Joe Ferguson forever Posted September 29 Posted September 29 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: What data did I have an incorrect conclusion? firstly, Kenessaw was not directly compared to Chicago, therefore you can't make the conclusion that the murder rate in one is different than the other. Secondly you can't conclude that the claimed difference is due to gun laws. The demographics in the two areas are vastly different. There are many other variables to be considered as well. Post Hoc Fallacy In full Latin phrasing, Post hoc ergo propter hoc means “after this, therefore because of this.” Instances of this fallacy occur when one incorrectly attributes a cause and effect relationship between two phenomena in the absence of proof that one causes the other. The flaw in this strategy is that it draws a singular relationship between a premise and a conclusion without considering an array of variables that might disqualify the possibility of such a relationship. Example 1: Every time we sacrifice virgins, it rains. Therefore, sacrificing virgins causes it to rain. Edited September 29 by Joe Ferguson forever
Royale with Cheese Posted September 29 Posted September 29 2 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: firstly, Kenessaw was not directly compared to Chicago, therefore you can't make the conclusion that the murder rate in one is different than the other. Secondly you can't conclude that the claimed difference is due to gun laws. The demographics in the two areas are vastly different. There are many other variables to be considered as well. You can look at the data lol. You criticize me for rejecting everything you put but completely reject the hard data I present? You really just said you can't make a conclusion on their murder rates lol? What?? Okay. There are surrounding areas to Kennesaw that have the same demographics as Kennesaw....they have higher murder and crime rates. This is the area I grew up in. I know all the surrounding towns very well since I have lived here for 30 years. What demographics specifically? Tell me.
Joe Ferguson forever Posted September 29 Posted September 29 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: You can look at the data lol. You criticize me for rejecting everything you put but completely reject the hard data I present? You really just said you can't make a conclusion on their murder rates lol? What?? Okay. There are surrounding areas to Kennesaw that have the same demographics as Kennesaw....they have higher murder and crime rates. This is the area I grew up in. I know all the surrounding towns very well since I have lived here for 30 years. What demographics specifically? Tell me. poverty rate. Educational attainment. population density. Sample size. Post some more data then. here. from my first citation that you apparently didn't read: In that study, which was published March 28, 2019, in the Journal of General Internal Medicine, Siegel’s team analyzed 25 years of national data to examine the relationship between 10 different types of state laws and the number of deaths by homicide and suicide in all 50 states. State gun laws requiring universal background checks for all gun sales resulted in homicide rates 15 percent lower than states without such laws. Laws prohibiting the possession of firearms by people who have been convicted of a violent crime were associated with an 18 percent reduction in homicide rates. In contrast, Siegel found that laws regulating the type of firearms people have access to—such as assault weapon bans and large capacity ammunition magazine bans—and “stand your ground” laws have no effect on the rate of firearm-related homicide. None of the state gun laws studied were found to be related to overall suicide rates. Universal background checks, which have long been a top priority for gun control advocates and policymakers in the United States, appear to have the biggest impact. Though there has been a push for federal gun regulations in recent years, the power to legislate gun sales and gun ownership is largely beholden to the states. And according to Siegel, the data don’t lie. The average firearm homicide rate in states without background checks is 58 percent higher than the average in states with background-check laws in place. As of 2017, only 13 states, including Massachusetts, had laws requiring universal background checks. Edited September 29 by Joe Ferguson forever
T master Posted September 29 Posted September 29 9 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said: So two mass shootings today, both former Marines. Michigan guy looks like the central casting Rural Trump Supporter and they say Google maps captured a Trump sign on his fence this summer. So what's his beef with the Mormons? Carolina guy just seems batshit crazy. Wounded in Iraq, which I'm sure has something to do with it. Again: Charlie Kirk was a rarity; it is foolish to characterize these shooters as Democratic or Republican when the Crazy overwhelms any possible political motivation. Crazy + Guns + Social Media. That's all there is to say. Of course the lame stream media can't forget to stick the Trump thing in there OMG it wouldn't be a story if it wasn't just that the person was a total basket case or just plain bat ***** crazy there has to be that link - WTF !!! Got to make it political at all costs ! Could it be that the guy had PTSD from being in a useless war that our gov't sent them over to fight or that he just hates the Mormon religion and doesn't believe at all in their doctrine ? NOPE IT'S A TRUMP THING BY GOD !!!! ALL VIOLENCE LEADS TO TRUMP .... WTFE .
