Left Overture Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 you have all the right players. The 4-6 (and all it's different looks) works well if you have two big hogs in the middle of the line that can occupy those middle gaps, and get penetration. Then your corners also need to be lock-down calibre because they are going to get assigned a lot of one on one coverage. Our corners have not locked down anyone when they have needed to (big third down passing play after passing play appears to be a given with this unit). And safety help is nonexistant because they have to be up on the line trying to help stop the run - which they can't do because Grey has them constantly blitzing up field which leaves them out of position to make the plays they need to make against the run. Losing Pat, combined with playing some better teams, has really brought out the warts on this pig. What I wouldn't give to have Wade or Dick Lebeau back coaching this D. There is talent here, but they are constantly caught out of position, terribly coached, and we wont even get into adjustments - this group folds like a house of cards in the second half of every game. Aaron Schobel said something a couple of weeks ago that I think shows signs that the players do not really believe in Jerry's defensive scheme. He said that the defense needs to be made simpler. Just straight up playing their gaps without so many fancy blitzes and schemes (I'm paraphrasing of course). I hate to say it, but either they have to find another Pat Williams to take up two gaps in the middle, or they need to find another defensive coach who can work with the guys we have. I watched the replays. I watched our middle linebacker blitz up the field, only to take himself out of the play, and leave a hole for Jordan to run 14 yards through. Enough said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in San Diego Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 Jerry Gray has no creativity to change with the personel he has. He only knows blitz and if it dont work ? Oh well ! Jerry, MM , TC and TD can all kiss my ass and need to be fired now ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Left Overture Posted October 24, 2005 Author Share Posted October 24, 2005 Jerry Gray has no creativity to change with the personel he has. He only knows blitz and if it dont work ? Oh well ! Jerry, MM , TC and TD can all kiss my ass and need to be fired now ! 484307[/snapback] I remember when Wade and Ted got into a jam with their 3-4 defense. We had lost two of our starting linebackers. What did they do? They came out with a 4-3 defense that next week and won the game. Later when our linebackers got healthy again, that 4-3 defense would still creep into the play calling from time to time when the personnel fit the situation on the field better. Now that was some great coaching - period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 you have all the right players. The 4-6 (and all it's different looks) works well if you have two big hogs in the middle of the line that can occupy those middle gaps, and get penetration. Then your corners also need to be lock-down calibre because they are going to get assigned a lot of one on one coverage. Our corners have not locked down anyone when they have needed to (big third down passing play after passing play appears to be a given with this unit). And safety help is nonexistant because they have to be up on the line trying to help stop the run - which they can't do because Grey has them constantly blitzing up field which leaves them out of position to make the plays they need to make against the run. Losing Pat, combined with playing some better teams, has really brought out the warts on this pig. What I wouldn't give to have Wade or Dick Lebeau back coaching this D. There is talent here, but they are constantly caught out of position, terribly coached, and we wont even get into adjustments - this group folds like a house of cards in the second half of every game. Aaron Schobel said something a couple of weeks ago that I think shows signs that the players do not really believe in Jerry's defensive scheme. He said that the defense needs to be made simpler. Just straight up playing their gaps without so many fancy blitzes and schemes (I'm paraphrasing of course). I hate to say it, but either they have to find another Pat Williams to take up two gaps in the middle, or they need to find another defensive coach who can work with the guys we have. I watched the replays. I watched our middle linebacker blitz up the field, only to take himself out of the play, and leave a hole for Jordan to run 14 yards through. Enough said. 484112[/snapback] Excellent post...only one small thing. I think that this defense is not Gregg Williams defense, but Dick Lebeau's. The only got good the year that Lebeau joined the staff as an "defensive assistant". I think Bills brass, and fans for the most part, totally underestimated what a player of Pat Williams stature baught to the Bills defense the last two years. It is so painfully obvious with evey 100 yard rushing game this defense surrenders, they are very weak in the middle of the line. Sam Adams is great, but he is not the same player with no inside prescence next to him. While it may have been wise, financially not to overpay an aging Pat Williams to stay in Buffalo, it was a monumental mistake, IMO, not to try to replace him with an experienced free agent. I wonder how much better this defense would look with Adams and Corey Simon plugging up the middle. As it is now, Adams still makes some big plays, but if he makes one of his patented jail breaks into the offensive backfield, and doesn't make a tackle or a sack, there is nobody there to back him up....Edwards never really did anything in 4 years, beyond making the roster, and Anderson is just too inexperienced. Even last season, when Lebeau went to the Steelers, Bills