+ yards) 5) JP had a higher yards per pass attempt than Eli (5.9 vs. 5.3) This is again a situation where aggregate stats cloud the true picture. The simple truth is that Eli Manning, as a rookie, *got better* - and more importantly, turned in two fully competent performances in his final three games - including one against the Steelers' defense. JP, however, even as a second-year player, never reached the point of turning in a "complete, fully competent, game." If JP Losman had done this even once down the stretch, I would not be harping on the aggregate stats. I don't have a problem with JP struggling early - I do have a problem about him not getting better to the point of competence. You say "Moreover, Eli Manning as a rookie broke 65% twice.... Losman - never."I say"Moreover, Eli Manning as a rookie broke 30% twice.....Losman - never." --> Eli had a game where he went 4 for 18 -- 4 for 18!!! JP went 7 of 15. Whopee! Eli's worst game came against the vaunted Baltimore Ravens, on the road, as a rookie. JP's worst start came against the New Orleans Saints, playing in San Antonio - as a second year player. Advantage: Eli. BTW, you also didn't read that post you replied to....says the duration of time BEFORE a QB completes 60% over a season is usually a few years....nobody said JP HAD a 60% completion rate! Again, I'm not interested in aggregate stats. I'm not going to hold early struggles against a QB. I am, however, going to look for them to eventually put together solid single-game performances. That's the difference between JP's second year and Eli's rookie year. Do you understand? You can spin the numbers however u like. Bottom line is they both have very similar stats in the 1st year....not great. What you don't understand is that all levels of "abysmal" aren't created equal. JP's performance last year was *NOT* typical of the early struggles of QB's that go on to future success, but was, in fact, substantially worse. That's not to say that he couldn't eventually turn it around (his first numbers bear some similarities to Elway's rookie numbers, for example) - but he could also be the next Cade McNown, Heath Shuler, Rick Mirer, or David Klingler. JDG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Is Marv Awake? Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 How about this? Before sending JP to the scrap heap? Let's get him an offensive line to protect him? It's not to late for the Bills to start. They stil have time to trade for and draft O-Linemen. Let's give JP more then 1-2 seconds to read a defense before it's decided that he can't. It's amazing how ghosts from the past get more of a benefit of the doubt then some of the sparse talent the team has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 OK. At this point in time, just about any QB thread is ludicrous to me, but whatever. Just what would YOU do for a QB for 2006, JDG? Please don't say draft one. Please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oneonta Buffalo Fan Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 How about this? Before sending JP to the scrap heap? Let's get him an offensive line to protect him? It's not to late for the Bills to start. They stil have time to trade for and draft O-Linemen. Let's give JP more then 1-2 seconds to read a defense before it's decided that he can't. It's amazing how ghosts from the past get more of a benefit of the doubt then some of the sparse talent the team has. 636914[/snapback] Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDG Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Here's a list of QB's JDG would have cut if he was ever a GM based on one to two years performance: 1) Peyton Manning 2) Brett Favre 3) Carson Palmer 4) Drew Brees 5) Eli Manning FACE FACTS! Very few QB's look good after 7 starts. Most are in fact, TERRIBLE. 636878[/snapback] Peyton Manning as a rookie: 56.7% completion, 3739 yards, 26 TD and 28 INT Brett Favre as a second-year player: 64% completion, 3227 yards in 13 Starts, 18 TD and 13 INT. Carson Palmer as a second-year player: 60.9% completion, 2897 yards in 13 Starts, 18 TD and 18 INT. Drew Brees as a second-year player: 60.8% completion, 3284 yards, 17 TD and 16 INT JP Losman as a second-year player: 49.6% completion, 1340 yards in 9 games, 8 TD and 8 INT So please, tell me the story again about how all second-year QB's are terrible???? JDG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 How about this? Before sending JP to the scrap heap? Let's get him an offensive line to protect him? It's not to late for the Bills to start. They stil have time to trade for and draft O-Linemen. Let's give JP more then 1-2 seconds to read a defense before it's decided that he can't. It's amazing how ghosts from the past get more of a benefit of the doubt then some of the sparse talent the team has. 636914[/snapback] And again, that same line looked good protecting Holcomb and Holcomb despite having basically the same number of starts as JP in his career looked decent behind the exact same line. So maybe it isn't the line that is the problem. Maybe I have called Mcnally out wrongly and the problem truely is Losman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 How many games and practices *can* you judge an NFL QB in? JDG 636797[/snapback] Most of the experts (coaches, guys who train these guys) say about 30 on average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikecole1 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 I don't want to go down the same road we went down with Rob Johnson. All the waiting with him set this franchise back literally a decade. I would, however, give Losman another year. Last year he had a broken leg; the guy was virtually a rookie this past year. Seven games isn't enough. I like bringing Nall in however, to throw open the competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Who