Wide Receiver Train Full Speed Ahead- CHOO CHOO!

[LEBills]

21 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Gotcha and all good.  And don't mistake me either, I was pounding the drum hard all off season to draft Donte Thornton, who not only had elite size and speed that is more than rare, but was the kind of story and character that screams Buffalo.  He went one pick before us though to the Raiders even though we traded up in the 4th.  But honestly, this was not a good draft to be forcing the issue at WR.  

 

And quite honestly, we are very young as it is at WR with young talent in Shakir (who I don't think has peaked yet), Keon, Samuel, Palmer, and Kincaid (whose job is to catch passes).  So it's not like we are devoid of young talent either and Moore is still just 25 as well with as much potential or more than anyone we could have taken day 3, especially this season.

 

I just think Beane staying true to his board and taking the highest graded prospect rather than reaching for a lesser graded WR in a weak WR class was the correct approach.  Especially given the state of our offense and defense respectively.

 

And its fair to have differing opinions, and I respect that, and no issue with anything you have said really.  But the meltdown by others, over exaggeration of the gravity of the situation, etc is not only way over the top, but its being beaten to death the same posters and dragged all over this board to insufferable lengths.  

If you are excited for Moore and Palmer, I’m excited for you. I have very low expectations. History shows that most unrestricted free agents don’t improve on their best seasons in their first contract when going to a new team. So I’m hoping Shakir, Keon, and Kincaid can improve on last year as I think they have the best likelihood. Just wish we had more of those lottery tickets over the past few years. But it’s all spilled milk at this point, just hope it gets prioritized in the future by Beane.

Edited 18 hours ago by LEBills

[Mikey152]

26 minutes ago, LEBills said:

If you are excited for Moore and Palmer, I’m excited for you. I have very low expectations. History shows that most unrestricted free agents don’t improve on their best seasons in their first contract when going to a new team. So I’m hoping Shakir, Keon, and Kincaid can improve on last year as I think they have the best likelihood. Just wish we had more of those lottery tickets over the past few years. But it’s all spilled milk at this point, just hope it gets prioritized in the future by Beane.

 

Moore is interesting...

 

I don't have high hopes or anything, especially after last season and how all those castoffs panned out.  That said, if you throw on some ole miss tape, it is hard to understand how he busted so hard (I mean, he broke AJ Browns school records and had Antonio Brown comps coming out). I think the hope is he played for the Jets and Browns...talk about dumpster fires. If it's because he is a crappy person, oh well I guess.

 

The problem with Moore is he feels redundant to Shakir (and Samuel to a lesser extent). 

 

Edited 17 hours ago by Mikey152

[LEBills]

10 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

 

Moore is interesting...

 

I don't have high hopes or anything, especially after last season and how all those castoffs panned out.  That said, if you throw on some ole miss tape, it is hard to understand how he busted so hard (I mean, he broke AJ Browns school records and had Antonio Brown comps coming out). I think the hope is he played for the Jets and Browns...talk about dumpster fires. If it's because he is a crappy person, oh well I guess.

 

I’ll be rooting for him but I expect very little. He really is a slot player so we will see if Brady can use him Shakir, Samuel and Kincaid all together when they all operate in  the middle of the field. 

[Mikey152]

3 minutes ago, LEBills said:

I’ll be rooting for him but I expect very little. He really is a slot player so we will see if Brady can use him Shakir, Samuel and Kincaid all together when they all operate in  the middle of the field. 

It's funny, because he is kind of a combination of Shakir and Samuel...Fast (but stiff) like Samuel and good ball skills in traffic like Shakir. Because of that, I think he is probably a better flanker than either of those 2 despite the size.

[Alphadawg7]

46 minutes ago, LEBills said:

If you are excited for Moore and Palmer, I’m excited for you. I have very low expectations.

 

I didn't use the words excited...I said on paper we are better today than when we last left the field.  Replacing the Ghost of Cooper and I only Block Mack Hollins with Palmer and Moore adds more of what we were missing to the arsenal. 

