Papal Conclave

[Joe Ferguson forever]

From a PBS interview last night.  I couldn't agree more.

 

Rev. Thomas Reese:

Well, of course, he's been elected pope for the whole world, so he's got to deal with all the world, not just the United States.

But because of his knowledge of the United States, I think he will be focused on it. What can we do to reach out to young people? How can we make the church more inviting? Pope Francis was wonderful, but the problem was everybody said to themselves, gee, I wish I had Pope Francis as my pastor.

And then they would go into their parish and they often didn't find Pope Francis. So I think that what Pope Leo has to do is help the clergy in the United States get on board with the vision that Pope Francis has, and now the vision that Pope Leo is bringing to the church.

[Roundybout]

55 minutes ago, K D said:

The guy who represents an entity that throughout history has been corrupt, power hungry, started wars, hoarded riches, covered up sexual and physical abuses, telling others that if you don't go through them then you are not going to heaven is pretty arrogant and funny. In fact Jesus says that HE is the only way to heaven (John 14:6). He didn't say anything about the Vatican which is a completely separate entity created by the Romans aka the people who killed Jesus and the disciples and thousands of the early christians. If anything there is way more evidence that the Vatican has hijacked the name of Jesus for their own financial gain and is likely not the way to heaven but that is for people to decide for themselves "in their own way."

Well if you want to get into it, Revelation 21:2 states that Jesus is the “bridegroom” of the Church, consisting of all believers. 
 

The Vatican is simply the See of Rome. While it’s true that early Christian’s were persecuted, the Church still existed. Peter was the first Pope. 

[K D]

7 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

Well if you want to get into it, Revelation 21:2 states that Jesus is the “bridegroom” of the Church, consisting of all believers. 
 

The Vatican is simply the See of Rome. While it’s true that early Christian’s were persecuted, the Church still existed. Peter was the first Pope. 

According to themselves they say they are a direct continuation of the church started by Peter 500 years earlier and had otherwise zero connection other than they used to kill and persecute all of the early christians.

 

Source: Trust me bro

 

Romans be like...

[Joe Ferguson forever]

20 minutes ago, K D said:

According to themselves they say they are a direct continuation of the church started by Peter 500 years earlier and had otherwise zero connection other than they used to kill and persecute all of the early christians.

 

Source: Trust me bro

 

Romans be like...

I don't trust you as far as I can throw you.  Why would anybody?  It's like trusting trump.

 

In more good news, it appears Pope Leo is a real Republican

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14693185/new-pope-robert-prevost-voting-history-conservative-liberal.html

Edited 8 hours ago by Joe Ferguson forever

[K D]

Just now, Joe Ferguson forever said:

I don't trust you as far as I can throw you.  Why would anybody?  It's like trusting trump.

Good, don't put your trust in man put your trust in God! We are slightly smarter than monkeys. We don't know crap about the universe.

 

Especially some guy that went to Villanova. They haven't been relevant since the old days of the Big East! And a Cubs fan? That's like being a Jets fan yuck

[ComradeKayAdams]

14 hours ago, Joe Ferguson forever said:

You can't win em all😎

He'll have a tough row to hoe.  The world's a mess.  God, please help him!

 

Yup, that’s a promising initial list. Christian precepts do tend to align well with modern American progressive politics. In present-day America, Jesus would far more likely be seen wearing a Bernie Bro t-shirt than he would be seen sporting a red MAGA hat. Single-payer health care? Yes. Universal human rights? Absolutely. Concern for the poor? You got it! Labor exploitation? I mean…”thou shalt not steal,” right? American imperialism? “Love thy neighbor,” no? Environmental stewardship? Respect the Garden of Eden!!

 

Something is conspicuously missing on that list, though…

 

Pope Leo XIV needs to be as vociferously opposed to Israel’s genocide in Gaza as was the late Pope Francis. If he isn’t, I don’t think the Catholic Church can survive much longer as any sort of serious international moral authority. You can’t showcase your morality as your entire business model and then NOT take a definitive stance against collective punishment and ethnic cleansing!!

