Kelly the Dog Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 The announcers blew it as usual. Usually tasker is right on, but he blew this one. The replay was called because they wanted to make sure he maintained possession during the fall to the ground. They COULD NOT overturn the pushed out, or feet inbounds, but if the ball wobbled or came loose as he hit the ground then it is NO CATCH! That was what they were looking for and it was inconclusive. That is what the Referee said, so thats what we live with. 29787[/snapback] Why could they not review the feet inbounds if they determined no one forced him out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zona Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 Why could they not review the feet inbounds if they determined no one forced him out? 29834[/snapback] Hey Kelly. Its a rule similar to the Down by Contact ruling from the KC Denver game last night. Once the official calls a player down by contact or forced out by a defender, then that call is not reviewable. The Officials were only able to check if he maintained possession as he hit the ground. The Competition Committee meets every year to review things like this and decides how to correct it, but Only if enough coaches and owners complain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 Hey Kelly. Its a rule similar to the Down by Contact ruling from the KC Denver game last night. Once the official calls a player down by contact or forced out by a defender, then that call is not reviewable. The Officials were only able to check if he maintained possession as he hit the ground. The Competition Committee meets every year to review things like this and decides how to correct it, but Only if enough coaches and owners complain. 29875[/snapback] It's not that I don't believe you, because I do. You seem to know a lot about this kind of stuff. But there is a clear and obvious reason why certain calls are not reviewable, like the whistle element of the player down by contact rule. I simply don't see any logical reason that a player ruled to be forced out, when found out to be NOT forced out without question (which is the only way they would overturn something anyway in theory), could not be overturned as an incomplete pass. After all, force outs are by nature and definition the end of the play. Granted, this would rarely happen. Because there is clear contact made on 99.9% of force out calls. And I can imagine why the league wouldn't want the officials debating whether or not a judgment call like a force out should be overturned. Like if he only hit a little, or may have still gone OB because of the angle that he jumped rather than the push by the defender. But if there was a clear mistake by the ref (which there wasnt here) and the contact that forced the receiver out was, say, his own teammate rather than an opponent, I would think they would (or should) be able to overturn that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zona Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 I agree with you. I personally think all calls should be reviewable. But you hit on the answer yourself. The league wants the officials on the field to mkae the call. Certain calls are (ie judgement calls) they dont want to review so that guys on the field are not second guessed, or timid and indecisive. They want the official to MAKE THE CALL!!! if you say hey, this guy was down!!! then, by god he was down. Or This guy was PUSHED out, then by god he was pushed... Personally I think the refs should be trained and taught that if the Ball comes out, let the play go and review it if challenged. Dont call the guy forced out, let the replay show if he was pushed out. Quick Whistles and bad calls have screwed this league up for years. Thats why there is replay to begin with. But if you are going to have replay, do it like the NHL. Put a permanent replay official in the booth and let him buzz the field if there is a problem. Give each coach 1 challenge. PERIOD. dont waste our time on the meaningless calls. save that damn challenge for the game winning or losing call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOOOOOO Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 I got a question(not talkin about yesterday's play, just a scenario).... What if on the field the ref called TD no force out, The REF saying he got both feet down...and they go to review it to see if he did get both feet down....On the review it clearly shows he only got one foot in but was forced out by a defender.... Does the REF comeback negate the TD.... or can the ref make a judgement call on the review?? Can he come out and say "AFTER THE REVIEW, it was clear that reciever had possession but failed to get both feet down, but on the way down the reciever got one foot down then his second foot was forced out of bounds by the defender, still resulting in a TD" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zona Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 He could YOOOOOO, but why would he. A td is still a td. He only needs to explain when he changes the call, otherwise he COULD just say it was inconclusive.... All I want the Refs to do is, Make the call. Let the replay show if they got it right, then fix it. But only on big plays. Missed a spot? oh well. Ball came out on a catch for a 12 yard gain? who cares. Did he maintain possession on the final play of the game to give the road team the win? Yeah thats a big call. Lets get it right regardless of who called what.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 The biggest thing for the review is whether the receiver maintained possession when he landed - the ref said that he did maintain possession -making it a valid catch. I'm pretty sure they weren't checking his feet since it was ruled that he was pushed out of bounds which is a judgement call. 29501[/snapback] You are correct. Once the ref made the juidgment call that he was forced out, it is not reviewable. The only thing left was the maintaining possession issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 I got a question(not talkin about yesterday's play, just a scenario).... What if on the field the ref called TD no force out, The REF saying he got both feet down...and they go to review it to see if he did get both feet down....On the review it clearly shows he only got one foot in but was forced out by a defender.... Does the REF comeback negate the TD.... or can the ref make a judgement call on the review?? Can he come out and say "AFTER THE REVIEW, it was clear that reciever had possession but failed to get both feet down, but on the way down the reciever got one foot down then his second foot was forced out of bounds by the defender, still resulting in a TD" 29907[/snapback] That's a really great question!! I did a bunch of searches, and the only thing that I am sure of is that judgment calls are not reviewable, including whether he was forced out. So I would