defensive players (Spikes, Clements, Fletcher) always seemed to go out of their way to praise what Lebeau did for them. They rarely even referred to Jerry Gray. I never thought much of Gray before Lebeau got there, and I am starting to think even less. TD bent over backwards to get Lebeau to come to Buffalo, even though he really didn't need him. I will always wonder why TD let Lebeau go, in favor of Gray...he just seems to have no ability to make adjustments on the fly. That, to me, is one of the greatest qualities of a coordinater. I am sure it varies from team to team, but I am thinking that Gray deserves as much blame for this loss as MM does. It is one thing to get your ass kicked in the first half, but to come out in the second half, with no answer, and continue with the same obvious blitz schemes is pretty unforgiveable. The whole second half, Milloy seemed to be blitzing, while the secondary was continually being gashed for huge runs and first down passes. Maybe it wouldn't have been a bad idea to keep the Lawer in the backfield. They needed all the help they could get. This was as pathetic a defensive performance as we have had in the last five years, made all the worse by all of the alledged talent the Bills are supposed to have. Nate Clements can't say, with a straight face, that he is the best corner in the leauge, after todays' performance. He couldn't cover a half-powered Randy Moss on short plays, and helped Doug Gabriel look like the second coming of Terrell Owens. He wasn't even always beaten. He just seems to be developing an aversion to tackling. To be fair, it wasn't just him. God love London Fletcher and Troy Vincent. They play their hearts out, but maybe time is catching up to them. London just could not wrap up defenders, and Vincent (who made a couple of nice plays), more often than not, seems one step behind the play. It is unfortunate that we don't have a better option than him at the free safety spot. I still think Vincent can play, but he just seems to be having some trouble finding his way in his new position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillnutinHouston Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 I will always wonder why TD let Lebeau go, in favor of Gray...484326[/snapback] You can stop wondering about this. TD did not "let" LeBeau go, he tried hard to keep him from going to Pittsburgh but LeBeau chose the Steelers instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 You can stop wondering about this. TD did not "let" LeBeau go, he tried hard to keep him from going to Pittsburgh but LeBeau chose the Steelers instead. 484334[/snapback] But TD had the power to offer LeBeau the DC job, which he wanted, instead of extending Gray...LeBeau, at the time, even said something to the effect that while he appreciated his job in Buffalo, it was too "undefined" for him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 But TD had the power to offer LeBeau the DC job, which he wanted, instead of extending Gray...LeBeau, at the time, even said something to the effect that while he appreciated his job in Buffalo, it was too "undefined" for him... 484876[/snapback] He DID offer LeBeau the job. As for the earlier comments from others, that was Greg Williams Tennessee defense with a little tweak here and there from DL, not vice-versa... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 He DID offer LeBeau the job. As for the earlier comments from others, that was Greg Williams Tennessee defense with a little tweak here and there from DL, not vice-versa... 484893[/snapback] I don't recall TD ever offering LeBeau the DC job... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 I think the Losing Williams has hurt, but coupling that with Milloy, Vincent, and Adams getting a year older is even a bigger problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Left Overture Posted October 24, 2005 Author Share Posted October 24, 2005 He DID offer LeBeau the job. As for the earlier comments from others, that was Greg Williams Tennessee defense with a little tweak here and there from DL, not vice-versa... 484893[/snapback] Correct. We were running the ol Buddy Ryan/Jeff Fisher/Greg Williams/Jerry Grey defense, and Lebeau added the zone packages to the blitz schemes that dropped our defensive linemen into passing zones while blitzing corners and safeties off of the edges. Therefore it wasn't Lebeau's scheme, but rather the 4-6 scheme that was tweaked. Even so it is more than apparent that Jerry is out of his depth trying to be effective with our current personnel. He is not putting them into a position to succeed, he appears at a loss when it comes to designing an effective game plan against a quality team, and he has no plan B or second half adjustments to speak of. All that talk about HC material, when he has not even proven to be effective DC material when it counts the most - that is, when you don't have the perfect situation, with the perfect players to fit your scheme, yet you find the way to get the most out of the players you have to give your team a chance to win. He has failed miserably as a coach in my opinion, because of this lack of creative defensive problem solving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 I hate to say it, but either they have to find another Pat Williams to take up two gaps in the middle, or they need to find another defensive coach who can work with the guys we have. 484112[/snapback] They need to do both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 I don't recall TD ever offering LeBeau the DC job... 484904[/snapback] After LeBeau lost his head coaching job, he was brought to Buffalo for a year as an assistant/mentor for Jerry Gray. Gregg Williams could have, but did not, offer LeBeau the defensive coordinator position. The next year, LeBeau was Mularkey's first choice for defensive coordinator; but LeBeau chose to be Pittsburgh's defensive coordinator instead. LeBeau has a home and family in Pittsburgh, and a strong working relationship with Bill Cowher. Mularkey went with his second choice for defensive coordinator in Jerry Gray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 Correct. We were running the ol Buddy Ryan/Jeff Fisher/Greg Williams/Jerry Grey defense, and Lebeau added the zone packages to the blitz schemes that dropped our defensive linemen into passing zones while blitzing corners and safeties off of the edges. Therefore it wasn't Lebeau's scheme, but rather the 4-6 scheme that was tweaked. 