Trump_is_Mentally_fit Posted September 29 Posted September 29 10 minutes ago, T master said: Of course the lame stream media can't forget to stick the Trump thing in there OMG it wouldn't be a story if it wasn't just that the person was a total basket case or just plain bat ***** crazy there has to be that link - WTF !!! Got to make it political at all costs ! Could it be that the guy had PTSD from being in a useless war that our gov't sent them over to fight or that he just hates the Mormon religion and doesn't believe at all in their doctrine ? NOPE IT'S A TRUMP THING BY GOD !!!! ALL VIOLENCE LEADS TO TRUMP .... WTFE . Come on, Trump was blaming "the left" even before the bodies were cold
Royale with Cheese Posted September 29 Posted September 29 26 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: poverty rate. Educational attainment. population density. Sample size. Post some more data then. here. from my first citation that you apparently didn't read: In that study, which was published March 28, 2019, in the Journal of General Internal Medicine, Siegel’s team analyzed 25 years of national data to examine the relationship between 10 different types of state laws and the number of deaths by homicide and suicide in all 50 states. State gun laws requiring universal background checks for all gun sales resulted in homicide rates 15 percent lower than states without such laws. Laws prohibiting the possession of firearms by people who have been convicted of a violent crime were associated with an 18 percent reduction in homicide rates. In contrast, Siegel found that laws regulating the type of firearms people have access to—such as assault weapon bans and large capacity ammunition magazine bans—and “stand your ground” laws have no effect on the rate of firearm-related homicide. None of the state gun laws studied were found to be related to overall suicide rates. Universal background checks, which have long been a top priority for gun control advocates and policymakers in the United States, appear to have the biggest impact. Though there has been a push for federal gun regulations in recent years, the power to legislate gun sales and gun ownership is largely beholden to the states. And according to Siegel, the data don’t lie. The average firearm homicide rate in states without background checks is 58 percent higher than the average in states with background-check laws in place. As of 2017, only 13 states, including Massachusetts, had laws requiring universal background checks. There are 90,000 poor white, non-hispanic people in Chicago. They don't have a murder rate anywhere near as high as the minorities in the city. The cities with the highest murder rates generally have the stricter gun laws. They are getting the guns regardless. Punish the people, it's simple. 1
T master Posted September 29 Posted September 29 3 minutes ago, Trump_is_Mentally_fit said: Come on, Trump was blaming "the left" even before the bodies were cold And you were blaming him before the bodies were cold so then there's that !!
The Frankish Reich Posted September 29 Posted September 29 52 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: OMG, an opinion piece lol. Why not just look at the data lol? You can look up crime and murder stats. Where are you more likely to be shot and killed? Kennesaw, GA or Chicago, IL? Just because Scientific America says you're more likely to be killed in Kennesaw than Chicago doesn't make it true. How about this? Lets text each other at 2:00 am, I will be walking down the streets in Kennesaw. You walk down the streets in Chicago. Deal? Because in all other respects Kennesaw GA (population 37,740) is exactly the same as Chicago IL (pop 2.721 million). Maybe compare Sydney, AUS? (pop 5.56 million?) Sydney's murder rate for the most recent reported year: 28 last year.
Joe Ferguson forever Posted September 29 Posted September 29 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: There are 90,000 poor white, non-hispanic people in Chicago. They don't have a murder rate anywhere near as high as the minorities in the city. The cities with the highest murder rates generally have the stricter gun laws. They are getting the guns regardless. Punish the people, it's simple. Red Herring Fallacy The red herring fallacy refers to an instance in which one speaker attempts to divert the attention of another speaker from the primary argument by offering a point which may be true, but which does not actually further the substance of a counterargument. So named for the implication that the odoriferous fish in question might “throw one off the scent” of the actual argument itself, the red herring will typically support a conclusion with a fact which does not actually provide substantive support. Example 1: Child: This fish tastes funny. I don’t want to eat this. Parent: There are children starving in Africa. Eat your dinner. The topic is gun control's effect on the homicide rate.....my point about different demographics was in response to your study (which salient but flawed) Edited September 29 by Joe Ferguson forever 1
Trump_is_Mentally_fit Posted September 29 Posted September 29 2 minutes ago, T master said: And you were blaming him before the bodies were cold so then there's that !! Well ya, but I'm just going to do that...🤣 Why are Trump supporters so violent?
Joe Ferguson forever Posted September 29 Posted September 29 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Trump_is_Mentally_fit said: Well ya, but I'm just going to do that...🤣 Why are Trump supporters so violent? That's easy. They're angry. Edited September 29 by Joe Ferguson forever
Trump_is_Mentally_fit Posted September 29 Posted September 29 2 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: That's easy. They're angry. Boy, they sure are! I wish the Democrats would become the pro-gun party. Why not, it's stupid to think that genie can be put back in the bottle
Joe Ferguson forever Posted September 29 Posted September 29 2 minutes ago, Trump_is_Mentally_fit said: Boy, they sure are! I wish the Democrats would become the pro-gun party. Why not, it's stupid to think that genie can be put back in the bottle when they go low, we go high.