 

Many here, of course, will (correctly) point to all the historical corruption and all the controversies the Catholic Church has already endured. Its woefully inadequate stance against the Holocaust will surely be mentioned, too. I would then just reply that the landscape of ethical expectations from human civilization is vastly different in the twenty-first century than it was over the previous two millennia. Also, in the specific case of the Holocaust, I believe Pope Pius XII was genuinely afraid of Hitler invading the Vatican in retaliation (not that this excuses the cowardice, but you get my point…).

 

PPP Subforum: “Wait a minute, Commie Kay…aren’t you an ex-Catholic and current atheist? Why do you care about Catholic Church affairs?”

Me: “I care because the Pope is still an enormously influential public figure and is capable of galvanizing hundreds of millions into positive action.”

PPP Subforum: “But wait…where do you get your morals from??”

Me: “Secular humanism and the Golden Rule, more or less.”

PPP Subforum: “But wait…how do you think the universe came about, if not from God?”

Me: “Net-zero-energy quantum gravitational fluctuations, with a currently poorly understood conception of emergent spacetime.”

PPP Subforum: “You have been an absolute conversational DELIGHT, Ms. Adams, on this fine Friday morning.”

Me: “Thank you! Go Bills!”

PPP Subforum: “Yes! Go Bills, indeed.”

[K D]

11 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said:

In more good news, it appears Pope Leo is a real Republican

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14693185/new-pope-robert-prevost-voting-history-conservative-liberal.html

Wow it says he voted in 2024! So he either voted for Trump (his Twitter would say otherwise) or he voted for Kamala who supports trans and abortion rights! That's actually really scandalous. They said Joe Biden shouldn't take communion for his support of abortion. How about the actual Pope voting for it?!!

[K D]

6 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Yup, that’s a promising initial list. Christian precepts do tend to align well with modern American progressive politics. In present-day America, Jesus would far more likely be seen wearing a Bernie Bro t-shirt than he would be seen sporting a red MAGA hat. Single-payer health care? Yes. Universal human rights? Absolutely. Concern for the poor? You got it! Labor exploitation? I mean…”thou shalt not steal,” right? American imperialism? “Love thy neighbor,” no? Environmental stewardship? Respect the Garden of Eden!!

 

Something is conspicuously missing on that list, though…

 

Pope Leo XIV needs to be as vociferously opposed to Israel’s genocide in Gaza as was the late Pope Francis. If he isn’t, I don’t think the Catholic Church can survive much longer as any sort of serious international moral authority. You can’t showcase your morality as your entire business model and then NOT take a definitive stance against collective punishment and ethnic cleansing!!

 

Many here, of course, will (correctly) point to all the historical corruption and all the controversies the Catholic Church has already endured. Its woefully inadequate stance against the Holocaust will surely be mentioned, too. I would then just reply that the landscape of ethical expectations from human civilization is vastly different in the twenty-first century than it was over the previous two millennia. Also, in the specific case of the Holocaust, I believe Pope Pius XII was genuinely afraid of Hitler invading the Vatican in retaliation (not that this excuses the cowardice, but you get my point…).

 

PPP Subforum: “Wait a minute, Commie Kay…aren’t you an ex-Catholic and current atheist? Why do you care about Catholic Church affairs?”

Me: “I care because the Pope is still an enormously influential public figure and is capable of galvanizing hundreds of millions into positive action.”

PPP Subforum: “But wait…where do you get your morals from??”

Me: “Secular humanism and the Golden Rule, more or less.”

PPP Subforum: “But wait…how do you think the universe came about, if not from God?”

Me: “Net-zero-energy quantum gravitational fluctuations, with a currently poorly understood conception of emergent spacetime.”

PPP Subforum: “You have been an absolute conversational DELIGHT, Ms. Adams, on this fine Friday morning.”

Me: “Thank you! Go Bills!”

PPP Subforum: “Yes! Go Bills, indeed.”

You think Jesus would be for killing babies and mutilating the genitals of children? That's hilarious. Jesus would walk amongst the progressives (sinners) and show them they can repent and find true happiness in heaven. He might even do some miracles to cure their mental problems. Jesus preached to the sinners because that's who needed him. He didn't support them or vote for them. What a weird understanding of the Bible you have.

[Big Blitz]

This is not Francis 2.0

 

He’s extremely humble.  This is a good sign.  
 

