Congratulations to the TARD for the CBA

[Pyrite Gal]

It will be quite amusing if we those who labled Upshaw a 'tard and a moron will be posters enough to eat crow now.

 

Perhaps they will try to pretend they were correct by hiding behind the figleaf that he did not get a deal that with a share of the revenues that started with a 6. He definitely was rejected in getting this lobbying offer and they beat him all the way down to 59.5%.

 

Based on the explanations folks seemed to give for these rants it was based on some posters simply not understanding the economics at play here. Granted some marginal and older players would have lost out if the team owners had called out the NFLPA and rejected their final offer.

 

However, though the player would have been bruised (or have members like the financail idiot Travis Henry killed), overall the key to understanding the players fiscal position is realizing that:

 

1. Under Upshaw's guidance the NFLPA had recovered from having their heads handed to them in the mid-80s by threatening to decertify itself. Either Upshaw deserves great credit for coming up with this approach or for being smart enough to understand it and sell it to his peers if some smart lawyers came up with the idea. Either way, a great job was done for Upshaw's constituency under his leadership.

 

2. The NFLPA played the timing of this renogiation beautifully.

 

A. By having the decision point occur in the off-season they diminished the opportunities for the team owners to lockout the players when they expected game checks.

 

B. By forcing revenue sharing into the debate over the CBA, the NFLPA divided the owners into the haves and the have mores. The effect of this was seen in the final days negotiations when the NFLPA had Paul Tag boo-boo delivering and speaking for the final offer. The final day saw negotiations between the owners leading to its accceptance while Upshaw hung out on the veranda.

 

C. The final season under the cap and then an uncapped season before any job action could even be taken by the team owners gave the players bags of time to prepare their members for a fight if necessary and use their substantial pay to build a warchest if necessary.

 

D. Under Upshaw's guidance the players had received more money than most of them ever imagined in their lives under labor peace. These men are both pliable athletes who have lived their lives being told what to do and also team players. This is a potent combo to build a union and if there was a job action with two years to prepate the NFLPA would have been a potent opponent.

 

3. What some folks did not seem to understand at all about the economic situation is what a weak position for a job action the team owners were in. In addition to being divided (never a good way to lead a group into a fight) some posters actually claimed that the owners would kill the NFLPA in a lockout if it ever came to that.

 

A. This ignores the concepts above about the current NFLPA situation that put the players in a far better position to fight a job action than their situation in the mid-80s.

 

B. This view totally ignored the fact that many of the owners had borrowed a ton of money (hundreds of millions of dollars in some cases) to build stadiums and their team infrastructures. Even the richest of owners does not have the cash lying around to finance a stadium (and if he does he is not investing his wealth properly). Those loans were made with the assumption of a certain cashflow over the life of the loan.

 

When an NFL player happened to not bring in the 300K+ a year from salary it would be a hardship his wife or relatives might whine about. However, if the team had a reduction in cashflow due to a lockout, the bank that held the loan would do more than whine, they might foreclose.

 

When it came down to a fight the team owners were in much worse shaoe economically than the players.

 

From the beginning of this dispute it was fairly economically obvious who was going to win this fight.

 

All that is left now is the union vote in Hawaii at their meeting in a couple of weeks. I assume they will take yes for an answer.

[Ramius]

Why congradulate him? Give a hand to Tags. Upshaw didnt do any fantastic negotiating, he did what he was paid to do, get the players the most $ possible. He kept bouncing his head off the wall, and it was up to Tags to convince the owners that the deal was what was best for the NFL.

 

Upshaw actually impressed me. He didnt gloat or anything, just said he's glad the deal is done with. That was the biggest surpirse to me. I half expected him (and still do) to throw it in the owners face.

 

As for him being a tard, he is, because he still thinks that his 59.5% of the new revenue plan is somehow less than 64% of the old revenue plan. Thats why i called him a tard in the first place. Never said it was a bad way to negotiate, just he was being a moron for trying to say $577 million more dollars is somehow less that what the players were getting.

