McBean's Drafting vs. Chiefs, Eagles, and 49ers (draft position/impact players?)

[Mr. WEO]

so it's not the talent then......

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, RoscoeParrish said:

The 2018 Chiefs had defensive talent. They had guys like Chris Jones, Dee Ford, Justin Houston, Charvarius Ward, Kendall Fuller.

 

Sure they added guys and let some guys walk but they weren’t a defense of no-names. 
 

Chris Jones was a star pre-Spags and they still sucked. Adding George Karlaftis wasn’t the difference. No more than adding Greg Rousseau was transformative for our defense.

 

Is your take that the Eagles went form worst to first defensively more because they added a starting CB and a part time CB in the draft instead of completing changing their scheme for the other 12-13 guys who were already on the roster?

 

If so, I think you’re wrong there as well.

The talent was already there in Philly and they still sucked in 2023. Mitchell and DeJean are both nice players, but they weren’t more important than Fangio.

 

Yea you are way off base. The Chiefs defense did not suck under Sutton. Not at all. They were top 10 in points 4 times in 6 years and top 10 in yards twice. They were good in the playoffs too. There was basically no change under Spags until they threw multiple day 1 and 2 picks at the unit. That is when the D majorly improved. Spags history is he is very good with good talent. But when he had lesser talent he does not get that talent to over perform. 

 

As for Philly - yes they sucked in 2023. No question. And Fangio made a big difference. No question there either. But getting a rebound year from Darius Slay, adding Zach Baun and three secondary guys in Mitchell, DeJean and Gardner-Johnson was the biggest change. That talent infusion was the #1 reason for the improvement. 

 

 

[RoscoeParrish]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

But getting a rebound year from Darius Slay, adding Zach Baun

I suppose Darius Slay having a resurgent year and Zach Baun going from a mid tier FA to an All-Pro had nothing to do with coaching either.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, RoscoeParrish said:

I suppose Darius Slay having a resurgent year and Zach Baun going from a mid tier FA to an All-Pro had nothing to do with coaching either.

 

Slay has been an elite corner the majority of his career. I think much more likely 2023 was just a down year for an ageing player than Fangio being responsible for the rebound. 

 

As for Baun - certainly possible. I'm sure Fangio was involved the in the evalution to fit him into a different scheme than he had played in.

 

I am not saying Fangio had no impact. But Talent > Coaching always and forever in the NFL. Coaching matters. Talent matters more.

[RoscoeParrish]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Slay has been an elite corner the majority of his career. I think much more likely 2023 was just a down year for an ageing player than Fangio being responsible for the rebound. 

 

As for Baun - certainly possible. I'm sure Fangio was involved the in the evalution to fit him into a different scheme than he had played in.

 

I am not saying Fangio had no impact. But Talent > Coaching always and forever in the NFL. Coaching matters. Talent matters more.

I’m not saying that talent doesn’t matter more than coaching.

 

What I’m saying is that these teams HAD largely the same talent. This is obvious. Philly had the same DL. They had guys like Nakobe Dean and Nolan Smitn who were high draft picks that were unplayable prior to 2024.

 

Virtually every Philly defender had a better 2024 than 2023. But it wasn’t because of coaching. Okay, sure.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, RoscoeParrish said:

I’m not saying that talent doesn’t matter more than coaching.

 

What I’m saying is that these teams HAD largely the same talent. This is obvious. Philly had the same DL. They had guys like Nakobe Dean and Nolan Smitn who were high draft picks that were unplayable prior to 2024.

 

Virtually every Philly defender had a better 2024 than 2023. But it wasn’t because of coaching. Okay, sure.

 

Vic Fangio is a much better DC than Sean Desai. That is obvious. And Desai was definitely part of the regression between their very good D of 2022 and their bad D of 2023. So in that sense yes, of course Fangio made a difference. But the main thing that changed between 2022 and 2023 was their secondary collapsed they couldn't stop anyone in coverage. And the main thing that changed between 2023 and 2024 was they infused the pass D with talent. 3 new guys in the secondary and a coverage linebacker.

[RoscoeParrish]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Vic Fangio is a much better DC than Sean Desai. That is obvious. And Desai was definitely part of the regression between their very good D of 2022 and their bad D of 2023. So in that sense yes, of course Fangio made a difference. But the main thing that changed between 2022 and 2023 was their secondary collapsed they couldn't stop anyone in coverage. And the main thing that changed between 2023 and 2024 was they infused the pass D with talent. 3 new guys in the secondary and a coverage linebacker.

Well then, we got our “talent infusion.” So we should be very good this year in the postseason, right

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, RoscoeParrish said:

Well then, we got our “talent infusion.” So we should be very good this year in the postseason, right

 

If that talent works out as well as the Eagles guys, definitely!

[RoscoeParrish]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

If that talent works out as well as the Eagles guys, definitely!

Feels like dirty pool to me.

 

If the guys don’t play well, we’ll just say they aren’t talented. It’s not anything else.

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, RoscoeParrish said:

Feels like dirty pool to me.

 

If the guys don’t play well, we’ll just say they aren’t talented. It’s not anything else.

 

If it is something else that will get proven in the long run. Talent always wins in the NFL. There are guys who get misused and then go somewhere else and excel. I don't think that has happened a ton with guys the Bills have had. Poona Ford is one. I don't think the Bills maximised him in his one year here. But there are not a ton of others. In actual fact quite the opposite. There are numermous guys - EJ Gaines, Dane Jackson, Jordan Phillips etc who could never replicate their success here in other stops.

[st pete gogolak]

If the Bills had won a SB over the last five years (or even appeared in one), this topic is moot.  Because we’ve been so painfully close, it’s easy to point to Beane’s misses as the reason (Ford instead of AJ Brown or Metcalf, Basham instead of Humphrey, KC jumping us for McDuffie and we whiff on Elam, he’ll even Oliver instead of Wilkins, Simmons or Lawrence).  But as been pointed out many, many times every GM, even Veach and Rosman have misses.  The teams referenced here - SF, KC and Philly - have all had huge misses. SF picking Lance #3, Philly Reagor over Jefferson or Higgins, KC with numerous whiffs over the years.  If we win or even reach the SB this year, all this goes away.