 

46 minutes ago, LEBills said:

History shows that most unrestricted free agents don’t improve on their best seasons in their first contract when going to a new team.

 

Mistake number 1 is focusing on whether they will improve their stats from their top seasons.  That is not what our offense is nor is it the roles in passing game they will play...we are an offense that has 5 WRs, 2 TEs, and 3 RBs right now involved in our passing game.  Guys here play roles, that is how our offense is built.  Palmer and especially Moore are not going to see the targets necessary to likely best their career highs without injuries playing a significant role in that.  And that isn't a function of "could they with Allen", that is a function of their role in this system and the design of this offense to spread the ball around in true everybody eats fashion.  

 

So no disrespect, what history shows is irrelevant to why they are here, what a successful season will be for them, etc.  Especially, Moore who had his best season when he saw a lot of snaps...he is 5th on the depth chart here in just the WR room alone in an offense that also features 2 TE's and 3 RB's as targets in our passing game too.  

 

None of that would be different for some day 3 WR we would have drafted either.  

 

46 minutes ago, LEBills said:

So I’m hoping Shakir, Keon, and Kincaid can improve on last year as I think they have the best likelihood. Just wish we had more of those lottery tickets over the past few years. But it’s all spilled milk at this point, just hope it gets prioritized in the future by Beane.

 

I agree with you that our young nucleus of Shakir, Keon and Kincaid are going to really determine how our offense fares this season.  Keon is putting in the work this offseason, which is encouraging.  Kincaid will be coming in healthy after battling all year with playing with injuries, and Shakir I don't think has peaked yet, but even if he has, he is a pretty darn good player for Josh and this offense.  

 

And again, I am all about grabbing lottery tickets for the future...but in a weak WR draft reaching for one over a better player prospect would be a mistake, especially for a guy who will likely contribute very little this year at the bottom of our WR bench and even further back in the targets peking order.  Meanwhile someone like Deone Walker can play meaningful minutes this year and contribute to help our defense get off the field once or twice more a game which will significantly help this team more than some end of the bench lottery ticket WR.  

 

[Pete]

20 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I didn't use the words excited...I said on paper we are better today than when we last left the field.  Replacing the Ghost of Cooper and I only Block Mack Hollins with Palmer and Moore adds more of what we were missing to the arsenal. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

35 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

It's funny, because he is kind of a combination of Shakir and Samuel...Fast (but stiff) like Samuel and good ball skills in traffic like Shakir. Because of that, I think he is probably a better flanker than either of those 2 despite the size.

 

I really liked signing Moore...but his peking order in expected targets is probably down in the 7th or 8th range at best.  He is already entering as WR5 behind Keon, Shakir, Palmer, and Samuel...but you still have targets going to our TE's and RB's too.    

 

I do think he will bring some value to the team though when they want to get some more speed on the field and he will get some chances to make some plays for us, I just don't expect a meaningful stat line by years end based on his expected snap count unless injuries get him on the field more.  But he is good depth for us, and if he shows more than Samuel did, its not out the question to over take him on the depth chart either.  

[LEBills]

18 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I didn't use the words excited...I said on paper we are better today than when we last left the field.  Replacing the Ghost of Cooper and I only Block Mack Hollins with Palmer and Moore adds more of what we were missing to the arsenal. 

 

 

Mistake number 1 is focusing on whether they will improve their stats from their top seasons.  That is not what our offense is nor is it the roles in passing game they will play...we are an offense that has 5 WRs, 2 TEs, and 3 RBs right now involved in our passing game.  Guys here play roles, that is how our offense is built.  Palmer and especially Moore are not going to see the targets necessary to likely best their career highs without injuries playing a significant role in that.  And that isn't a function of "could they with Allen", that is a function of their role in this system and the design of this offense to spread the ball around in true everybody eats fashion.  

 

So no disrespect, what history shows is irrelevant to why they are here, what a successful season will be for them, etc.  Especially, Moore who had his best season when he saw a lot of snaps...he is 5th on the depth chart here in just the WR room alone in an offense that also features 2 TE's and 3 RB's as targets in our passing game too.  

