Is Racial Profiling of Muslims Wrong?

[philburger1]

Richard Reid, the aircraft 'shoe bomber', was also of part West Indies extraction.

410659[/snapback]

 

 

Did you see his photo?

http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2001/12...mage322435x.jpg

 

It think if you looked like that you might get a little extra 'attention'

[blzrul]

And let us not forget that the latest Al Qaeda cell was located in our own prison system amongst guys recruited in prison. American guys.

 

It's not a religious thing, it's a hatred thing. Had Timothy McVeigh not been executed, he would probably have danced with glee on 9/11, and he was as Aryan-looking as they come.

[stuckincincy]

And let us not forget that the latest Al Qaeda cell was located in our own prison system amongst guys recruited in prison.  American guys.

 

It's not a religious thing, it's a hatred thing.  Had Timothy McVeigh not been executed, he would probably have danced with glee on 9/11, and he was as Aryan-looking as they come.

411168[/snapback]

 

Blz, this is a copy of a post I made in a different thred:

 

"Nobody complains when folks of Italian extraction are targeted when there is a push to capture Mafia criminals. I guess it's ok if the profile target is Caucasian."

 

What do you think about that? Likely, you will have problems combating the Mafia (and I absoultly hate any romanticizing about them such as in that "Sopranos" tv show) unless their ethnicity and appearance are given special attention.

[Terry Tate]

...and I absoultly hate any romanticizing about them such as in that "Sopranos" tv show...

"The Godfather" romanticized the Mafia. "The Sopranos" Mafia characters are, to a man, ignorant, bungling momma's boys who are the polar opposites of the "Godfather" series noble, dignified dons. Which is probably closer to the truth. Still not for everyone, but it's definitely not romanticizing the Mafia.

--------------------------

[Chris and Paulie just botched a hit on a Russian gangster, and are lost in the woods. They call Tony, and get a bad reception]

Anthony 'Tony' Soprano Sr.: Listen to me, this guy was a Russian green beret. He was in the ministry of the interior or something. He single-handedly killed 16 Chechen rebels. Be f****** careful.

Paulie 'Walnuts' Gualtieri: All right.

[hangs up]

Christopher Moltisanti: What did he say?

Paulie 'Walnuts' Gualtieri: He said the guy killed 16 Czechoslovakians, and he was an interior decorator.

Christopher Moltisanti: Interior decorator? His apartment looked like s***.

[blzrul]

Blz, this is a copy of a post I made in a different thred:

 

"Nobody complains when folks of Italian extraction are targeted when there is a push to capture Mafia criminals. I guess it's ok if the profile target is Caucasian."

 

What do you think about that?  Likely, you will have problems combating the Mafia (and I absoultly hate any romanticizing about them such as in that "Sopranos" tv show) unless their ethnicity and appearance are given special attention.

411273[/snapback]

 

I don't watch the Sopranos. But targeting Mafioso isn't a like-for-like comparison. They may not operate openly but it's no secret who they are. In their case the challenge is not learning their identify but getting enough on them to hold up in court.

 

And there are non-Italians in the Mafia by the way.

 

And the initial thread relates to profiling Muslims. My point is you can't do it. Any more than you can profile Catholics. Unless of course you look for who's eating fish fries on Friday in the Northeast....

 

Sorry - I was raised Catholic. Profile ME.

[Ray]

Why is it wrong to profile those who commit terrorism? They're are the ones doing it so big deal if they are profiled. Look, there are limited resources so why waist it on people obviously not commiting the violent acts just to be politically correct.

If a ssomeone committed murder in my neighborhood who had similar hair color, height and race as me I would expect to be profiled. Big deal if you have nothing to hide!

[Zona]

Profiling is a decent enough place to start looking for terrorists. But it is not the answer. I think that maybe instead of Profiling Middle Eastern looking men between 17-40, we should be profiling Non-Citizens. Lets start by kicking every illegal out. Then compare all current visas against the watchdog list for possible terrorists. Start internally and then move outward from there. Anyone trying to get into the USA had better have all there ducks in a row, and be prepared to be investigated. Dont like it? stay home!! If a person is here in the USA illegally, then the Constitution does NOT protect them! Say Goodbye to Hollywood....

[don_of_manhattan]

Whether we admit it or not - profiling goes on ALL the time.....The danger with only stopping arab men is that we'll likely miss some nutjob aryan looking recruit - and don't tell me that there is not at least one out there - who is willing to do their dirty work. A good security system checks everyone thoroughly.

