Down 40-25 with around 7 minutes left and this is what we get from JA

[hondo in seattle]

12 minutes ago, Walking Tall said:

Allen has, IMO, passed Bruce as the best player in team history.

 

Hold on a minute.  I hate to bring this up because I don't like the man but...

 

Back when the best athletes became RBs, and RBs were winning Heismans and getting picked #1 overall in the draft, and coaches believed you had to establish the run first, and defenses defended the run first, and LBers were brutal RB-killers with manly names like Dick Butkis and Chuck Bednarik, we had OJ.  

 

In 1973, the best of the league's freakishly talented RBs could only manage at best 1,144 yards against the era's man-eating defenses.  Except for OJ, who ran for 2,003 yards.  That would be something like Josh throwing for 7,000 yards one year when Lamar, Mahomes, and today's other greats only threw for 4,000 at best.  No accomplishment in the NFL comes close to what OJ did in 1973.

 

And, btw, Joe Ferguson only threw for 939 yards that year despite starting every game.  We had no passing attack.  OJ was our offense, and defenses that were already pre-built to stop the run focused exclusively on him.  The opponent's game plan was simple: stop OJ and you win.  But no one could.    

 

 

 

 

[Danger Mouse]

Can’t really argue with that 

[GerstAusGosheim]

5 hours ago, Bill Lewes said:

 To be fair - he's had an MVP QB for 1 game ... shouldn't we at least give him till February for this to be a criticism?

 

He's had an MVP caliber QB for 4-5 years....it's time to produce a SB.

[Walking Tall]

6 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Hold on a minute.  I hate to bring this up because I don't like the man but...

 

Back when the best athletes became RBs, and RBs were winning Heismans and getting picked #1 overall in the draft, and coaches believed you had to establish the run first, and defenses defended the run first, and LBers were brutal RB-killers with manly names like Dick Butkis and Chuck Bednarik, we had OJ.  

 

In 1973, the best of the league's freakishly talented RBs could only manage at best 1,144 yards against the era's man-eating defenses.  Except for OJ, who ran for 2,003 yards.  That would be something like Josh throwing for 7,000 yards one year when Lamar, Mahomes, and today's other greats only threw for 4,000 at best.  No accomplishment in the NFL comes close to what OJ did in 1973.

 

And, btw, Joe Ferguson only threw for 939 yards that year despite starting every game.  We had no passing attack.  OJ was our offense, and defenses that were already pre-built to stop the run focused exclusively on him.  The opponent's game plan was simple: stop OJ and you win.  But no one could.    

 

 

 

 

I’m aware of OJ. He is, IMO, the 3rd best player in franchise history. But remember, the Bills never won a playoff game when he played here. 

[GerstAusGosheim]

5 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

It’s a dumb stat…there’s quite a few mvp winners that went to 1 Super Bowl their entire career and Josh has awhile to go 

Calling it dumb doesn't erase the fact that Sean has had an MVP caliber QB for 4-5 years and nothing to show for it except giving up an average of 33 points in playoff losses.

[Jalan81]

On 9/8/2025 at 3:25 PM, MJS said:

Completely ignoring the fact that Henry, not Jackson, carried their offense up until that fumble...

I’ve rarely seen a more ignorant post than that. 🤦‍♂️

[Sierra Foothills]

13 minutes ago, Walking Tall said:

I’m aware of OJ. He is, IMO, the 3rd best player in franchise history. But remember, the Bills never won a playoff game when he played here. 

 

I do this with great reluctance because I don't want to hijack the thread... but it wasn't his fault that he didn't win a playoff game. The team around him wasn't very good. In Simpson's loss to the dynastic 1974 Pittsburgh Steelers, he ran the ball 15 times for 49 yards and added 37 yards and a TD on 3 receptions.

 

In the Steelers' next two playoff games including the Super Bowl, the Raiders and the Vikings ran the ball 42 times for only 46 yards against the Steel Curtain.

 

[hondo in seattle]

15 minutes ago, Walking Tall said:

I’m aware of OJ. He is, IMO, the 3rd best player in franchise history. But remember, the Bills never won a playoff game when he played here. 