 

None of that would be different for some day 3 WR we would have drafted either.  

 

 

I agree with you that our young nucleus of Shakir, Keon and Kincaid are going to really determine how our offense fares this season.  Keon is putting in the work this offseason, which is encouraging.  Kincaid will be coming in healthy after battling all year with playing with injuries, and Shakir I don't think has peaked yet, but even if he has, he is a pretty darn good player for Josh and this offense.  

 

And again, I am all about grabbing lottery tickets for the future...but in a weak WR draft reaching for one over a better player prospect would be a mistake, especially for a guy who will likely contribute very little this year at the bottom of our WR bench and even further back in the targets peking order.  Meanwhile someone like Deone Walker can play meaningful minutes this year and contribute to help our defense get off the field once or twice more a game which will significantly help this team more than some end of the bench lottery ticket WR.  

 

If you say so. I’ve seen a lot of Palmer and Moore these last few years. Whether it is stats or just filling a role, I have low expectations.

 

Shakir is a stud. Sign James Cook. Draft some receivers next year Beane.

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

 

 

Please don't share some one off highlight on Mack like you have been some champion of him after you slammed him for almost a year before accepting he could also catch.  I was one of his biggest supporters and defenders here going back to when we signed him during the offseason when you all said he was trash and I said he is a better WR than you think and he is an excellent blocker.  I said all off season he was going to play a lot of snaps while you all melted down over him.  

 

But make no mistake about it, blocking is his specialty and best attribute and Palmer is without a doubt a better WR in the passing game by pretty much every metric.  

[BADOLBILZ]

7 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Facts:  Highest scoring team in the AFC in both the regular season and post season...and 16th greatest offense in NFL history.

 

 

Facts?

 

The Lions scored more points in the regular season......2.3 more per game......which is a significant difference.

 

The Eagles scored the most points in NFL postseason history.....obviously?  How were you confused that the Bills scored more?   They put up 95 in the NFCCG and SB alone.

 

So those were not facts you posted.

 

So here are the facts:

 

The Bills were second in the NFL in scoring last season.

 

They were 1st in fewest points allowed in 2021 and second in 2022.

 

Also another further clarification for things you wrote subsequently.....

 

The 2024 Bills weren't the 16 highest scoring offense of all time.    There have been at least 16 higher ppg scoring teams just since 2000.   Including the 2015 Panthers that nobody remembers as an offensive juggernaut.

 

There is no need for grand hyperbole.  

 

They have at times been a great regular season offense and a great regular season defense under McBeane.

 

They've never been either when they've advanced beyond the divisional round in the postseason under McBeane.

 

 

 

Edited 13 hours ago by BADOLBILZ

[Alphadawg7]

7 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Facts:  Highest scoring team in the AFC in both the regular season and post season...and 16th greatest offense in NFL history.

 

 

5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Facts?

 

The Lions scored more points in the regular season......2.3 more per game......which is a significant difference.

 

The Eagles scored the most points in NFL postseason history.....obviously?  How were you confused that the Bills scored more?   They put up 95 in the NFCCG and SB alone.

 

So those were not facts you posted.

 

So here are the facts:

 

The Bills were second in the NFL in scoring last season.

 

They were 1st in fewest points allowed in 2021 and second in 2022.

 

 

I guess you missed the part where I said "AFC".  So maybe read the posts correctly before you incorrectly refute what is the actual facts sport 😉

[BADOLBILZ]

9 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

 

I guess you missed the part where I said "AFC".  So maybe read the posts correctly before you incorrectly refute what is the actual facts sport 😉

 

 

 

And like I said........the 2024 Bills were not the 16th best offense all time..........did you mean the 16th best "AFC" offense ever?😂 

[Alphadawg7]

18 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

And like I said........the 2024 Bills were not the 16th best offense all time..........did you mean the 16th best "AFC" offense ever?😂 

 

Oh boy...so let me see...first you dont read the post correctly and incorrectly refute what was the actual facts.  But rather than just chalk that up to a misread goof, you want to still find a way to be right about something...Ok...but except...well...you're not 😬

 

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-highest-scoring-offenses-by-year

 

16th all time.  2024 Lions were number 4 FYI...hence why Bills were #2 despite being the 16th most points all time.  