[Fezmid]

At least learn a little about the subject before spouting off:

 

http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0508.html#1

 

The whole article is good, but here's some key points at the end:

 

3. Despite what many people think, terrorism is not confined to young Arab males. Shoe-bomber Richard Reid was British. Germaine Lindsay, one of the 7/7 London bombers, was Afro-Caribbean. Here are some more examples from a speech by the U.S. Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta:

 

"In 1986, a 32-year-old Irish woman, pregnant at the time, was about to board an El Al flight from London to Tel Aviv when El Al security agents discovered an explosive device hidden in the false bottom of her bag. The woman's boyfriend -- the father of her unborn child -- had hidden the bomb.

 

"In 1987, a 70-year-old man and a 25-year-old woman -- neither of whom were Middle Eastern -- posed as father and daughter and brought a bomb aboard a Korean Air flight from Baghdad to Thailand. En route to Bangkok, the bomb exploded, killing all on board.

 

"In 1999, men dressed as businessmen (and one dressed as a Catholic priest) turned out to be terrorist hijackers, who forced an Avianca flight to divert to an airstrip in Colombia, where some passengers were held as hostages for more than a year and a half."

 

The 2002 Bali terrorists were Indonesian. The Chechnyan terrorists who downed the Russian planes were women. Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber were Americans. The Basque terrorists are Basque, and Irish terrorists are Irish. The Tamil Tigers are Sri Lankan.

 

And many Muslims are not Arabs. Even worse, almost everyone who is Arab is not a terrorist -- many people who look Arab are not even Muslims. So not only are there an large number of false negatives -- terrorists who don't meet the profile -- but there an enormous number of false positives: innocents that do meet the profile.

CW

[finknottle]

Well DUH, Dave. Anyone with even the most cursory knowledge knows the Pakistani connection. that's why I included them with the above.

409224[/snapback]

 

It's not clear from this thread whether you folks know that Pakistani's are not Arabs. They are not. Nor is Pakistan in the middle east.

 

For the record, the first Arab country among those with the largest muslim populations is 7th:

 

1. Indonesia, 182.2m

2. Pakistan, 136.9m

3. Bangledesh, 115m

4. India, 108.6

5. Iran, 63.9m (Persian; only 3% are Arab)

6. Turkey, 61.1m (Turks are not Arabs)

7. Egypt, 51.6m

 

But I suppose for the sake of the profile that we can take solice in the fact that those foreigners all probably look the same to us, and those are all middle east or north africa -type places...

[simadafuma]

Profiling is a decent enough place to start looking for terrorists. But it is not the answer. I think that maybe instead of Profiling Middle Eastern looking men  between 17-40, we should be profiling Non-Citizens. Lets start by kicking every illegal out. Then compare all current visas against the watchdog list for possible terrorists. Start internally and then move outward from there. Anyone trying to get into the USA had better have all there ducks in a row, and be prepared to be investigated. Dont like it? stay home!! If a person is here in the USA illegally, then the Constitution does NOT protect them! Say Goodbye to Hollywood....

414013[/snapback]

 

 

Exactly.

[Ghost of BiB]

It's not clear from this thread whether you folks know that Pakistani's are not Arabs.  They are not.  Nor is Pakistan in the middle east.

 

For the record, the first Arab country among those with the largest muslim populations is 7th:

 

1.  Indonesia,  182.2m

2.  Pakistan,  136.9m

3.  Bangledesh,  115m

4.  India,  108.6

5.  Iran,  63.9m  (Persian; only 3% are Arab)

6.  Turkey,  61.1m  (Turks are not Arabs)

7.  Egypt,  51.6m

 

But I suppose for the sake of the profile that we can take solice in the fact that those foreigners all probably look the same to us, and those are all middle east or north africa -type places...

420738[/snapback]

 

Prior post

[blzrul]

Why is it wrong to profile those who commit terrorism?  They're are the ones doing it so big deal if they are profiled.  Look, there are limited resources so why waist it on people obviously not commiting the violent acts just to be politically correct. 

If a ssomeone committed murder in my neighborhood who had similar hair color, height and race as me I would expect to be profiled.  Big deal if you have nothing to hide!

412985[/snapback]

So let's think about that:

 

Timothy McVeigh, terrorist: Blonde, fair skinned, non-Muslim.