484940[/snapback] Well, either way, it was LeBeau's blitz schemes and zone packages that helped the D turn the corner and it gave it the appearence of being a great defense, instead of mediocre, at best... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB2004 Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 you have all the right players. The 4-6 (and all it's different looks) works well if you have two big hogs in the middle of the line that can occupy those middle gaps, and get penetration. Then your corners also need to be lock-down calibre because they are going to get assigned a lot of one on one coverage. Our corners have not locked down anyone when they have needed to (big third down passing play after passing play appears to be a given with this unit). And safety help is nonexistant because they have to be up on the line trying to help stop the run - which they can't do because Grey has them constantly blitzing up field which leaves them out of position to make the plays they need to make against the run. Losing Pat, combined with playing some better teams, has really brought out the warts on this pig. What I wouldn't give to have Wade or Dick Lebeau back coaching this D. There is talent here, but they are constantly caught out of position, terribly coached, and we wont even get into adjustments - this group folds like a house of cards in the second half of every game. Aaron Schobel said something a couple of weeks ago that I think shows signs that the players do not really believe in Jerry's defensive scheme. He said that the defense needs to be made simpler. Just straight up playing their gaps without so many fancy blitzes and schemes (I'm paraphrasing of course). I hate to say it, but either they have to find another Pat Williams to take up two gaps in the middle, or they need to find another defensive coach who can work with the guys we have. I watched the replays. I watched our middle linebacker blitz up the field, only to take himself out of the play, and leave a hole for Jordan to run 14 yards through. Enough said. 484112[/snapback] That's a good post. Its obvious that this defensive scheme isn't working. I wonder if there's going to be any adjustments in our overall scheme. This run defense thing is something that we need to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1959BillsFan Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 I would love to know what Tom Krummrie has to say. The guy does not remind me of the PC type "coaches" TD likes to hire. I think he just says it as it is. That would be a great interview if he would open up, but I don't think Mularkey lets any of his people talk to the press or fans. We occationally hear from Wyche, but that is out of shear respect for the man. We hear from McNally, no, no, no we don't. We hear from his players about his techniques. As far as this D, your analysis is pretty good, but a key thing about the 4-6 is the size and strength versus athleticism of the front line. I read somewhere that the linemen should all be big guys. You don't want the smallish DEs the Bills have because they cannot sustain the blocks from the OTs and plug the gaps that are created by the OTs. So, essentially, you want big DEs and even bigger CTs to plug. The speed and athleticism comes from the LBs. The way these guys are blitzing, they have CBs and Safeties doing the pass rushing, but who is covering the pass options, the WRs. That leaves DEs and a Middle LB to cover these speedy, shifty WRs. THAT IS A MISMATCH that opposing OC have figured out. When Schobel suggests to go back to a simplified defensive scheme, he is only suggesting to let the athletes play the positions their physical stature require from them. Let the safety cover a WR, let the CBs cover the WRs; let the DEs rush. Mlarkey emphasized the Bills lost the Line of Scrimmage battle. Well when you have a 340 lb OT going against a 200lb CB, who do you thing will win at the LOS??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Left Overture Posted October 25, 2005 Author Share Posted October 25, 2005 Well, either way, it was LeBeau's blitz schemes and zone packages that helped the D turn the corner and it gave it the appearence of being a great defense, instead of mediocre, at best... 485154[/snapback] Agreed. I do believe that it was Lebeau that finally got Greg's Tennessee defense off the ground when it became obvious that he and Gray were not able to duplicate what the Titans were able to do with their specific personnel. That being said, the 4-6 defense does use a number of blitzes. Blitzes were not just part of Lebeau's package. The zone blitz Lebeau designed in Pittsburg when he did not have the D line studs that could get to the passer, but they were quick and decent in coverage, so he would drop them back into the quick throwing lanes and pressure the QB from the edges with linebackers and safety blitzes. The point of pressuring a QB is mute any way if your team cannot stop the run. What QB feels pressured when he can hand off and watch his running back rip off first down after first down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Left Overture Posted October 25, 2005 Author Share Posted October 25, 2005 I would love to know what Tom Krummrie has to say. The guy does not remind me of the PC type "coaches" TD likes to hire. I think he just says it as it is. That would be a great interview if he would open up, but I don't think Mularkey lets any of his people talk to the press or fans. We occationally hear from Wyche, but that is out of shear respect for the man. We hear from McNally, no, no, no we don't. We hear from his players about his techniques. As far as this D, your analysis is pretty good, but a key thing about the 4-6 is the size and strength versus athleticism of the front line. I read somewhere that the linemen should all be big guys. You don't want the smallish DEs the Bills have because they cannot sustain the blocks from the OTs and plug the gaps that are created by the OTs. So, essentially, you want big DEs and even bigger CTs to plug. The speed and athleticism comes from the LBs. The way these guys are blitzing, they have CBs and Safeties doing the pass rushing, but who is covering the pass options, the WRs. That leaves DEs and a Middle LB to cover these speedy, shifty WRs. THAT IS A MISMATCH that opposing OC have figured out. When Schobel suggests to go back to a simplified defensive scheme, he is only suggesting to let the athletes play the positions their physical stature require from them. Let the safety cover a WR, let the CBs cover the WRs; let the DEs rush. Mlarkey emphasized the Bills lost the Line of Scrimmage battle. Well when you have a 340 lb OT going against a 200lb CB, who do you thing will win at the LOS??? 485475[/snapback] Mularky and Gray keep talking about the blitz creating pressure on opposing QBs, but as I mentioned in another thread, what QB feels pressure when he knows that the running game can bail him out whenever he calls on it? We need to chuck the D#$N blitzes, and just go back to the good ol' trench warfare of stopping the run. This team needs to fix the run defense pronto, or forget about being anything other than a 500 team or worse this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sound_n_Fury Posted October 25, 2005 Share Posted October 25, 2005 I don't recall TD ever offering LeBeau the DC job... 484904[/snapback] http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04016/262080.stm "It appears Cowher has won the tug of war with Buffalo to hire Dick LeBeau as his defensive coordinator as soon as today. LeBeau, who was defensive coordinator of the Steelers in the 1990s when he was an assistant coach under Cowher for five years, was the subject of intense salesmanship by the Steelers and new Bills coach Mike Mularkey, Cowher's former offensive coordinator." I believe Lebeau chose the Steelers because it would allow him to be closer to some family members who live in PGH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nodnarb Posted October 25, 2005 Share Posted October 25, 2005 we hardly ever run the 46. I think it has more to do with personnel assessment failures and bad defensive playcalling. We blitz when we shouldn't and don't when we should. I think the Bills try to play the "They must be thinking X here cuz that's what most smart defenses would do, but we're going to do Y and surprise them" game. It's a losing formula. Jerry Gray is watching his head coach dreams slip away. This is some baaaaad stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
booya2 Posted October 25, 2005 Share Posted October 25, 2005 It's sad, but we all bitched about how Wade wouldn't wear a headset and what a waste of talent it was under him, but looking at what we have now and what the results have been, what we wouldn't give to have him back. With guys like Doug Flutie and Antowain Smith, and possibly the worst special teams the game has ever seen we still were winning 10-11 games a year, and save for that fateful play in Tennessee who knows... And going back a few years yet... look at the blue print Polian has laid out in Indy. That team is starting to look like a carbon copy of he had built here in the early 90's. I loved the Donahoe signing and I think he's made a lot of great moves, brought in good to great players at many positions, has some very good coaches at certain positions, but all in all it's just not adding up. Throwing out the talent depleted, cap purging year of '01, this has been a .500 team that just can't make the playoffs. I'm not a TD hater, and still think he's a good football mind, but at some point, the results have to speak for themsevles... it's just not working. Personally, I go back to the offseason following the '02 season, and I think that was the genesis of many mistakes. We had an offense that showed it could be explosive, but needed some tweaking... it didn't need to be completely blown up. Taking away Price, Centers, and Riemersma took 2000 yards and 9 TD's worth of offense out of the picture and brought about a complete shift in philosophy. Expecting Bledsoe to play a dink and dunk ball control type of offense was jamming a square peg into a round hole. Love Drew or hate him... we knew what we had, and that's just never suited his style. So we junk that, do a complete 180 and build what was becoming one of the dominant defenses of all time and then let Pat Williams walk, which even though it's only 1 player, was a neccessary cog to the workings of our scheme. Now we can't stop the run to save our lives and don't have that 2nd dominant DT in there to eat up blockers so it renders our LB's less effective and the trickle down effect has made everything worse. So we had the makings of a dominant offense... scrapped that, built a dominant defense, junked that idea... and now have an average offense with Holcomb at the helm, and are back to a defense that resembles '01. I just don't know what the vision is for this team anymore. I think unless something changes we have an 8-8 or 9-7 type team again, and that's not going to make it to the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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