Bonus fun fact:  Bills scored the most total points in 2024 between reg season and postseason combined, yes more than the SB Champ Eagles.

 

Batting .000% today sport 

 

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Alphadawg7

[RoscoeParrish]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

hence why Bills were #2 despite being the 16th highest PPG all time

That’s not what your link says FWIW.

 

Your link is total points. 

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, RoscoeParrish said:

That’s not what your link says FWIW.

 

Your link is total points. 

 

Yeah sorry typo...hence why I said highest scoring offense, as in points, fixed it so thanks

Edited 13 hours ago by Alphadawg7

[RoscoeParrish]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yeah sorry typo...hence why I said highest scoring offense, as in points.  

I think there may be a flaw in using “total points” when the number of games has changed when deciding “the greatest offenses ever.”

 

The 2024 Bills rank 22nd by PPG.

[BADOLBILZ]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Oh boy...so let me see...first you dont read the post correctly and incorrectly refute what was the actual facts.  But rather than just chalk that up to a misread goof, you want to still find a way to be right about something...Ok...but except...well...you're not 😬

 

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-highest-scoring-offenses-by-year

 

16th all time.  2024 Lions were number 4 FYI...hence why Bills were #2 despite being the 16th most points all time.  

Bonus fun fact:  Bills scored the most total points in 2024 between reg season and postseason combined, yes more than the SB Champ Eagles.

 

Batting .000% today sport 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah you were confused.  

 

You can't compare 16 game seasons to 17 game seasons using bulk points.

 

And since you chose points as the primary data.......it throws the ppg data off as well.  

 

Example........The 1975 Bills also scored 30 points per game(420 with an 8-6 record).

 

They are not listed in the ppg, which falls below 30 when you get to 25th on the data you chose.  

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

5 minutes ago, RoscoeParrish said:

I think there may be a flaw in using “total points” when the number of games has changed when deciding “the greatest offenses ever.”

 

The 2024 Bills rank 22nd by PPG.

 

I mean all the teams in the league are playing on this schedule...and we are talking about in comparison to us and the rest of the league.  And there are only 2 teams since 2020 that have scored more points than the Bills did in 2024 despite all the teams during that span playing the same amount of games.

 

And Bills by PPG are 22nd all time in 2024.  Still historically great.  

 

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

Yeah you were confused.  

 

You can't compare 16 game seasons to 17 game seasons using bulk points.

 

And since you chose points as the primary data.......it throws the ppg data off as well.  

 

Example........The 1975 Bills also scored 30 points per game(420 with an 8-6 record).

 

They are not listed in the ppg, which falls below 30 when you get to 25th on the data you chose.  

 

 

 

2024 Bills were the 22nd highest scoring team based on PPG in NFL history.  So yeah...still batting .000% today sport

Edited 12 hours ago by Alphadawg7

[RoscoeParrish]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

And Bills by PPG are 22nd all time in 2024.  Still historically great

Interestingly enough, I changed it in statmuse and the Bills don’t appear at 22.

 

So I think the reality is they may be far lower.

 

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-highest-ppg-by-year

[BADOLBILZ]

6 minutes ago, RoscoeParrish said:

I think there may be a flaw in using “total points” when the number of games has changed when deciding “the greatest offenses ever.”

 

The 2024 Bills rank 22nd by PPG.

 

Well the lowest scoring 16 game schedule team on that statmuse data is 31.9 points per game............so I don't know if it's even 22nd.

 

And everything is relative.  2024 was the 5th highest scoring ppg season since the AFL/NFL merger.   

 

If you weren't the #1 scoring team in your season don't tell me how all-time great you are.

 

Don't need that hyperbole.   They were very good.

 

Their defense was also that good in 2021 and 2022.

 

Point being........gotta' be that good deep into the playoffs for it to matter much historically.