 

It's not OJ's fault the team around him sucked.  But I'll acknowledge that Josh probably adds more W's to the win column than OJ did.  Still, the Bills have never had a player as dominant as OJ was in his prime.  

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

1 hour ago, GerstAusGosheim said:

Calling it dumb doesn't erase the fact that Sean has had an MVP caliber QB for 4-5 years and nothing to show for it except giving up an average of 33 points in playoff losses.

Oh I wasn’t trying to erase it it’s just the precursor to a really interesting convo about the average time any individual mvp/coach takes between superbowls which probably goes against the point the stat looks like it’s making.  Also it feels a little bit cheesy to not include mvp RBs especially 90s-early 2000s ones

 

and then you get guys that win mvp and appear in superbowls but lose like Dan Marino and cam newton not included (why does losing superbowls matter?) 

 

and clearly mvp caliber players that make the superbowl and lose like Joe burrow and Jim Kelly (again why does losing superbowls matter)

then you’ve got mvp caliber guys that win 1 Super Bowl over long careers like Aaron Rodgers,Matt Ryan,Matt Stafford, Russell Wilson etc

 

eventually considering all that you’ve got a stat that may be ‘true’ but doesn’t paint an accurate picture.  MVP caliber players/coaches don’t bring home Superbowls over 4-5-6-7 etc year spans extremely often.  I’ve gotta do some digging on this but I think the only coach in nfl history that averages a superbowl every 5 years or better is bill belichick and even he had a 10 year gap 

 

 

Edited September 10 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Richard Noggin]

8 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

So well said!

 

I've lived through that 17-year drought with bad head coaches and GMs. So, when Bills fans start talking stuff about firing this GM and or HC, it gets to me! 

 

This is arguably the best head coach and GM this NFL franchise has ever had, and some fans simply don't have the patience to see it through. Josh Allen wasn't this great his first few seasons, and he gets better every year.  They will get to an SB or more and win one. 

 

These HC & GM were rookies when hired in Buffalo, and not to mention that they didn't inherit a HoF pass rusher and QB like Marv Levy, Bill Polian happened to do. Nor have they drafted early in the draft because of fielding a bad team. Josh Allen didn't fall to them, as this GM knew what he needed and traded up to the #7 spot to get him. No question if they redid that 2018 NFL draft today, so many clubs would be vying to get a hold of Allen...most, if not every club?

 

It really is remarkable what this GM and HC have built in Buffalo. Joey Bose stated that after that Sun night win against the Ravens, he has never been as happy after a win, a ten-year vet. After the game in the locker room, he went around and shook the hands of all the offensive players because he stated he knew the defense was carried in that game. 

 

No one should question the winning, resilient, growth-minded, and selfless culture McDermott has built here in Buffalo. He quickly built a culture of success out of the ashes of historically prolonged mediocrity. That happened. Continues to happen.

 

HOWEVER

 

The Bills continually look overmatched against the league's best teams, and often rely on Josh Freaking Allen to dig them out of deficits caused in part by conservative gameplans and truly substandard defensive performances. The best offenses/QBs have mostly figured out McD's defenses, year after year. Bottom line. And for whatever reason, McD's offenses, post-Daboll, do NOT attack the top teams with confidence and aggression until it's (almost) too late. Which is a criminal offense when you have a generational QB. 

[Walking Tall]

9 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

It's not OJ's fault the team around him sucked.  But I'll acknowledge that Josh probably adds more W's to the win column than OJ did.  Still, the Bills have never had a player as dominant as OJ was in his prime.  

You’re seeing one right now. How many times does it seem the Josh Allen led Bills do something that’s never been done in NFL history? Look at some of the things Allen has done that never have been, I.e., 40 plus TD’s in consecutive seasons, more than double the next guy in 2 TD passes and 2 TD rushes in a game.

 

And you say it’s not OJ’s fault his team sucked. How good would the Bills be without Allen?

 

Key NFL Records

 

First 5+ Consecutive 40+ TD Seasons:

Allen is the first player in NFL history to have five straight seasons with at least 40 combined passing and rushing touchdowns. 

