McBean's Drafting vs. Chiefs, Eagles, and 49ers (draft position/impact players?)

[Mr. WEO]

so it's not the talent then......

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, RoscoeParrish said:

The 2018 Chiefs had defensive talent. They had guys like Chris Jones, Dee Ford, Justin Houston, Charvarius Ward, Kendall Fuller.

 

Sure they added guys and let some guys walk but they weren’t a defense of no-names. 
 

Chris Jones was a star pre-Spags and they still sucked. Adding George Karlaftis wasn’t the difference. No more than adding Greg Rousseau was transformative for our defense.

 

Is your take that the Eagles went form worst to first defensively more because they added a starting CB and a part time CB in the draft instead of completing changing their scheme for the other 12-13 guys who were already on the roster?

 

If so, I think you’re wrong there as well.

The talent was already there in Philly and they still sucked in 2023. Mitchell and DeJean are both nice players, but they weren’t more important than Fangio.

 

Yea you are way off base. The Chiefs defense did not suck under Sutton. Not at all. They were top 10 in points 4 times in 6 years and top 10 in yards twice. They were good in the playoffs too. There was basically no change under Spags until they threw multiple day 1 and 2 picks at the unit. That is when the D majorly improved. Spags history is he is very good with good talent. But when he had lesser talent he does not get that talent to over perform. 

 

As for Philly - yes they sucked in 2023. No question. And Fangio made a big difference. No question there either. But getting a rebound year from Darius Slay, adding Zach Baun and three secondary guys in Mitchell, DeJean and Gardner-Johnson was the biggest change. That talent infusion was the #1 reason for the improvement. 

 

 

[RoscoeParrish]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

But getting a rebound year from Darius Slay, adding Zach Baun

I suppose Darius Slay having a resurgent year and Zach Baun going from a mid tier FA to an All-Pro had nothing to do with coaching either.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, RoscoeParrish said:

I suppose Darius Slay having a resurgent year and Zach Baun going from a mid tier FA to an All-Pro had nothing to do with coaching either.

 

Slay has been an elite corner the majority of his career. I think much more likely 2023 was just a down year for an ageing player than Fangio being responsible for the rebound. 

 

As for Baun - certainly possible. I'm sure Fangio was involved the in the evalution to fit him into a different scheme than he had played in.

 

I am not saying Fangio had no impact. But Talent > Coaching always and forever in the NFL. Coaching matters. Talent matters more.

[RoscoeParrish]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Slay has been an elite corner the majority of his career. I think much more likely 2023 was just a down year for an ageing player than Fangio being responsible for the rebound. 

 

As for Baun - certainly possible. I'm sure Fangio was involved the in the evalution to fit him into a different scheme than he had played in.

 

I am not saying Fangio had no impact. But Talent > Coaching always and forever in the NFL. Coaching matters. Talent matters more.

I’m not saying that talent doesn’t matter more than coaching.

 

What I’m saying is that these teams HAD largely the same talent. This is obvious. Philly had the same DL. They had guys like Nakobe Dean and Nolan Smitn who were high draft picks that were unplayable prior to 2024.

 

Virtually every Philly defender had a better 2024 than 2023. But it wasn’t because of coaching. Okay, sure.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, RoscoeParrish said:

I’m not saying that talent doesn’t matter more than coaching.

 

What I’m saying is that these teams HAD largely the same talent. This is obvious. Philly had the same DL. They had guys like Nakobe Dean and Nolan Smitn who were high draft picks that were unplayable prior to 2024.

 

Virtually every Philly defender had a better 2024 than 2023. But it wasn’t because of coaching. Okay, sure.

 

Vic Fangio is a much better DC than Sean Desai. That is obvious. And Desai was definitely part of the regression between their very good D of 2022 and their bad D of 2023. So in that sense yes, of course Fangio made a difference. But the main thing that changed between 2022 and 2023 was their secondary collapsed they couldn't stop anyone in coverage. And the main thing that changed between 2023 and 2024 was they infused the pass D with talent. 3 new guys in the secondary and a coverage linebacker.

[RoscoeParrish]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Vic Fangio is a much better DC than Sean Desai. That is obvious. And Desai was definitely part of the regression between their very good D of 2022 and their bad D of 2023. So in that sense yes, of course Fangio made a difference. But the main thing that changed between 2022 and 2023 was their secondary collapsed they couldn't stop anyone in coverage. And the main thing that changed between 2023 and 2024 was they infused the pass D with talent. 3 new guys in the secondary and a coverage linebacker.

Well then, we got our “talent infusion.” So we should be very good this year in the postseason, right

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, RoscoeParrish said:

Well then, we got our “talent infusion.” So we should be very good this year in the postseason, right

 

If that talent works out as well as the Eagles guys, definitely!

[RoscoeParrish]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

If that talent works out as well as the Eagles guys, definitely!

Feels like dirty pool to me.

 

If the guys don’t play well, we’ll just say they aren’t talented. It’s not anything else.

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, RoscoeParrish said:

Feels like dirty pool to me.

 

If the guys don’t play well, we’ll just say they aren’t talented. It’s not anything else.

 

If it is something else that will get proven in the long run. Talent always wins in the NFL. There are guys who get misused and then go somewhere else and excel. I don't think that has happened a ton with guys the Bills have had. Poona Ford is one. I don't think the Bills maximised him in his one year here. But there are not a ton of others. In actual fact quite the opposite. There are numermous guys - EJ Gaines, Dane Jackson, Jordan Phillips etc who could never replicate their success here in other stops.

