AKC Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 That's true, but no one said that Brady's talents are "portable to most NFL offenses historically." Or at least not that I've seen... 479374[/snapback] I don't know how else you can make a "Best Player" argument without considering their ability in other settings. Can oyou argue Barry Sanders as the best RB without considering how his style might have affected a good football team? "Best Player" arguments cross all eras and teams and styles. It's only fair to consider how someone's strengths and weaknesses would have worked in other settings AFAIC, otherwise there's no basis for making the statement of "Best Of" to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 See, that's just it. We can argue about if for the next 50 years, but we'll never know how Elway would have done in New England's system. All we can do is look at their performance in the systems in which they played. He doesn't "win" all of his team's games anymore than he loses them - it's a team game afterall. 479397[/snapback] Imagine that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taterhill Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 this thread has bang my head against the wall potential Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Donahoe Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 What's your obsession with Bledsoe? Bledsoe is the only other starting QB that Vinatieri has regularly played with. I thought even you could figure that out. Now quit dodging and answer the question. If Vinatieri's making Brady good and not the other way around, why wasn't Vinatieri booting Super Bowl winning kicks when Bledsoe was the QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 this thread has bang my head against the wall potential 479408[/snapback] No threat of hurting anything there! Unless the wall is important to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Just take Elway for example. He opened up with some struggles due to his reliance on his feet (sound familiar?) but once he settled down into the pocket he became a complete QB who won it all in a big-ball play-action offense that Brady simply couldn't have survived in. On the other hand, had you given Elway the D in NE, the kicker and even used the hinky dink offense, Elway would have turned in 3 or 4 TD Super Bowl wins, probably 4 times. Unitas the same, Manning has the full toolbox, Kelly and Favre possibilities although they are/were both on the wrong side of the risk taking equation. So I'd say at least 3 of those you mention would have had BETTER results with the NE team than Mudslide has. 479380[/snapback] i'm not going to argue that elways was a bad player, but up until shanahan arrived, he was probably the most overrated qb ever. i'm basing this upon my own eyes as well as these stats, by the way. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/ElwaJo00.htm as for those "weak" denver defenses, you can do better than this, AKC. the years the broncos made the super bowl under reeves they were ranked 1, 7, and 15. the year they almost made it (91, when they barely lost to buffalo in the championship game), they were 3 overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 It's called RAC. It's an element of West Coast passing games that holds consistently true. That's why West Coast teams like the Seahawks have virtually the same YPA reception as the Pats. 479394[/snapback] You honestly believe that defenses look at film of Brady, see that he doesn't throw the ball more than 5 yards and still somehow can't stop a Patriots offense that only uses a very small percentage of the field? Go watch some Pats games (and don't say you have, it's obvious you haven't). Brady throws lots of intermediant stuff, lots of short stuff and some long stuff. In other words, he uses the entire field, which is why he is so effective. I swear there are people that only saw Brady play his first year as a starter (when he did only dink and dunk the ball) and think he's the same QB now as he was then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 why wasn't Vinatieri booting Super Bowl winning kicks when Bledsoe was the QB? 479411[/snapback] I realize you don't really understand the game very well, but the answer is that the defenses fielded in NE were not nearly as good. Here's your formula- Good D=Good Team/ Bad D=Bad Team. The QB doesn't have an equal effect. Oh yeah, the Pat's D- it's becoming the latter. Enjoy the tumble! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 I realize you don't really understand the game very well, but the answer is that the defenses fielded in NE were not nearly as good. Here's your formula- Good D=Good Team/ Bad D=Bad Team. The QB doesn't have an equal effect. Oh yeah, the Pat's D- it's becoming the latter. Enjoy the tumble! 479418[/snapback] to be fair, bledsoe did play poorly in the 96 playoffs, both in the championship game against the jags and against the pack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 i'm not going to argue that elways was a bad player, but up until shanahan arrived, he was probably the most overrated qb ever. i'm basing this upon my own eyes as well as these stats, by the way. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/ElwaJo00.htm as for those "weak" denver defenses, you can do better than this, AKC. the years the broncos made the super bowl under reeves they were ranked 1, 7, and 15. the year they almost made it (91, when they barely lost to buffalo in the championship game), they were 3 overall. 