I’m cautiously optimistic we’re going to have a staunchly Catholic pope that will provide the clarity on the sins (crisis) of the day that Francis brought too much confusion to.  

 

 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Big Blitz

[Big Blitz]

 

 

[Big Blitz]

Francis first mass was in Italian 

 

 

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

4 hours ago, K D said:

You think Jesus would be for killing babies and mutilating the genitals of children?

 

Well, if I were a Calvinist/Reformed Protestant, the answer to that question is an unequivocal yes.

 

As God decreed all things in eternity past, according to the good pleasure of his will and for his glory as stated in the Westminster Confession of Faith. Jesus is the Triune God, unless you're some kind of Partialist/Modalist/Arian heretic.

 

If you don't like that, then I'd point you to Romans 9:20-21, Isaiah 45: 9-12, and Jeremiah 18: 1-6.

 

 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Coffeesforclosers

[Joe Ferguson forever]

11 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Well, if I were a Calvinist/Reformed Protestant, the answer to that question is an unequivocal yes.

 

As God decreed all things in eternity past, according to the good pleasure of his will and for his glory as stated in the Westminster Confession of Faith. Jesus is the Triune God, unless you're some kind of Partialist/Modalist/Arian heretic.

 

If you don't like that, then I'd point you to Romans 9:20-21, Isaiah 45: 9-12, and Jeremiah 18: 1-6.

 

 

 

Not following.  They had eunuchs back then.  I don't believe they're mentioned in the bible.  I think he'd be against both.  But I'm confident he wouldn't tell the Romans how to write their laws.

[sherpa]

7 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said:

Not following.  They had eunuchs back then.  I don't believe they're mentioned in the bible. 

 

They are mentioned.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

5 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Yup, that’s a promising initial list. Christian precepts do tend to align well with modern American progressive politics. In present-day America, Jesus would far more likely be seen wearing a Bernie Bro t-shirt than he would be seen sporting a red MAGA hat. Single-payer health care? Yes. Universal human rights? Absolutely. Concern for the poor? You got it! Labor exploitation? I mean…”thou shalt not steal,” right? American imperialism? “Love thy neighbor,” no? Environmental stewardship? Respect the Garden of Eden!!

 

Something is conspicuously missing on that list, though…

 

Pope Leo XIV needs to be as vociferously opposed to Israel’s genocide in Gaza as was the late Pope Francis. If he isn’t, I don’t think the Catholic Church can survive much longer as any sort of serious international moral authority. You can’t showcase your morality as your entire business model and then NOT take a definitive stance against collective punishment and ethnic cleansing!!

 

Many here, of course, will (correctly) point to all the historical corruption and all the controversies the Catholic Church has already endured. Its woefully inadequate stance against the Holocaust will surely be mentioned, too. I would then just reply that the landscape of ethical expectations from human civilization is vastly different in the twenty-first century than it was over the previous two millennia. Also, in the specific case of the Holocaust, I believe Pope Pius XII was genuinely afraid of Hitler invading the Vatican in retaliation (not that this excuses the cowardice, but you get my point…).

 

PPP Subforum: “Wait a minute, Commie Kay…aren’t you an ex-Catholic and current atheist? Why do you care about Catholic Church affairs?”

Me: “I care because the Pope is still an enormously influential public figure and is capable of galvanizing hundreds of millions into positive action.”

PPP Subforum: “But wait…where do you get your morals from??”

Me: “Secular humanism and the Golden Rule, more or less.”

PPP Subforum: “But wait…how do you think the universe came about, if not from God?”

Me: “Net-zero-energy quantum gravitational fluctuations, with a currently poorly understood conception of emergent spacetime.”

PPP Subforum: “You have been an absolute conversational DELIGHT, Ms. Adams, on this fine Friday morning.”

Me: “Thank you! Go Bills!”

PPP Subforum: “Yes! Go Bills, indeed.”

Interesting. I think Jesus sees  Sanders as false idol and one of the Pharahos wicked henchmen.   Probably stays completely clear of the political landscape and sees DC and its occupants generally in a Soddom/Gomorrah vein. 
 

While we disagree there, your imaginary dialogue likely played out as you have laid it out above.  I can def see that. 