B-Man Posted September 29 Posted September 29 1 hour ago, Roundybout said: Why have any laws, then? Hahahahahahahaha. What a response. Sit down Round&round and read. So when people engage in activity bad for the general public, they can be prosecuted and given a penalty for it. By the way, notice how the thread has been hijacked from the original story Hmmmm. What We Know About the Shooting and Fire at a Michigan Church At least four people were killed after an attacker opened fire at a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint building and intentionally set fire to the structure. The gunman crashed a vehicle into the building, (outlaw cars !!) then began shooting at congregants who were attending Sunday services, the police said. Fire soon consumed the church, as well. Officers responded within a minute to reports of the shooting. Eight minutes later, the shooter was dead after exchanging gunfire with the police, the authorities said. Investigators believe the fire was fueled by gasoline or another accelerant. Three makeshift explosives were also recovered, said James Deir, an agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Who is the suspect? The gunman was identified by the authorities as Thomas Jacob Sanford, 40, of nearby Burton, Mich. Mr. Sanford, who also went by Jake, used an assault-style rifle in the shooting, the authorities said. He graduated from a nearby high school in 2004 and then enlisted in the Marines, serving four years, including a deployment to Iraq in 2007. {snip} The Michigan attack adds to a growing list of recent assaults on American religious institutions. Two children were killed by an assailant at a Catholic school in Minneapolis in August. In July, two women were fatally shot and two others were wounded on the grounds of a church in Lexington, Ky. https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/29/us/michigan-mormon-church-shooting-fire.html
Trump_is_Mentally_fit Posted September 29 Posted September 29 3 minutes ago, B-Man said: Hahahahahahahaha. What a response. Sit down Round&round and read. So when people engage in activity bad for the general public, they can be prosecuted and given a penalty for it. By the way, notice how the thread has been hijacked from the original story Hmmmm. What We Know About the Shooting and Fire at a Michigan Church At least four people were killed after an attacker opened fire at a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint building and intentionally set fire to the structure. The gunman crashed a vehicle into the building, (outlaw cars !!) then began shooting at congregants who were attending Sunday services, the police said. Fire soon consumed the church, as well. Officers responded within a minute to reports of the shooting. Eight minutes later, the shooter was dead after exchanging gunfire with the police, the authorities said. Investigators believe the fire was fueled by gasoline or another accelerant. Three makeshift explosives were also recovered, said James Deir, an agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Who is the suspect? The gunman was identified by the authorities as Thomas Jacob Sanford, 40, of nearby Burton, Mich. Mr. Sanford, who also went by Jake, used an assault-style rifle in the shooting, the authorities said. He graduated from a nearby high school in 2004 and then enlisted in the Marines, serving four years, including a deployment to Iraq in 2007. {snip} The Michigan attack adds to a growing list of recent assaults on American religious institutions. Two children were killed by an assailant at a Catholic school in Minneapolis in August. In July, two women were fatally shot and two others were wounded on the grounds of a church in Lexington, Ky. https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/29/us/michigan-mormon-church-shooting-fire.html He was MAGA, right?
Roundybout Posted September 29 Posted September 29 3 minutes ago, B-Man said: Hahahahahahahaha. What a response. Sit down Round&round and read. So when people engage in activity bad for the general public, they can be prosecuted and given a penalty for it. By the way, notice how the thread has been hijacked from the original story Hmmmm. What We Know About the Shooting and Fire at a Michigan Church At least four people were killed after an attacker opened fire at a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint building and intentionally set fire to the structure. The gunman crashed a vehicle into the building, (outlaw cars !!) then began shooting at congregants who were attending Sunday services, the police said. Fire soon consumed the church, as well. Officers responded within a minute to reports of the shooting. Eight minutes later, the shooter was dead after exchanging gunfire with the police, the authorities said. Investigators believe the fire was fueled by gasoline or another accelerant. Three makeshift explosives were also recovered, said James Deir, an agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Who is the suspect? The gunman was identified by the authorities as Thomas Jacob Sanford, 40, of nearby Burton, Mich. Mr. Sanford, who also went by Jake, used an assault-style rifle in the shooting, the authorities said. He graduated from a nearby high school in 2004 and then enlisted in the Marines, serving four years, including a deployment to Iraq in 2007. {snip} The Michigan attack adds to a growing list of recent assaults on American religious institutions. Two children were killed by an assailant at a Catholic school in Minneapolis in August. In July, two women were fatally shot and two others were wounded on the grounds of a church in Lexington, Ky. https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/29/us/michigan-mormon-church-shooting-fire.html Why not mention his MAGA attire he was seen wearing in his Facebook picture?