[st pete gogolak]

If the Bills had won a SB over the last five years (or even appeared in one), this topic is moot.  Because we’ve been so painfully close, it’s easy to point to Beane’s misses as the reason (Ford instead of AJ Brown or Metcalf, Basham instead of Humphrey, KC jumping us for McDuffie and we whiff on Elam, he’ll even Oliver instead of Wilkins, Simmons or Lawrence).  But as been pointed out many, many times every GM, even Veach and Rosman have misses.  The teams referenced here - SF, KC and Philly - have all had huge misses. SF picking Lance #3, Philly Reagor over Jefferson or Higgins, KC with numerous whiffs over the years.  If we win or even reach the SB this year, all this goes away.

[SoTier]

On 5/17/2025 at 1:18 AM, Mikie2times said:

Not trying to be a jerk here, but this is the usual stuff on the board and I don't give anybody a pass. You have no idea if our injuries are more or less. Even within the context of just playoff teams, let alone the the regular season. The Lions or the _____'s or the ____'s have nothing to do with it.

 

The injury beating crew do it without the context of what is normal and what is not normal. How can anything be abnormal if you cant establish normal? I will place my fake bet and say the Buffalo Bills from 2020-2025 have not faced an abnormal amount of injuries comparative to the league average. Are you putting your fake bet down to say that isn't the case?

 

 

You really aren't trying very hard.

 

 

[JP51]

I think Beane is very good at picking off player rds 4-6 where your bar for success is getting a player that contributes consistently with the odd excellent player... where he is not good is rounds 1-3 where your bar for success is a consistent starter and a high quality contributor with a good amount of game changers... where you get you difference makers...  So just a quick grouping for Beane's 1-3 I am sure there will be some disagreement in where people are placed... there is no science here.. but from my perspective he drafted 4 game changers and 4 really solid core pieces...  then lots of misses and serviceable players that really underwhelm for where they were picked... and then lots of underwhelming but there is hope I hope... players.  But last years draft produced no real help at all in rds 1-3... you dont want to do that too many drafts...  anyways just my opinion. 

 

Stars - Allen, Dawkins, Cook, White

Hits -  Rousseau, Spencer Brown,  , Bernard, Torrence

Misses  Zay Jones, Cody Ford , Epenesa, Zak Moss. Basham,  Elam

Not a total miss but underwhelming for the pick -  Singletary, Knox, Oliver, Edmunds, Phillips, 

Underwhelming/Developing  - Coleman, Bishop, Carter (like this just cannot happen all 3 and no one really makes a difference...in 1 draft) Kincaid, Williams 

[GunnerBill]

21 minutes ago, JP51 said:

I think Beane is very good at picking off player rds 4-6 where your bar for success is getting a player that contributes consistently with the odd excellent player... where he is not good is rounds 1-3 where your bar for success is a consistent starter and a high quality contributor with a good amount of game changers... where you get you difference makers...  So just a quick grouping for Beane's 1-3 I am sure there will be some disagreement in where people are placed... there is no science here.. but from my perspective he drafted 4 game changers and 4 really solid core pieces...  then lots of misses and serviceable players that really underwhelm for where they were picked... and then lots of underwhelming but there is hope I hope... players.  But last years draft produced no real help at all in rds 1-3... you dont want to do that too many drafts...  anyways just my opinion. 

 

Stars - Allen, Dawkins, Cook, White

Hits -  Rousseau, Spencer Brown,  , Bernard, Torrence

Misses  Zay Jones, Cody Ford , Epenesa, Zak Moss. Basham,  Elam

Not a total miss but underwhelming for the pick -  Singletary, Knox, Oliver, Edmunds, Phillips, 

Underwhelming/Developing  - Coleman, Bishop, Carter (like this just cannot happen all 3 and no one really makes a difference...in 1 draft) Kincaid, Williams 

 

Dawkins, White and Zay were not Beane. They were McDermott.

 

And Oliver is a hit. Not a star, but a hit.

Edited 3 hours ago by GunnerBill

[HomeskillitMoorman]

On 5/14/2025 at 7:32 PM, H2o said:

Nice breakdown. 

 

Beane/McDermott, though we get frustrated and talk a lot of crap at times, when you stack them up against the other top end teams in the league, we look just as good. I really believe this year's draft is the one that is going to put us over the top. I really loved this draft class. 

 

I don't know how it can be said that we look just as good when we haven't won anything. Before this past season we had 3 Divisional exits in a row. 

 

We really haven't even been close to winning it all if you examine where we've been in the postseason during this era, that to me has become such a misnomer. 

 

The McBeane regime has been good but not great, those are just facts. 

Edited 3 hours ago by HomeskillitMoorman

[JP51]

28 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Dawkins, White and Zay were not Beane. They were McDermott.

 

And Oliver is a hit. Not a star, but a hit.

There is no doubt there will be a difference of opinion in some of the catagories for sure... good call on the Dawkins White Zay thing... I sometimes mix up the era... cause Whaley was in the room and Beane came after... its all blurring in my mind at this point...   I have different thoughts on Oliver, but I am certain there is plenty of people with an opinion closer to yours...   He could also be in the developing catagory I am interested to see how he plays with a dominant DT next to him... he may push through... I am however disappointed in him last year for sure. 

[GunnerBill]

49 minutes ago, JP51 said:

There is no doubt there will be a difference of opinion in some of the catagories for sure... good call on the Dawkins White Zay thing... I sometimes mix up the era... cause Whaley was in the room and Beane came after... its all blurring in my mind at this point...   I have different thoughts on Oliver, but I am certain there is plenty of people with an opinion closer to yours...   He could also be in the developing catagory I am interested to see how he plays with a dominant DT next to him... he may push through... I am however disappointed in him last year for sure. 

 

If we are talking just 2024.... Ed was bad for 2/3s of the year. But down the stretch and in the playoffs he was very good. 

[Mikie2times]

4 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

You really aren't trying very hard.

 

 

Always high end content from your end