assume that is why he made the call immediately that he was forced out, regardless of his feet. That way, the judgment has been made up front one way or the other. By that logic, I would say no to your question. I would say that the force out judgment is made up front. If it is not called, then it cannt be later called based on the replay. The absence of the call up front is the same as saying, in my judgment he was not forced out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndirish1978 Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 the pushed out of bounds part was not reviewable, they were just checking to see if he maintained possession when he landed. I agree, you should be able to review the pushed out of bounds calls, he wasn't pushed out. In fact if you look at the replay if anything Takeo was behind him and would have helped him stay in bounds. I think the call based on the rules was ok, but the rules are retarded. There was not, in my opinion a TD. Then again, they screwed up by letting it get that far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOOOOOO Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 That's a really great question!! I did a bunch of searches, and the only thing that I am sure of is that judgment calls are not reviewable, including whether he was forced out. So I would assume that is why he made the call immediately that he was forced out, regardless of his feet. That way, the judgment has been made up front one way or the other. By that logic, I would say no to your question. I would say that the force out judgment is made up front. If it is not called, then it cannt be later called based on the replay. The absence of the call up front is the same as saying, in my judgment he was not forced out. 30348[/snapback] yea I think your right....I know judgement calls cannot be reviewed, never seen a REF make a judgement call on the review....so im guessing a REF cant... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 yea I think your right....I know judgement calls cannot be reviewed, never seen a REF make a judgement call on the review....so im guessing a REF cant... 30364[/snapback] Here's a good analogy: A call is by definition either made or not, and that is the judgment. If pass interference is not called on a play on the field, by definition the judgment is that there was no interference. So if they are reviewing a catch as to whether it was in bounds on the sideline, and the replay shows his feet were not both in, then there is no catch. Even if upon reviewing the play, it looks as if that prior to the catch, he was interfered with, they can't call interference because it was already judged there was no intereference and that judgment is not reviewable. Same with the force out situation. If a force out is not called on the field, then the judgment is that there was no force out. If it turns out that both feet aren't down in reviewing the play but that there was some momentum imparted which looks like a force out its too late because the judgment was already made that he was NOT forced out. That judgement call also cannot be reviewed by definition. This is true for either case, even if the ref did not actually consider whether there was initerefernce or a force out. No call implies no foul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOOOOOO Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 I know one REF yesterday called it a TD....then the other came and said force out TD....Damn that other ref...LoL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch19079 Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 a force out is like pass interference. its a judgment call and you cant review it. all you can review is if he droped the pass befor he hit the ground. so in the case of the vikings game and the bills/Jags game, the recievers caught the passes, and would have come down inbounds (in the refs judgment) and maintained control of the ball. so its a cetch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 Are you guys kidding me...look at any replay...its painfully obvious that the WR got both feet down and maintained possession throughout the catch...force out or not, he DID get his 2 feet in bounds in the back of the endzone...his right foot hit 3 feet in, and his second heel hit the endzone long before his body hit out of bounds...stop all the bellyaching about the call, it makes us all look like whiners... (that last comment was only directed to the few posters that *INSIST* he was OB, not the people that wanna discuss the reviewableness of the play) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevestojan Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 Are you guys kidding me...look at any replay...its painfully obvious that the WR got both feet down and maintained possession throughout the catch...force out or not, he DID get his 2 feet in bounds in the back of the endzone...his right foot hit 3 feet in, and his second heel hit the endzone long before his body hit out of bounds...stop all the bellyaching about the call, it makes us all look like whiners...(that last comment was only directed to the few posters that *INSIST* he was OB, not the people that wanna discuss the reviewableness of the play) 30496[/snapback] Thanks Ramius. For all of you who are saying he is out of bounds, think about it this way: switch the players' jersies. Now you have three jags mauling one Bill - do you still imagine his feet being out? He was clearly in. Good call. Just a case of a defense who played a steller game falling apart on the last drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dib Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 I doubt seriously he would have come down in bounds anyway. He landed on his back and unless he slams his feet down it's "game over boys" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOOOOOO Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 Are you guys kidding me...look at any replay...its painfully obvious that the WR got both feet down and maintained possession throughout the catch...force out or not, he DID get his 2 feet in bounds in the back of the endzone...his right foot hit 3 feet in, and his second heel hit the endzone long before his body hit out of bounds...stop all the bellyaching about the call, it makes us all look like whiners...(that last comment was only directed to the few posters that *INSIST* he was OB, not the people that wanna discuss the reviewableness of the play) 30496[/snapback] Well he did get both feet down in bounds and he did maintain possession but his ass landed out of bounds before his second foot came down....so if the 2nd REF had not called a force out...it wouldnt of been a TD... Having said that when you got 3 guys around 1 guy its going to be called a force out every time....even if he was barely touched.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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