B-Man Posted September 29 Posted September 29 So the story is continued hatred of religious faith Quelle surprise. FBI believes Michigan church shooter 'hated people of the Mormon faith White House press secretary Karoline Leavitt revealed new details about the gunman who killed at least four people and injured several others during a crowded Sunday service at a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints church in Michigan. Leavitt told “FOX & Friends” on Monday morning that, through conversations with FBI Director Kash Patel, she has learned that Marine veteran Thomas Jacob Sanford harbored a hatred for people of the Mormon faith. “From what I understand, based on my conversations with the FBI director, all they know right now is this was an individual who hated people of the Mormon faith, and they are trying to understand more about this, how premeditated it was, how much planning went into it, whether he left a note, all of those questions have yet to be answered, but certainly will be answered by the FBI,” she said. The FBI is currently executing multiple search warrants at Sanford’s homes “to get the bottom of why he would commit such an act of evil,” according to Leavitt. Leavitt added that the gunman’s family is cooperating with the FBI. Sanford plowed a pickup into a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints church in Grand Blanc, Michigan, opened fire and set the building ablaze. He was killed after engaging with responding law enforcement officers. Authorities are searching the building ruins for more victims. https://www.foxnews.com/live-news/michigan-church-shooting-9-29-25 .
Royale with Cheese Posted September 29 Posted September 29 25 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: Red Herring Fallacy The red herring fallacy refers to an instance in which one speaker attempts to divert the attention of another speaker from the primary argument by offering a point which may be true, but which does not actually further the substance of a counterargument. So named for the implication that the odoriferous fish in question might “throw one off the scent” of the actual argument itself, the red herring will typically support a conclusion with a fact which does not actually provide substantive support. Example 1: Child: This fish tastes funny. I don’t want to eat this. Parent: There are children starving in Africa. Eat your dinner. The topic is gun control's effect on the homicide rate.....my point about different demographics was in response to your study (which salient but flawed) You are the one who brought up demographics lol. That’s why I was talking about it. I brought up a demographic to counter your demographic claim. Wow.
Trump_is_Mentally_fit Posted September 29 Posted September 29 4 minutes ago, B-Man said: So the story is continued hatred of religious faith Quelle surprise. FBI believes Michigan church shooter 'hated people of the Mormon faith White House press secretary Karoline Leavitt revealed new details about the gunman who killed at least four people and injured several others during a crowded Sunday service at a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints church in Michigan. Leavitt told “FOX & Friends” on Monday morning that, through conversations with FBI Director Kash Patel, she has learned that Marine veteran Thomas Jacob Sanford harbored a hatred for people of the Mormon faith. “From what I understand, based on my conversations with the FBI director, all they know right now is this was an individual who hated people of the Mormon faith, and they are trying to understand more about this, how premeditated it was, how much planning went into it, whether he left a note, all of those questions have yet to be answered, but certainly will be answered by the FBI,” she said. The FBI is currently executing multiple search warrants at Sanford’s homes “to get the bottom of why he would commit such an act of evil,” according to Leavitt. Leavitt added that the gunman’s family is cooperating with the FBI. Sanford plowed a pickup into a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints church in Grand Blanc, Michigan, opened fire and set the building ablaze. He was killed after engaging with responding law enforcement officers. Authorities are searching the building ruins for more victims. https://www.foxnews.com/live-news/michigan-church-shooting-9-29-25 . He was MAGA, right?
Roundybout Posted September 29 Posted September 29 5 minutes ago, B-Man said: So the story is continued hatred of religious faith Quelle surprise. FBI believes Michigan church shooter 'hated people of the Mormon faith White House press secretary Karoline Leavitt revealed new details about the gunman who killed at least four people and injured several others during a crowded Sunday service at a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints church in Michigan. Leavitt told “FOX & Friends” on Monday morning that, through conversations with FBI Director Kash Patel, she has learned that Marine veteran Thomas Jacob Sanford harbored a hatred for people of the Mormon faith. “From what I understand, based on my conversations with the FBI director, all they know right now is this was an individual who hated people of the Mormon faith, and they are trying to understand more about this, how premeditated it was, how much planning went into it, whether he left a note, all of those questions have yet to be answered, but certainly will be answered by the FBI,” she said. The FBI is currently executing multiple search warrants at Sanford’s homes “to get the bottom of why he would commit such an act of evil,” according to Leavitt. Leavitt added that the gunman’s family is cooperating with the FBI. Sanford plowed a pickup into a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints church in Grand Blanc, Michigan, opened fire and set the building ablaze. He was killed after engaging with responding law enforcement officers. Authorities are searching the building ruins for more victims. https://www.foxnews.com/live-news/michigan-church-shooting-9-29-25 . Any thoughts?
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