 

I'll leave you with 2 thoughts from gene...

 

"the start of Free agency WILL NOT be delayed"

 

"The NFLPA WILL NOT accept a proposal of less than 60%"

[JStranger76]

Upshaw still is a piece of you know what cause Matt Birk said so!!!!!!!1

[Pyrite Gal]

Why congradulate him? Give a hand to Tags. Upshaw didnt do any fantastic negotiating, he did what he was paid to do, get the players the most $ possible. He kept bouncing his head off the wall, and it was up to Tags to convince the owners that the deal was what was best for the NFL.

 

Upshaw actually impressed me. He didnt gloat or anything, just said he's glad the deal is done with. That was the biggest surpirse to me. I half expected him (and still do) to throw it in the owners face.

 

As for him being a tard, he is, because he still thinks that his 59.5% of the new revenue plan is somehow less than 64% of the old revenue plan. Thats why i called him a tard in the first place. Never said it was a bad way to negotiate, just he was being a moron for trying to say $577 million more dollars is somehow less that what the players were getting.

 

I'll leave you with 2 thoughts from gene...

 

"the start of Free agency WILL NOT be delayed"

 

"The NFLPA WILL NOT accept a proposal of less than 60%"

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Look, I feel that my understanding of the economics is actually pretty limited because:

 

1. I (like you and most everyone else) do not have first hand info on this often changing situation. We outsiders are all dependent on the second hand (at best) translations of the press, which are far from always accurate. Yet, this lack of info did stop some folks from claiming that Upshaw was a tard or a moron who could not handle a calculator. Its one thing to call him a tard because one disagrees with his ideology, but it strikes me as wholly illegitimate to make this claim based on the incomplete and often false information we outsiders have.

 

It would strike me as more than reasonable to disagree violently with his expressed philosophy, but makes no sense to label him a moron for not understanding something we cannot be sure is even being reported accurately.

 

Do you disagree with this distinction?

 

2. Even with my limited understanding of the economics I could pretty easily see how Upshaw's claims (and Henderson of the NFL's fairly opposite claims) were both within reasons as ways to look at the same facts. In fact, I felt (and in the end Tags and the NFL which pushed the team owners to take the final offer from the NFLPA and the NFL owners who accepted the deal agreed that the "TARD's" proposal was one they could live with) that Upshaw's presentation was a more legitimate (though still not fully accurate since he was putting forward an advocate's biased perspective) than the NFL's.

 

This stuff is interesting because it is pretty complicated an high level economics so I guess I am not surprised that some folks don't seem to get it at all because I know I only have a partial understanding of it. However, even with my limited understanding I could see where this was headed which was well toward Upshaw's views.

 

It just amazes me that some folks would make some fairly harsh judgments about someone who demonstrably by their explanations of the situation and the results finally agreed tounderstands this a lot better than they do,

[Buftex]

I heard Joe DeLeimiellure and Fred Smerlas on the Bob Matthews show a little earlier tonight. Apparently, Joe D and and most retired NFL players have a major problem with Upshaw. It may be sour grapes, but Joe D was involved in some major report, published recently in South Carolina about how badly the NFLPA has screwed its' members. (Sorry I tuned in during the middle of the conversation, I am not sure where to find the study) The study surveyed around 300 former players, including John Elway, Joe Montana, Howie Long and other huge names, and they were nearly unanimous (sp?) in their negative feelings toward the NFLPA, and Upshaw in particular.

 

As Joe D said, after 13 years in the NFL, he receives a $942 monthly pension. MLB baseball players, who played at the same time as Joe D, receive an average of $6000 a month. Quite a disparity there! Gene Upshaw makes 6 million dollars a year as NFLPA president. He is virtually unchallanged for the job. Joe D pointed out that Upshaw touts the fact that he got the old timers a 20% increase in their pensions, leaving out the fact that 20% of nothing is next to nothing.