479413[/snapback] Stats for QBs have improved dramatically as the reliance on the short game has become necessary due to improved athleticism across trhe LOS. And it's tiem the league recognized the farce of the "Passer rating" system that shows guys like Joe Namath down among the Brian Sipes of the league. I didn't actually address the issue of Denver Ds directly but needless to say if you look at their competition in that time there were more balanced teams at the top, and hence their competition were better overall teams. Today we see less balanced teams competing in the playoffs for the most part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 to be fair, bledsoe did play poorly in the 96 playoffs, both in the championship game against the jags and against the pack. 479424[/snapback] Bledsoe's hardly my measure, but I do understand why Patsy fans want to measure Brady against him- it's one case where they can definitely put Little Lord Fauntleroy in the lead. Against Elway I don't see any argument, JE was a QB who transcended systems with a great touch in the short game, great field vision, a great deep arm and a dangerous ability as a runner. Elway was destined to be a champ in any system; if Brady were playing in Arizona right now I doubt he'd even be their #2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokinandjokin Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Make this horrible, worthless thread stop. Can we all agree that Brady sucks just enough to own 3 Super Bowl titles? And AKC, you better watch out for your excuse that Brady rides a good defense...cause theirs isnt too good this year. There's a lot of teams who would be 1-5 after that 6 game stretch. That debate about who is better, Brady or Vinatieri, made this thread extra retarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 I'm not so sure about that. We might not all jump up to defend Brady, but it is the usual suspects falling over themselves to blast him. 479324[/snapback] Well said. This thread should have closed after you posted this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Certainly. On the same token, where would AVin be if Drew Bledsoe were his QB? Oh yeah, we saw that scenario play out over the course of 7 years. Most of the time, the Patriots were in situations were all they needed was a field goal. Thus, going for a TD was out of the question (particularly in the Super Bowl victories against Carolina and St. Louis). So I would necessarily characterize it as an inability to finish drives. The objective was set at the beginning to get into field goal range, and that objective was accomplished. I appreciate you acknowledging who the BEST player is on the Pats. I'd ask you to consider where they would have been over this span with Jake Arians kicking field goals for them. I can tell you this, no one would be talking about the QB who couldn't get them to the end zone! 479263[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Brady throws lots of intermediant stuff, lots of short stuff and some long stuff. In other words, he uses the entire field, which is why he is so effective. 479417[/snapback] The stats say something else- on all of his throws over 20 yards this year he's 6-23 for about a 45 passer rating, right about where his career numbers run and also, at that range (over 20) the worst or one of the worst in the league. He gets an occassional ball over the top because no one puts much emaphasis on coverage over 20 yards deep on a guy who throws so poorly over 20 yards. Does the NE scheme reward the behind the LOS passes that Brady has built a career on? Oh yes- over the recent past their defense has given them lots of extra ops and the little ball O has been productive. If their D continues though to give up the kind of yardage it has this season it won't much matter how many behind the line of scrimmage passes Brady completes and how many yards they run for after the catch- the net result in the W/L column will be a bad NE team. Defense rules, and it's ruled that team during their moment in the sun- it's merely a QB obsessed media and fans who hold Brady up as the most important piece of the puzzle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 The league is much more watered down than it was back when it had good football- he is very good though, I'm not saying he isn't. Don't put him up with Kelly, Elway, and Marino though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Stats for QBs have improved dramatically as the reliance on the short game has become necessary due to improved athleticism across trhe LOS. And it's tiem the league recognized the farce of the "Passer rating" system that shows guys like Joe Namath down among the Brian Sipes of the league. 479432[/snapback] namath isn't a fair comparison. in the years that we're talking about, marino, montana, kelly, esiason, bernie kosar, neil lomax, and even ken o'brien consistently put up better numbers than elway. my point isn't that o'brien was a better qb than elway, but that elway was overrated, at least in the regular season. i will grant you the afc playoffs, though. he also played extremely well his final four seasons, but that was a running team first and foremost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Well said. This thread should have closed after you posted this. 479446[/snapback] This thread has me impersonating your avatar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 namath isn't a fair comparison. in the years that we're talking about, marino, montana, kelly, esiason, bernie kosar, neil lomax, and even ken o'brien consistently put up better numbers than elway. my point isn't that o'brien was a better qb than elway, but that elway was overrated, at least in the regular season. i will grant you the afc playoffs, though. he also played extremely well his final four seasons, but that was a running team first and foremost. 479460[/snapback] I would go with overrated in the first third of his career (JE), but as he matured and especially at the end when he only used his feet on rare occassions, I thought of him as a prototype complete QB and among the best to ever play. If Brady gets kicked to someone like Houston and takes them to regular playoff shots I'll move him up a bit, but right now he appears to me to be the single major beneficiary of being in the Belichick magic show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 I would go with overrated in the first third of his career (JE), but as he matured and especially at the end when he only used his feet on rare occassions, I thought of him as a prototype complete QB and among the best to ever play. If Brady gets kicked to someone like Houston and takes them to regular playoff shots I'll move him up a bit, but right now he appears to me to be the single major beneficiary of being in the Belichick magic show. 479469[/snapback] in the latter portion of his career, i would agree - he was really good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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