 

First 6+ Rushing TDs in 7 Straight Seasons:

He is the only player to achieve at least six rushing touchdowns in seven consecutive seasons. 

 

Most Wins, TDs, and Yards in First 7 Seasons:

Allen has the most wins (76), total touchdowns (262), and total yards (30,595) for a player in their first seven NFL seasons. 

 

Most Games with Two Pass & Two Rush TDs:

He is the first quarterback in NFL history with seven career games that include at least two passing and two rushing touchdowns. 

 

Buffalo Bills Records

 

Most Career Rushing Touchdowns: Allen has 67 career rushing touchdowns, surpassing Thurman Thomas's previous franchise record. 

 

Most Career Rushing Yards by a Bills QB: He also holds the team record for most rushing yards by a quarterback. 

 

Most 4,000-Yard Passing Seasons: Allen is the only Bills quarterback with multiple seasons of 4,000 or more passing yards. 

Most Franchise Total Touchdowns: He holds the Buffalo Bills franchise record for most total touchdowns. 

Edited September 10 by Walking Tall

[hondo in seattle]

4 hours ago, Walking Tall said:

You’re seeing one right now. How many times does it seem the Josh Allen led Bills do something that’s never been done in NFL history? Look at some of the things Allen has done that never have been, I.e., 40 plus TD’s in consecutive seasons, more than double the next guy in 2 TD passes and 2 TD rushes in a game.

 

And you say it’s not OJ’s fault his team sucked. How good would the Bills be without Allen?

 

Key NFL Records

 

First 5+ Consecutive 40+ TD Seasons:

Allen is the first player in NFL history to have five straight seasons with at least 40 combined passing and rushing touchdowns. 

 

First 6+ Rushing TDs in 7 Straight Seasons:

He is the only player to achieve at least six rushing touchdowns in seven consecutive seasons. 

 

Most Wins, TDs, and Yards in First 7 Seasons:

Allen has the most wins (76), total touchdowns (262), and total yards (30,595) for a player in their first seven NFL seasons. 

 

Most Games with Two Pass & Two Rush TDs:

He is the first quarterback in NFL history with seven career games that include at least two passing and two rushing touchdowns. 

 

Buffalo Bills Records

 

Most Career Rushing Touchdowns: Allen has 67 career rushing touchdowns, surpassing Thurman Thomas's previous franchise record. 

 

Most Career Rushing Yards by a Bills QB: He also holds the team record for most rushing yards by a quarterback. 

 

Most 4,000-Yard Passing Seasons: Allen is the only Bills quarterback with multiple seasons of 4,000 or more passing yards. 

Most Franchise Total Touchdowns: He holds the Buffalo Bills franchise record for most total touchdowns. 

 

You make a good case, and I hate arguing against Josh because I love the guy and believe he carries this offense.   But the traditional way of measuring offensive skill players is by how many yards they produce versus their positional peers.  So let's look at the top ten rushers in OJ's MVP season and the top 10 passers in Josh's MVP season.

 

 

 

OJ had nearly as many yards as the next two very talented guys combined.  Josh didn't even make the list.  

 

And, btw, OJ won MVP with 95% of the votes.  Josh barely edged out Lamar 383-362, and a few people voted against Lamar only because they thought Lamar already had two MVPs and it was Josh's turn to get one.

 

Josh is great.  But he's not head-and-shoulders above his peers the way OJ was.  NFL fans and analysts argue who the best QB is today: Josh, Mahomes, Burrow, etc.  There was no serious argument in OJ's day who the best RB was.  

 

 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 9/9/2025 at 12:52 PM, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

This is a bizarre stat.  Do you mean over 3? Lamar has 3 playoff wins and would have even more if he didn’t miss two whole playoff run opportunities due to injury and he’s won 2 mvps 

 

then you’ve got guys like Rodgers who has won 4  mvps and went to only 1 Super Bowl in 20 years so it’s really kinda a cherry picked stat especially with it applying to just qbs (had to exclude LT somehow to make your point I guess lol.)

 

 

The MVP is a regular season award.