 

I almost never agree with Fred Smerlas, but he was absolutely correct in pointing out that with all of the money that these negotiations involve, the NFLPA has not done enough to remind them that they will also be retired NFL players someday. The big money gained will not really affect a large percentage of the players who fill out the rosters in the NFL.

 

There was also a recollection from Howie Long, about how is induction into the NFL HOF was almost as sobering as it was happy. It seems that neither the NFL, or the NFLPA pays the way of the inductees to their own ceremony, unless it is an anniversary of some kind. Long recalled that he was impressd (and not in a good sense) by how poorly so many of the HOF were living.

 

Upshaw may have done a good job with this negotiation, holding out for more money for his people, but it sounds like a lot of NFLPA members question where his priorities lie. I won't pretend to understand all of the specifics of the labor pact, but I will be curious to see how this works out.

[Pyrite Gal]

The NFLPA is a democracy and if he is not serving a majority of his constituencies interests then they can and should vote him out.

 

(By the way, $600,000 a month cannot be right. Thus far more than the pay of playing major leaguers).

[Guest BackInDaDay]

First things first...

 

Congratulations to Upshaw and Vincent for representing their membership so well.

 

Congratulations to Tagliabue who really came up big in a very tough spot. I killed him over not having his owners prepared for this, but I guess he knew it would take locking these guys in a hotel another couple days.

 

Congratulations to the Jets, Patriots, Steelers, Ravens, Cowboys and Falcons owners who, according to Tagliabue, blended two seperate proposals into one cohesive agreement.

 

Congratulations to the high-revenue owners who are willing to take on more financial burden under the agreement to allow for an expanded revenue sharing plan.

 

Now...

 

If Tags and Upshaw can make peace, isn't time for Pyrite Gal and Ramius to kiss and make-up?

 

PS. I didn't forget Ralph's role in this. He's our Ralphie. WTF can we do?

[RJsackedagain]

It will be quite amusing if we those who labled Upshaw a 'tard and a moron will be posters enough to eat crow now.

 

Is this supposed to be in english???? I think you might be the tard here!

[Gavin in Va Beach]

When you're done fellating Upshaw, does he return the favor or does he just spooge on your face and walk away?

[KOKBILLS]

Yep...There has always been a ton of "Crow Eating" on TSW...So why stop now...

[Pyrite Gal]

When you're done fellating Upshaw, does he return the favor or does he just spooge on your face and walk away?

621904[/snapback]

 

Naw he makes too much money to worry about me or you.

[Beerball]

Too wordy for me to understand in 45 minutes, sorry.

 

I do have one observation though. Now that you're a chick your posts have a much meaner and more vindictive tone.

[Buftex]

The NFLPA is a democracy and if he is not serving a majority of his constituencies interests then they can and should vote him out.

 

(By the way, $600,000 a month cannot be right. Thus far more than the pay of playing major leaguers).

621892[/snapback]

 

 

Sorry, was typing too fast, and meant to type $6000.

 

Now, Joe D and Fred Smerlas may just be bitter, and eating a bowl of sour grapes, but Joe D, in particular, sounded like he was very actively up on these issues. He, and some other players have been fighting for improved benefits. According to Joe D, Upshaw is virtually unchallanged in his position. His point was that Upshaw wows the active players with getting them more money, as a collective, but most don't see any of it.

[Nanker]

Too wordy for me to understand in 45 minutes, sorry.

 

I do have one observation though.  Now that you're a chick your posts have a much meaner and more vindictive tone.

621912[/snapback]

 

It's always "that" time of the month now on TSW.

[Pyrite Gal]

Sorry, was typing too fast, and meant to type $6000. 

 

Now, Joe D and Fred Smerlas may just be bitter, and eating a bowl of sour grapes, but Joe D, in particular, sounded like he was very actively up on these issues.  He, and some other players have been fighting for improved benefits.  According to Joe D, Upshaw is virtually unchallanged in his position.  His point was that Upshaw wows the active players with getting them more money, as a collective, but most don't see any of it.

