Typical TBD Guy Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Dumb luck is just such a huge factor in determing the outcome which skills bring to any life. 391372[/snapback] No offense, FFS (you're still one of the best Bills posters around), but that was a totally ridiculous argument. I cited 3 GM's who I think are definitely better than TD and who I would rather have managing the Bills and who I think would have gotten us to at least the playoffs in the past 4 years. Those 3 GM's, with their respective teams, have consistently made at least the first round of the playoffs if not beyond. Luck can be a factor in individual plays, individual games, individual circumstances like injuries, even individual seasons, but over the course of multiple seasons those 3 GM's (and yes, there are several more in the NFL) have shown consistency of excellence; excellence as defined by enough W's to make the playoffs and more per season. It's the CONSISTENCY of excellence that helps us best define who is good and who is not. CONSISTENCY is the best way to reduce the "luck factor" and let the factors of ability and hard work stand out. And in that regard, TD has proven as a Bills GM so far to be consistently mediocre (he has been occasionally great and occasionaly awful, but overall mediocre). Of course luck plays a role, but then does that mean no one can ever make a value judgement on GM's, players, coaches, etc.? Are you suggesting that the whole evaluation process is faulty? That it's impossible to determine who is good and who isn't in the NFL (or anything in life, for that matter)? Should we just throw out the whole sum worth of a Super Bowl trophy because all it does is define who was really lucky and who was just unlucky? I guess no one should ever deserve to be fired, either, because they were probably just really unlucky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nodnarb Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Good. Deserves it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 The GM's of the Patriots, Eagles, and Colts (Polian!) would suffice. 391348[/snapback] I love it when people are asked what three GM's they would rather have and the say the GM's of NE, Philly, and Indy. The three GM's that there is no way in hell we would ever get. Don't forget Polian had a falling out with Wilson, so that will never happen again. How about naming three GM's you would rather have that may be possible to get your hands on. I'm okay with a GM who I consider easily in the top 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typical TBD Guy Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 I love it when people are asked what three GM's they would rather have and the say the GM's of NE, Philly, and Indy. The three GM's that there is no way in hell we would ever get. Don't forget Polian had a falling out with Wilson, so that will never happen again. How about naming three GM's you would rather have that may be possible to get your hands on. I'm okay with a GM who I consider easily in the top 5. 391506[/snapback] The dude asked us to name 3 GM's we'd rather have, so I did. If you think TD deserves to be mentioned among the top 5 GM's in the NFL, then pardon my French, but you are a !@#$ing delusional fan whose homerism is overriding common sense. TD is an AVERAGE general manager, and if his assembled team cannot make the playoffs this year, he deserves to be fired. As far as naming potential replacements, I don't know enough NFL management names to even take a guess. But in this current NFL salary cap era, how hard is it to replace mediocrity on par with TD? I remember reading something like only 6 other teams besides the Bills have not made the playoffs since the 2000 season. Some of those 6 teams included the Bengals, the Cardinals, the Texans, and the Lions. The Jags and Redskins might have been the other 2. What a !@#$ing pathetic state of Bills football to be compared with those other organizations. But apparently this doesn't bother enough fans to the point of demanding playoffs or else for 2005. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 The dude asked us to name 3 GM's we'd rather have, so I did. If you think TD deserves to be mentioned among the top 5 GM's in the NFL, then pardon my French, but you are a !@#$ing delusional fan whose homerism is overriding common sense. 391555[/snapback] Because you said so? Oh I see. I certainly can't name 5 I'd rather have. Let me go back to my thumb sucking now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 I remember reading something like only 6 other teams besides the Bills have not made the playoffs since the 2000 season. Some of those 6 teams included the Bengals, the Cardinals, the Texans, and the Lions. The Jags and Redskins might have been the other 2. 391555[/snapback] Cincy holds the crown...14 seasons have passed since they were in. That Mike Brown, whatta GM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typical TBD Guy Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Because you said so? Oh I see. I certainly can't name 5 I'd rather have. Let me go back to my thumb sucking now. 391558[/snapback] You strike me as the type of fan who got excited over the GW press conferences during the 2003 season. You probably believed that the only real problem with the 2003 team was that they just didn't "execute better." Am I right? Holy stojan, what has happened to the Buffalo Bills fan base? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad1 Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 You strike me as the type of fan who got excited over the GW press conferences during the 2003 season. You probably believed that the only real problem with the 2003 team was that they just didn't "execute better." Am I right? Holy stojan, what has happened to the Buffalo Bills fan base? 391573[/snapback] You strike me as the type of fan who would been have calling for Polian's ouster back in '87, after the Bills finished their 6th straight season without a playoff appearance. And no doubt you would have been calling for Kelly's benching, because he just finished his second losing season. Am I right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 I agree with an earlier poster in this thread who said that making the playoffs in '06 is a must. TD and crew may get a pass this year because of the lack of experience with Losman, but the Bills should make the playoffs in '06 with all the talent they supposedly have on paper. If TD ends up going 6 years without a playoff appearance, I would think RW would have to seriously consider going in another direction. Referencing threads from the last couple of months, I don't think you'll see many people who will still say they wouldn't trade our entire organization for another teams if the Bills end up not making the playoffs in either '05 or '06. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 You strike me as the type of fan who got excited over the GW press conferences during the 2003 season. You probably believed that the only real problem with the 2003 team was that they just didn't "execute better." Am I right? Holy stojan, what has happened to the Buffalo Bills fan base? 391573[/snapback] You have lots of nice convenient little categories for your different "types of fans" you can scoff at don't you? That's so cute. While you , sure as the rising sun, come up pessimist and negative each time. I think most fans here at some point have realized that you are not actually a Bills fan but get your jollies on being unrealistically critical of the team. 2003 was a mess that begins with the word Gilbride and ended with GW being in over his head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoho Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 I agree with an earlier poster in this thread who said that making the playoffs in '06 is a must. TD and crew may get a pass this year because of the lack of experience with Losman, but the Bills should make the playoffs in '06 with all the talent they supposedly have on paper. If TD ends up going 6 years without a playoff appearance, I would think RW would have to seriously consider going in another direction. Referncing threads from the last couple of months, I don't think you'll see many people who will still say they wouldn't trade our entire organization for another teams if the Bills end up not making the playoffs in either '05 or '06. 391583[/snapback] Can we get away from the simplistic perspective of whether we make the playoffs or not. How about if we consider some of the following factors. Is the team showing continual improvement? Are we maximizing our talent under the salary cap? Have we been drafting successfully? What roles did injuries play in our success or failures? Are we able to attract top free agents when they are available? Are we selling out the games, including the all important, revenue producing luxury boxes? If we had been in the NFC, there is no doubt we would have been in the playoffs last year. Would that make Donohoe a better or worse GM? If we do not make the playoffs this year but continue to show improvement and play well, I will be satisfied. It is easy to tell the fans that were spoiled by the success of the Marv Levy era and never knew how bad a poorly run organization can be. Believe me, this is one of the better management teams we have ever had. They are not that easy to come by. Look up Stew Barber and Harvey Johnson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Can we get away from the simplistic perspective of whether we make the playoffs or not. How about if we consider some of the following factors. Is the team showing continual improvement? Are we maximizing our talent under the salary cap? Have we been drafting successfully? What roles did injuries play in our success or failures? Are we able to attract top free agents when they are available? Are we selling out the games, including the all important, revenue producing luxury boxes? 391596[/snapback] I'm not sure why using a simplistic measure of success as in how many playoffs appearances a team makes over a six year period is such a bad thing. I think it is pretty indicative of the job that the man leading your football organization is doing. Yes, injuries can be a major factor and when I say that the Bills should make the playoffs in '06, I'm assuming the team will not be decimated by injury. I lived through the Stew Barber and Harvey Johnson eras. What's your point? As long as the Bills aren't going 3-13 every year, that TD is doing a good job and all fans should be pleased? PS If you want to use "continual improvement" as a gauge for success, I would expect that after 6 years that this "continual improvement" would land the Bills in the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 The dude asked us to name 3 GM's we'd rather have, so I did. If you think TD deserves to be mentioned among the top 5 GM's in the NFL, then pardon my French, but you are a !@#$ing delusional fan whose homerism is overriding common sense. TD is an AVERAGE general manager, and if his assembled team cannot make the playoffs this year, he deserves to be fired. As far as naming potential replacements, I don't know enough NFL management names to even take a guess. But in this current NFL salary cap era, how hard is it to replace mediocrity on par with TD? I remember reading something like only 6 other teams besides the Bills have not made the playoffs since the 2000 season. Some of those 6 teams included the Bengals, the Cardinals, the Texans, and the Lions. The Jags and Redskins might have been the other 2. What a !@#$ing pathetic state of Bills football to be compared with those other organizations. But apparently this doesn't bother enough fans to the point of demanding playoffs or else for 2005. 