[sherpa]

21 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

 

For the record that was never a “thing” endorsed by the Church.  
 

A few corrupt medieval bishops did that.   
'

Just fyi.   

 

Really?

And it wasn't a "few bishops."

The money was sent to Rome to pay for St. Peters.

Luther simply challenged the practice, and they put a hit on him.

 

I can specifically remember the issue in my Catholic education centuries later.

 

What about today?

     "The church offers indulgences under specific conditions. Besides visiting designated holy sites such as the National Shrine of Saint Frances Xavier Cabrini during set periods of time and for special occasions, Catholics can receive indulgences by reciting a set of approved prayers or making charitable contributions. The 1999 “Manual of Indulgences” provides guidelines for church-sanctioned practices.

 

     "The church teaches that even when a person has been ritually forgiven, God’s justice still requires some punishment to purge the sin – at the very least, suffering and miseries on Earth. Moreover, the church teaches, these hardships are to be welcomed because they purify the soul and heal the stain of original sin."

 

Invention

 

None of this is Biblical. 

 

 

     

 

     

 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

1 hour ago, sherpa said:

 

They are mentioned.

cool.  tell me what it says about them.

 

I mean the purpose was too stop guards from banging the king's concubines, right.  They were usually slaves.  Lot's of slaves mentioned in the bible, so maybe.  So did someone speak out agains eunuchism?  I think nowadays everyone thinks being a eunuch is undesirable.  I guess there's probably a few people on the periphery who might find it appealing some how.  As long as they don't bother me.....

Edited 2 hours ago by Joe Ferguson forever

[sherpa]

4 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said:

cool.  tell me what it says about them.

 

I mean the purpose was too stop guards from banging the king's concubines, right.  They were usually slaves.  Lot's of slaves mentioned in the bible so maybe.  So did someone speak out agains eunuchism?

 

I really get a kick out of you.

You claim they're not mentioned in the Bible, yet the first Gentile to become Christian was a eunuch.

Read Acts 8 vs 26.

 

Read the story of Esther, which is so interesting it should be made into a movie.

 

A personal question.

Do you ever research things you post?

 

 

 

[Big Blitz]

31 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

Really?

And it wasn't a "few bishops."

The money was sent to Rome to pay for St. Peters.

Luther simply challenged the practice, and they put a hit on him.

 

I can specifically remember the issue in my Catholic education centuries later.

 

What about today?

     "The church offers indulgences under specific conditions. Besides visiting designated holy sites such as the National Shrine of Saint Frances Xavier Cabrini during set periods of time and for special occasions, Catholics can receive indulgences by reciting a set of approved prayers or making charitable contributions. The 1999 “Manual of Indulgences” provides guidelines for church-sanctioned practices.

 

     "The church teaches that even when a person has been ritually forgiven, God’s justice still requires some punishment to purge the sin – at the very least, suffering and miseries on Earth. Moreover, the church teaches, these hardships are to be welcomed because they purify the soul and heal the stain of original sin."

 

Invention

 

None of this is Biblical. 

 

 

     

 

     

 

 

The (few) corrupt medieval bishops were telling people if they just paid they would receive the indulgence. 
 

That’s not how they work.  
 

But that became the historical “lede” if you will.  
 

There was no church doctrine that said just pay and your sins will be forgiven.  
 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Big Blitz

[sherpa]

1 minute ago, Big Blitz said:

 

The (few) corrupt medieval bishops were telling people if they just paid they would receive the indulgence. 
 

That’s not how they work.  
 

But that became the historical “lede” if you will.  
 

There was no church doctrine that said just pay and your sins will be forgiven.  
 

 

 

I get what your claim is, but it was absolutely church doctrine then, as Rome was attempting to fund St Peters.

I provided a link that was from 1999, and it outlined the practice, obviously still in place per doctrine.

It may have changed from money to other things, but there is no denying it.

 

I am very uncomfortable pointing these things out, as the Catholic Church has been a far more positive influence on humanity throughout their existence, and schools/hospitals and charity and mission work has benefitted our country and others immensely.

 

But....if the issue is theology, inventing stuff puts it on very thin ice that the rest of Christiandom does not agree with, and is absolutely not Biblically supported.