621951[/snapback]

 

It MAY not be far that the players today are getting a ton of $ while the guys who did the same thing in yesteryear get far less than the newbies or less than the pensions in other sports.

 

However, life is not fair. That is just the fact.

 

However, there are other reasons besides fairness that the current players should want part of the wealth they are accumulating to go toward pensions.

 

1. Paying pensions to the oldsters now sets a precedent and set up a system which current players will be able to take advantage of when they are older.

 

2. Paying pensions builds the NFLPA into an institution and puts current players into a system where they are expected to sacrifice for the collective rather than simply make all they can right now for themselves. The promise that you are part of a group that takes care of its own in older age it is to be hoped makes current players more willing to take risks like the one the NFLPA just took in CBA negotiation even though if they had failed marginal current players would have been most at risk.

 

I think the nFLPA knows this an in terms of building an effective fighting force that can remained unified when negotiating with team owners is key.

 

Lack of unity was why the NFLPA got creamed in the mid-80s as team owners were able to use replacement players to create dissent and dispute within the NFLPA which force them back to work. Lack of unity was a killer for the team owners this time as divisions between the higher revenue and lower revenue clubs made it impossible for them to withstand the demands of the NFLPA.

 

Still Joe D and Fred Smerlas' claims are reduced to little more than whining because even 900+ a month for sitting at home doing nothing is a very sweet deal. If the NFLPA existed when they were players and they did not set up the pension system then with defined % benefits for retirees which escalated along with increased income today then they screwed up and the small payments are their fault.

 

If the NFLPA and the pension system did not exist when they were players, then they really have no reasoable expectation or obligation to them that they are going to be sent a check each month for doing nothing. Its good that today's players are doing anything for the oldsters since they have no obligation,

 

If Smerlas or Joe D feels it is too little money or an insulting check then they should send it back rather than whining about this charitable act.

[Buftex]

If Smerlas or Joe D feels it is too little money or an insulting check then they should send it back rather than whining about this charitable act.

622287[/snapback]

 

 

Well, maybe you are right about that. I just think that they have some legit gripes. You can't always fall back on the tired "I wouldn't be complaining if I made that kind of money" thing...28-32 men became very wealthy on the contributions of guys like Joe D (and countless others). They are now multi-multi millionaires. Gene Upshaw was one of them at one time. He is now a multi-millionaire himself, as a partner of the NFL commissioner.

 

I just find it odd that a leauge that generates 8-10 billion dollars a year does not take care of its' alumni better. Given their short life expectancy (that is not a coincidence), you would think that greed wouldn't always override decency. I guess that is too much to expect though.

[Pyrite Gal]

Well, maybe you are right about that.  I just think that they have some legit gripes.  You can't always fall back on the tired "I wouldn't be complaining if I made that kind of money" thing...28-32 men became very wealthy on the contributions of guys like Joe D (and countless others).  They are now multi-multi millionaires.  Gene Upshaw was one of them at one time.  He is now a multi-millionaire himself, as a partner of the NFL commissioner. 

 

I just find it odd that a leauge that generates 8-10 billion dollars a year does not take care of its' alumni better.  Given their short life expectancy (that is not a coincidence), you would think that greed wouldn't always override decency. I guess that is too much to expect though.

622342[/snapback]

 

Its tough though because actually the good ol American way is every person for themselves, cavest emptor and let the buyer beware. Pensions are part of our system de facto, but a different kind of pension than the European collective model but one which is an American free-market negotiation model.

 

Pensions are part of our system, but generally only based on what the employer and employee negotiate.

 

If Joe D and Smerla were members of the NFLPA at the time then there is no obligation to them beyond what they negotiated in exchange for their play at the time. If there was no NFLPA at the time, then there is no obligation under out system, though the current NFLPA can profit from taking care of these old men in building a more effective collective.

 

Either way, whikle Joe D and Smerlas have every right as Americans to B word about it, they have no right either under a social contract like the CBA or a natural right to get the result they are bitching and moaning about.