Ted Kascynzki (spelling? ugh): White, dark curly hair, non-Muslim.

Richard Ried: British, who knows about the rest.

 

and the list goes on. Pretty soon everyone WILL be profiled so we'd be right where we are now - not knowing!

[Ghost of BiB]

So let's think about that:

 

Timothy McVeigh, terrorist:  Blonde, fair skinned, non-Muslim.

Ted Kascynzki (spelling? ugh):  White, dark curly hair, non-Muslim.

Richard Ried:  British, who knows about the rest.

 

and the list goes on.  Pretty soon everyone WILL be profiled so we'd be right where we are now - not knowing!

421147[/snapback]

 

Let's see here...about 10 middle/east-western asian types per day...

 

3 examples of non over the last 10 years or so...

 

I'll go with the odds and profile.

[philburger1]

So let's think about that:

 

Timothy McVeigh, terrorist:  Blonde, fair skinned, non-Muslim.

Ted Kascynzki (spelling? ugh):  White, dark curly hair, non-Muslim.

Richard Ried:  British, who knows about the rest.

 

and the list goes on.  Pretty soon everyone WILL be profiled so we'd be right where we are now - not knowing!

421147[/snapback]

 

 

AGAIN: None of those people every attacked a mass transit system.

We are talking about checking people getting on Trains and Aircrafts.

When Whitey starts blowing up planes, then I will worry about him.

In the meantime, I will look at Akmad Mohhamend Ahbur with a little more caution when he steps onboard.

[Ramius]

I agree that we should profile...and its simply put

 

if i'm going to be shot at work or sniped, chances are it'll be by some psycho white lunatic from montana

if i'm going to have my plane blown up or be a victim of a suicide bomber, chances are its gonna be by a diaper on the head arab or muslim...

[finknottle]

I agree that we should profile...and its simply put

 

if i'm going to be shot at work or sniped, chances are it'll be by some psycho white lunatic from montana

if i'm going to have my plane blown up or be a victim of a suicide bomber, chances are its gonna be by a diaper on the head arab or muslim...

421655[/snapback]

 

I too am pro-profiling.

 

The problem is that profiling on too broad information - when millions fit the description - is worthless. You would need a hundredfold increase in personnel to accomidate it. Profiling works best when you have plausible information limited to a time or place - eg, info that some pakistanis (say) are planning on crossing into Texas

[Black Panther]

Yes... a towel head is a towel head. Plus it makes it easier to eliminate them as suspects. Then we go to Middle Eastern descent and muslims. Why the heck not?

[RkFast]

I hate politically correct jackasses

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

I too am pro-profiling.

 

The problem is that profiling on too broad information - when millions fit the description - is worthless.  You would need a hundredfold increase in personnel to accomidate it.  Profiling works best when you have plausible information limited to a time or place - eg, info that some pakistanis (say) are planning on crossing into Texas

421856[/snapback]

 

Wait a minute...this makes sense. What is it doing here?

[Ghost of BiB]

eg, info that some pakistanis (say) are planning on crossing into Texas

 

Pakistanis crossing into Texas would probably get my attention regardless. You bring up another point here, having adequate resources at the right place at the right time.

 

The actuality is that what you describe does go on. There are often literally so many pieces and bits of information out there, and descriptions so vague that you are sometimes back to profiling everybody, and at several places at once.

[CoachChuckDickerson]

The actuality is that what you describe does go on. There are often literally so many pieces and bits of information out there, and descriptions so vague that you are sometimes back to profiling everybody, and at several places at once.

421995[/snapback]

 

All I know is that CTU is in real trouble this year now that they don't have Jack Bauer to save their bacon.

[SilverNRed]

All I know is that CTU is in real trouble this year now that they don't have Jack Bauer to save their bacon.

422003[/snapback]

Yeah, but they added Samwise Gamgee from Lord of the Rings, so that should help.

 

No word on if Frodo, Aragorn, or Gandalf will be helping Chloe or Edgar this year, though.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

All I know is that CTU is in real trouble this year now that they don't have Jack Bauer to save their bacon.

422003[/snapback]

 

It's not going to be the same without Kiefer Sutherland shouting "Where is the <fill in the blank>!!!!" every other episode. Ye Gods, what a stupid !@#$ing show...

[Ghost of BiB]

It's not going to be the same without Kiefer Sutherland shouting "Where is the <fill in the blank>!!!!" every other episode.    Ye Gods, what a stupid !@#$ing show...

422110[/snapback]

 

Never watched it. I'm sure it's very entertaining, which is it's point.

 

Didn't you know the aliens took over the world after Mulder left? TV mirrors reality, you know.

[Ghost of BiB]

Yeah, but they added Samwise Gamgee from Lord of the Rings, so that should help.

 

No word on if Frodo, Aragorn, or Gandalf will be helping Chloe or Edgar this year, though.

422017[/snapback]

 

Has anyone seen any of the Hobbit Women up close? Is there any "hot factor" there? I'd think the implications as to snug speak for themselves. (If you can get away from them falling in love with you on a first date.)

[Black Panther]

All I know is that CTU is in real trouble this year now that they don't have Jack Bauer to save their bacon.

422003[/snapback]

 

noooooooooooooooo!

I'm only on season 3 DVD. No more Jack Bauer??? ffff!

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Never watched it. I'm sure it's very entertaining, which is it's point.

 

Didn't you know the aliens took over the world after Mulder left? TV mirrors reality, you know.

422118[/snapback]

 

I find things like that far more entertaining when they're at least vaguely grounded in reality (or, for shows like Lost, firmly grounded in the reality they define). But I draw the line when a terrorist organization kidnaps the Secretary of Defense, co-opts the internet, uses the internet to melt down ALL the nuclear reactors in the country, hijacks a Stealth Fighter, shoots down Air Force One, steals a nuclear warhead, and launches it on a homemade cruise missile...all within 24 hours*. Stupidity is not entertaining.

 

 

 

 

 

*24 regular hours, not VABills hours.

[Ghost of BiB]

I find things like that far more entertaining when they're at least vaguely grounded in reality (or, for shows like Lost, firmly grounded in the reality they define).  But I draw the line when a terrorist organization kidnaps the Secretary of Defense, co-opts the internet, uses the internet to melt down ALL the nuclear reactors in the country, hijacks a Stealth Fighter, shoots down Air Force One, steals a nuclear warhead, and launches it on a homemade cruise missile...all within 24 hours*.    Stupidity is not entertaining.

*24 regular hours, not VABills hours.

422170[/snapback]

 

TV will tell us what to do.

[Simon]

I find things like that far more entertaining when they're at least vaguely grounded in reality (or, for shows like Lost, firmly grounded in the reality they define).  But I draw the line when a terrorist organization kidnaps the Secretary of Defense, co-opts the internet, uses the internet to melt down ALL the nuclear reactors in the country, hijacks a Stealth Fighter, shoots down Air Force One, steals a nuclear warhead, and launches it on a homemade cruise missile...all within 24 hours*.    Stupidity is not entertaining.

422170[/snapback]

 

I was wondering if you could do me the favor of please telling me that the scenario you listed above is not really what this wildly popular show is about. You're just having a little fun with the fans of the show right?

Right?

[Reuben Gant]

Has anyone seen any of the Hobbit Women up close? Is there any "hot factor" there? I'd think the implications as to snug speak for themselves. (If you can get away from them falling in love with you on a first date.)

422123[/snapback]

If hairy feet do it for you, that would also be a plus.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

I was wondering if you could do me the favor of please telling me that the scenario you listed above is not really what this wildly popular show is about. You're just having a little fun with the fans of the show right?

Right?

422322[/snapback]

 

No, that was the actual plot of this past season.

 

Season 1 was actually very, very good (people actually acted progressively more tired and took time to eat meals, which was a nice touch). 2 and 3 were okay, but stretched credibility in places. Season 4 was so contrived and unrealistic it was horrible.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Wait a minute...this makes sense.  What is it doing here? 

421977[/snapback]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Ray]

I realize there are those who commit terrorism who are NOT Muslim. But the VAST MAJORITY are! It is a fact--look at it! What did all the 9/11 terrorists have in common? How about the London bombings? How about every suicide /homicide bombing in Iraq? How about the first World Trade Center bombing? How about the USS Cole bombing? How about every suicide bombing against the Israelis? So over 99% are fanatical Muslims! So why waste time on low yield suspects? You have a limited amount of resources to deal with the problem. Therefore you have to concentrate on the most likely targets, and they are young Muslim males 18-35. It is too bad--I agree. But that is the way it is, and that is a pure fact.