391555[/snapback] i challenge you to find ONE respected NFL expert who would agree with your statements. just ONE. your proof must come in the form of a published article from a reputable source (i.e., florio at profootballtalk.com doesn't count). this is the kind of bullcrap i expect to read from troll fans of other teams. you don't have to worship the ground TD walks on, but ANY fool can see that the bills are in a drastically upgraded position today as compared to where they were when butler left town. the defense has finished #2 for two years in a row. the ST were the best in the league (aside from K) last year. moulds. evans. mcgahee. i don't call people out unless they deserve it, and you, sir, deserve it. take off your freakishly large helmet and allow your head to breathe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoho Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 I'm not sure why using a simplistic measure of success as in how many playoffs appearances a team makes over a six year period is such a bad thing. I think it is pretty indicitive of the job that the man leading your football organization is doing. Yes, injuries can be a major factor and when I say that the Bills should make the playoffs in '06, I'm assuming the team will not be decimated by injury. I lived through the Stew Barber and Harvey Johnson eras. What's your point? As long as the Bills aren't going 3-13 every year, that TD is doing a good job and all fans should be pleased? PS If you want to use "continual improvement" as a gauge for success, I would expect that after 6 years that this "continual improvement" would land the Bills in the playoffs. 391609[/snapback] I laid out 6 different factors that I would take into consideration as I assess the job that Donohoe is doing. Let me lay out this scenario. What if we go 10-6 this year but get edged out of the playoffs. What if that also happened in '06 and we had some key injuries and every game is sold out both years. Under your "simplistic" criteria, Donohoe must go. "My point" is that there are a lot of different assessment factors and yes, I believe that just looking at whether he made the playoffs in the 6 years would be overly simplistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 I laid out 6 different factors that I would take into consideration as I assess the job that Donohoe is doing. Let me lay out this scenario. What if we go 10-6 this year but get edged out of the playoffs. What if that also happened in '06 and we had some key injuries and every game is sold out both years. Under your "simplistic" criteria, Donohoe must go. "My point" is that there are a lot of different assessment factors and yes, I believe that just looking at whether he made the playoffs in the 6 years would be overly simplistic. 391620[/snapback] I think it is highly unlikely that in three consecutive years a team could go 9-7, 10-6 and 10-6, yet miss the playoffs all 3 years. That being said, if this highly unlikely scenario happened, I would not be calling for TD's head on a platter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 The dude asked us to name 3 GM's we'd rather have, so I did. If you think TD deserves to be mentioned among the top 5 GM's in the NFL, then pardon my French, but you are a !@#$ing delusional fan whose homerism is overriding common sense. TD is an AVERAGE general manager, and if his assembled team cannot make the playoffs this year, he deserves to be fired. As far as naming potential replacements, I don't know enough NFL management names to even take a guess. But in this current NFL salary cap era, how hard is it to replace mediocrity on par with TD? I remember reading something like only 6 other teams besides the Bills have not made the playoffs since the 2000 season. Some of those 6 teams included the Bengals, the Cardinals, the Texans, and the Lions. The Jags and Redskins might have been the other 2. What a !@#$ing pathetic state of Bills football to be compared with those other organizations. But apparently this doesn't bother enough fans to the point of demanding playoffs or else for 2005. 391555[/snapback] Sorry, I don't look at only the record to see if TD is doing a decent job or not. I see a lot of good things in the future for the Bills and a lot of that has to do with TD. Things that others mentioned like attendance, the drafts, etc. This team is on the rise and its not just us "Homer" fans that think so, just look around the national media. They also like where the Bills are going even though many don't think it will happen this year. If you get rid of TD now, we'll be alright for a couple of seasons due to the talent on the current roster, but after that its a crapshoot. TD's biggest mistake was hiring GW, he went with the guy that had the strongest interview. I can't really blame him for that either, how many of us in management go with the candidate that has the strongest interview? Even the Bledsoe trade was good with respect to fan excitement and such. And by the way, this "Homer" fan does not see the Bills making the playoffs this year. I'm thinking 9-7 and just missing again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoho Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 As a fan of the Bills since 1960, I think it is safe to say that 3 best GM's we have ever had are Bill Polian, John Butler and Tom Donohoe. That means many fans here have never lived through a mediocre General Manager. The only bad times you have seen is when Butler mortgaged the future to take one last run at the Super Bowl. The forward lateral killed that idea. We have developed a pretty good team here folks. It has holes. Every team in the NFL has holes in the salary cap era. If you can't be optimistic 2 days before training camp opens, why bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven in MD Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Who would you rather have as your GM TD or AJ Smith? AJ Smith and the Chargers made the playoffs last year, a year after getting the #1 draft pick. He was Butlers right hand man, and the only person who could have gotten the job from within One Bills Drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoho Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Who would you rather have as your GM TD or AJ Smith? AJ Smith and the Chargers made the playoffs last year, a year after getting the #1 draft pick. He was Butlers right hand man, and the only person who could have gotten the job from within One Bills Drive. 391630[/snapback] My answer would be TD. If Smith turns the Chargers around for a number of years, I will buy into his talents. Remember Schottenheimer had made a lot of GM's look good by taking some mediocre talent into the playoffs. But you can be sure they wont last long in the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomerjamhead Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Wow - a little stability at the top might be beneficial... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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