are you going to trust, Tom Donahoe or Marv Levy? If Levy gives Losman a chance, then obviously he sees somethign he likes in him, but until then, Losman is just a guy Tom Donahoe drafted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Peyton Manning as a rookie: 56.7% completion, 3739 yards, 26 TD and 28 INT Brett Favre as a second-year player: 64% completion, 3227 yards in 13 Starts, 18 TD and 13 INT. Carson Palmer as a second-year player: 60.9% completion, 2897 yards in 13 Starts, 18 TD and 18 INT. Drew Brees as a second-year player: 60.8% completion, 3284 yards, 17 TD and 16 INT JP Losman as a second-year player: 49.6% completion, 1340 yards in 9 games, 8 TD and 8 INT So please, tell me the story again about how all second-year QB's are terrible???? JDG 636917[/snapback] I swear, do you wipe your a$$ and then post whatever shows up on the toilet paper? Because thats what your thoughts lead me to believe. Hmmm, you said that you wouldnt judge a QB by just starts, yet you declare JP a bust after 8. I see that he hit that magic "8 start plateau" where HOF QB's really turn it on. You say that aggregate stats cloud the picture, yet then provide the aggregate stats for the above QB's. You say that great QB's dont lay bombs like JP did against new england. Well, look at these abysmal games. 20-44 for 193, 0 TD and 2 INT. 14-29 for 164 1 TD, 2 INT. If JP had those games, you'd declare him a bust as you have. But if i tell you those were 2 games in peyton manning's rookie year (which they were) you would come up with some other excuse that contradicts what you have said in a previous post just so you could bash JP. You somehow decide that eli's 6 TD's and 9 int's are more TD's and less int's that Jp's 8 and 8. Math check. 8 TD's > 6 TD's and 8 INT's < 9 INT's All i see in your anti-JP crusade is you contradicting yourself a bunch of times, for the sole reason of bashing JP. Time for a check JDG. When you make VABills look like he makes sense (which you are) then you know you are in real trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Is Marv Awake? Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 And again, that same line looked good protecting Holcomb and Holcomb despite having basically the same number of starts as JP in his career looked decent behind the exact same line. So maybe it isn't the line that is the problem. Maybe I have called Mcnally out wrongly and the problem truely is Losman. 636918[/snapback] Looked good? Should I even bother with breaking out the numbers or should I be nice and give you a chance to edit your post. You let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Is Marv Awake? Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Who are you going to trust, Tom Donahoe or Marv Levy? If Levy gives Losman a chance, then obviously he sees somethign he likes in him, but until then, Losman is just a guy Tom Donahoe drafted. 636931[/snapback] Didn't the current GM re-hire (or retain) the same coach the TD did? Or did you forget that? Jouren was not the first choice of the current leadership. He is a last minute replacement. But why bring up facts of the past? Lets hammer TD for not being "fan Friendly". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 I'm not crusading for Joey. I think Joey sucks. my point was they gave up on him early, and while he played some last year, they obviously wish they would have cut bait earlier, because well it was obvious after 2 years, Joey, sucked. 636895[/snapback] Nah, you've crusaded for Aaron Brooks in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 I swear, do you wipe your a$$ and then post whatever shows up on the toilet paper?Because thats what your thoughts lead me to believe. Hmmm, you said that you wouldnt judge a QB by just starts, yet you declare JP a bust after 8. I see that he hit that magic "8 start plateau" where HOF QB's really turn it on. You say that aggregate stats cloud the picture, yet then provide the aggregate stats for the above QB's. You say that great QB's dont lay bombs like JP did against new england. Well, look at these abysmal games. 20-44 for 193, 0 TD and 2 INT. 14-29 for 164 1 TD, 2 INT. If JP had those games, you'd declare him a bust as you have. But if i tell you those were 2 games in peyton manning's rookie year (which they were) you would come up with some other excuse that contradicts what you have said in a previous post just so you could bash JP. You somehow decide that eli's 6 TD's and 9 int's are more TD's and less int's that Jp's 8 and 8. Math check. 8 TD's > 6 TD's and 8 INT's < 9 INT's All i see in your anti-JP crusade is you contradicting yourself a bunch of times, for the sole reason of bashing JP. Time for a check JDG. When you make VABills look like he makes sense (which you are) then you know you are in real trouble. 636933[/snapback] I love you, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Most of the experts (coaches, guys who train these guys) say about 30 on average. 636924[/snapback] We aren't interested in any experts that don't post on this here message board, pahhhhhhhhhhdnahhhhhhhhh! What the hell does Dick Vermiel know about quarterbacks, anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Who are you going to trust, Tom Donahoe or Marv Levy? If Levy gives Losman a chance, then obviously he sees somethign he likes in him, but until then, Losman is just a guy Tom Donahoe drafted. 636931[/snapback] You mean the same Marv that inherited Jim Kelly, destroyed Todd Collins, etc? Sorry, I'll believe Marv knows alot about young QBs when he actually selects and develops one. Revisionist history is fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan Trapped in Pats Land Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Destroyed Todd Collins??? Give it up man, he just sucks moose balls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts