eric moulds

[dave mcbride]

Dammit, McBride, whose side are you on?  Let me make the following points:

 

1.  I don't think last year's offense can fairly be called "significantly better" or "more functional" than 2003's, esp. if you adjust for the fact that we had McGahee last year -- ie the passing offense was equally bad both years.  The play-calling was much more intelligent in 2004, but the execution at QB was equally bad (here are Bledsoe's #s:  http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1041).

 

2.  Moulds had more TDs, more big plays and more yards last year than 2003 -- so even though he had a slightly (0.3) lower ypc, I don't think you can say he declined every year with DB (although to be fair he missed 3 games in 2003 with the injury and was certainly not 100% when he returned).  Although his #s were better in 2002, that was when the entire offense was on fire and putting up 40+ ppg for half the season.

 

3.  Moulds is 32.  He's not going to be as fast now as at age 25.  But he's still a force of nature out there.  He's among the top handful of WRs in the league as far as size and strength.  He doesn't get outmuscled or out-positioned for balls.  He has to be accounted for on every play, which opens things up for Evans.  They complement each other very well.  Hopefully, Roscoe will be able to benefit from this as well to a much greater degree than Reed has.

 

4.  If we could only have one WR currently on our roster for this coming season, whom would you choose?  Is there any doubt that it's Moulds?  Evans by himself would have the same production that Peerless has had in Atlanta as the #1 WR.

 

5.  If your point is that Moulds isn't as great a deep threat on post patterns as Randy Moss (or for that matter Lee Evans) is, well, OK.  But that's like saying Tom Brady doesn't throw the deep ball on post routes -- when he has all the time he needs -- as well as Bledsoe does.  It's only part of the job requirements.  Moulds is still immensely valuable to the team and IMHO either the best or 2nd-best player on the offense.  When we NEED a first down, we are looking for Eric, and he will go up in traffic, come down with it and drag the defender as far as he needs to.

 

6.  Bottom line:  if JP is good, Moulds will have a big year.  His #s aren't going to be as good as TO's -- but TO doesn't have anyone as good as Evans on the other side.  And would anyone want a jerk like TO instead of Moulds anyway?

 

Go Bills.

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neil - i agree with almost all of your points, and i'd certainly take him over evans. my point is that in one category - speed - he's lost something, and that has taken him out of the elite echelon that he used to be in. up through 2002, he was in my opinion one of the best half dozen or so receivers in the league, along with terrell owens, marvin harrison, randy moss, jimmy smith, isaac bruce, and torry holt. he's not in that group anymore, but is still a very good player whose strength, size, leaping ability, competitiveness, and team play make him a real asset worth the money the bills are paying him.

 

as for 2003 v. 2004, bear in mind that moulds missed 3 games in 2003 and that his 5 tds in 2004 all came very early in the season. i don't think he caught a td in the last 10 games.

 

as for bledsoe, i'm glad he's gone. but his one inarguable strength is throwing intermediate to deep passes (20-30 yards) very well. after moulds was hurt in 03, he had virtually no one who could run past dbs. moulds (due to injury), reed, and shaw were all too slow.

[nfreeman]

neil - i agree with almost all of your points, and i'd certainly take him over evans. my point is that in one category - speed - he's lost something, and that has taken him out of the elite echelon that he used to be in. up through 2002, he was in my opinion one of the best half dozen or so receivers in the league, along with terrell owens, marvin harrison, randy moss, jimmy smith, isaac bruce, and torry holt. he's not in that group anymore, but is still a very good player whose strength, size, leaping ability, competitiveness, and team play make him a real asset worth the money the bills are paying him. 

 

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I think Moulds is still top half-dozen, but that is admittedly in terms of the overall package -- ie attitude counts. The question in my mind is not who would be better for one game but who do I want as a member of this team. Therefore I don't include TO or Moss in the top half-dozen because I think their destructive tendencies take them out of the group of WRs I'd rather have than Moulds.

 

Moulds was #10 in receptions and #22 in receiving yards last year. Here are the guys ahead of him in catches:

 

1. Tony Gonzales -- a TE

2. Derrick Mason -- TN 96 1168 12.2 7 37 -- solid and productive player and has been for years. Still, TN has been lousy for a few years and they let him go in free agency.

3. Chad Johnson CIN 95 1274 13.4 9 53 -- an elite player; I couldn't argue if you put him ahead of Moulds.

4. Joe Horn NO 94 1399 14.9 11 57 -- same

5. Torry Holt STL 94 1372 14.6 10 75 -- very good player, but numbers inflated due to system. I wouldn't trade Moulds for him.

6. Muhsin Muhammad CAR 93 1405 15.1 16 51 -- elite player

7. Laveranues Coles WAS 90 950 10.6 1 45 -- very good player; I wouldn't trade Moulds for him.

8. Javon Walker GB 89 1382 15.5 12 79 -- only one good year.

9. Isaac Bruce STL 89 1292 14.5 6 56 -- elite player but also has benefitted from system.

10. Eric Moulds BUF 88 1043 11.9 5 49

 

 

Here are the guys ahead of him in yards:

 

1 Muhsin Muhammad CAR 93 1405 15.1 16 51

2 Joe Horn NO 94 1399 14.9 11 57

3 Javon Walker GB 89 1382 15.5 12 79

4 Torry Holt STL 94 1372 14.6 10 75

5 Isaac Bruce STL 89 1292 14.5 6 56

6 Chad Johnson CIN 95 1274 13.4 9 53

7 Tony Gonzalez KC 102 1258 12.3 7 32

8 Drew Bennett TEN 80 1247 15.6 11 48 -- one good year

9 Reggie Wayne IND 77 1210 15.7 12 71 -- a good player but not as good as Moulds.

10 Donald Driver GB 84 1208 14.4 9 50 -- one good year

11 Terrell Owens PHI 77 1200 15.6 14 59 -- no thanks

12 Darrell Jackson SEA 87 1199 13.8 7 56 -- comparable to Moulds

13 Michael Clayton TB 80 1193 14.9 7 75 -- one good year on a lousy team

14 Jimmy Smith JAC 74 1172 15.8 6 65 -- comparable to Moulds

15 Derrick Mason TEN 96 1168 12.2 7 37

16 Rod Smith DEN 79 1144 14.5 7 85 -- comparable to Moulds

17 Andre Johnson HOU 79 1142 14.5 6 54 -- one solid & one good year on a lousy team

18 Marvin Harrison IND 86 1113 12.9 15 59 -- a very good player but benefits from system and QB. I wouldn't trade Moulds for him

19 Eddie Kennison KC 62 1086 17.5 8 70 -- Moulds is better

20 Ashley Lelie DEN 54 1084 20.1 7 58 -- Moulds is better

21 Brandon Stokley IND 68 1077 15.8 10 69 -- Moulds is better

22 Eric Moulds BUF 88 1043 11.9 5 49

 

So -- I think there are only 3 WRs that at this point are clearly better than Moulds -- Horn, Muhammed and Chad Johnson -- and Horn and Muhammed were the only receiving options on lousy teams. Johnson had another good WR on the bengals, but no running back comparable to McGahee.

 

That puts Moulds in the same 2nd-tier category (which is pretty darn close to the 1st tier) as about 7-10 other guys, none of whom I would trade Moulds for. Now, I agree with you that this represents somewhat of a fall-off from his prime, when he was clearly in the top 3 in the league. But nothing lasts forever.

 

Even so, Moulds has lost very little, and you have to account for the fact that the bills have a great running back and a very good #2 receiver who is going to get at least half of the deep routes thrown his way. I wouldn't be surprised, if JP is good and the Bills make the playoffs, for Moulds to have as good a season as any other WR on a playoff team other than the colts and the rams (both of whom play in domes and have pass-happy systems).

 

It all comes back to JP.

[MartyBall4Buffalo]

wait you wouldn't trade moulds for marvin harrison but Mussin Muhammed is an "elite" player?

 

 

 

Sorry I can't agree there. If Muhammed was so "elite" carolina wouldn't have let him go for steve smith who's coming off injury and 2nd year wr keary colbert. muhammed's a nice player but by no means "elite"

 

 

The torry holt thing I'm iffy on. On one hand I think a lot of his stats have to do with the supporting cast and the abundance of really craptastic defenses he plays in the nfc west. One the other hand I think he doesn't get the respect he deserves sometimes. I believe he's the only nfl wr in nfl history to have 5 straight 1300 yard seasons. I wouldn't trade for him just cause I don't like wr's who hit the ground as soon as they catch the ball.

 

 

Say what you want about Owens character issues which I think are overblown, until he does something stupid off the field like pull a gun on someone fail drug tests, bump a cop with his car and try pushing her down a hill, hit his wife, stab or kill someone we should cut the guy some slack. He's an ultra productive wr who on game day will give it 120% unlike Randy Moss who only plays when he feels like it. I'd take TO any day.

 

The point being Moulds is still productive, still a very important cog to the offense, and not someone we can afford to lose as wr's of his caliber are few and far between unless any of you are happy with a wr core of Lee Evans/Josh Reed/Roscoe Parrish and whoever I certinally wouldn't be.

[nfreeman]

wait you wouldn't trade moulds for marvin harrison but Mussin Muhammed is an "elite" player?

Sorry  I can't agree there.  If Muhammed was so "elite" carolina wouldn't have let him go for steve smith who's coming off injury and 2nd year wr keary colbert.  muhammed's a nice player but by no means "elite"

The torry holt thing I'm iffy on.  On one hand  I think a lot of his stats have to do with the supporting cast and the abundance of really craptastic defenses he plays in the nfc west.  One the other hand  I think he doesn't get the respect he deserves sometimes.  I believe he's the only nfl wr in nfl history to have 5 straight 1300 yard seasons.  I wouldn't trade for him just cause I don't like wr's who  hit the ground  as soon as they catch the ball.

Say what you want about Owens character issues which I think are overblown, until he does something stupid off the field like pull a gun on someone fail drug tests, bump a cop with his car and try pushing her down a hill, hit his wife, stab or kill someone we should cut the guy some slack.  He's an ultra productive wr who on game day will give it 120% unlike Randy Moss who only plays when he feels like it.  I'd take TO any day.

 

The point being Moulds is still productive, still a very important cog to the offense, and not someone we can afford to lose as wr's of his caliber are few and far between unless any of you are happy with a wr core of Lee Evans/Josh Reed/Roscoe Parrish and whoever I certinally wouldn't be.

366026[/snapback]

 

 

Good points all, except that I think what TO is doing now -- holding out and criticizing McNabb's play in the Super Bowl -- count as destructive off-the-field issues. Although he's not as much of a jerk as Moss, there is no way these actions can do anything except hurt his team. If he reports to camp and has another huge year without saying or doing anything to cause dissention, I will retract.

[ganesh]

Good points all, except that I think what TO is doing now -- holding out and criticizing McNabb's play in the Super Bowl -- count as destructive off-the-field issues.  Although he's not as much of a jerk as Moss, there is no way these actions can do anything except hurt his team.  If he reports to camp and has another huge year without saying or doing anything to cause dissention, I will retract.

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Peyton Manning got a 35M signing bonus and he accounts for 20% of the

teams salary cap....Do you call him as "hurting the team" ? The guy is

the premier WR in the NFL and he should be paid on par that....When

Peyton can get his money, why can't TO.

[nfreeman]

Peyton Manning got a 35M signing bonus and he accounts for 20% of the

teams salary cap....Do you call him as "hurting the team" ?  The guy is

the premier WR in the NFL and he should be paid on par that....When

Peyton can get his money, why can't TO.

366106[/snapback]

 

 

Peyton didn't sign a contract, take a big bonus and then hold out ONE year later for a better deal. He also didn't blame his team's loss in the playoffs on one of his teammates.

 

I don't have anything against the concept of TO getting paid well. However, what he is doing is way over the line. Nobody put a gun to his head to make him sign the Eagles' contract. He forced his way out of SF AND Baltimore, AND got a big contract with a big signing bonus. You don't get to do that and then renegotiate one year later. No way. You suck it up for at least 2 more big years before you start asking for a raise. And you ABSOLUTELY don't start publicly blaming the super bowl loss on your quarterback.

 

When you're as close to winning the super bowl as the eagles are, you focus on the prize -- like Moulds would. You don't make waves like that. Those 2 actions combined make him, IMHO, a big jerk.

[ganesh]

 

When you're as close to winning the super bowl as the eagles are, you focus on the prize -- like Moulds would.  You don't make waves like that.  Those 2 actions combined make him, IMHO, a big jerk.

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He might be a jerk, a non-team player.....however, he is the best WR today in

the NFL....and he is already 30+....In the NFL there is no such thing as playing

for 2 years before getting your contract.....The guy could be a cripple two

years from now.....You have to make it when you have the chance....Look

at Andre Reed....the guy was an All-Pro receiver...However that one bad

groin tear against the Jets in his contract year and then no one would touch

him and he came back to the bills for much less......

 

The Peyton comparison was only to say in the following context....Every teams

final goal is to win a SB championship.....Whether you make disapring remarks

on your QB or you take so much cap space so that the team cannot build a

championship team around you.....the bottomline is the same...it inhibits you

from winning that super bowl.....When you look at the ultimate goal, then both

Peyton and TO are hurting their team....,

[Fan in Chicago]

The Peyton comparison was only to say in the following context....Every teams

final goal is to win a SB championship.....Whether you make disapring remarks

on your QB or you take so much cap space so that the team cannot build a

championship team around you.....the bottomline is the same...it inhibits you

from winning that super bowl.....When you look at the ultimate goal, then both

Peyton and TO are hurting their team....,

366543[/snapback]

 

While I agree with TO that McNabb choked in the last quarter of the SB (I still believe the game was fixed), doing so publically hurts your team. You can do all the complaining you want but do it to McNabb's face or to Andy Reid. Taking his negative opinions public does nothing to you. Also, a contract is a contract. He signed on last year, did not play most of the season and still expects to be paid better ? Sorry, I don't agree with that.

Peyton Manning on the other hand is a classy individual who delivers through his actions on the field. Never did any information about their (huge) contract negotiation come out in the general press and neither has he ever sulked prior to that time.

[ganesh]

While I agree with TO that McNabb choked in the last quarter of the SB (I still believe the game was fixed), doing so publically hurts your team. You can do all the complaining you want but do it to McNabb's face or to Andy Reid. Taking his negative opinions public does nothing to you. \

366656[/snapback]

 

IT might be his way to bring the better in the players surrounding him.

 

Also, a contract is a contract. He signed on last year, did not play most of the season and still expects to be paid better ? Sorry, I don't agree with that.

366656[/snapback]

 

Please don't tell that to players....Do teams honor the full length of contracts...

No...when a player starts fading, they cut them or ask them to take big pay

cuts.....When teams can cut you when they don't want you, I think players in

their prime have every right to earn the maximum that they can get, especially

in such a violent sport as the NFL.

 

Peyton Manning on the other hand is a classy individual who delivers through his actions on the field. Never did any information about their (huge) contract negotiation come out in the general press and neither has he ever sulked prior to that time.

366656[/snapback]

 

The issue is not whether PM is a classy individual or not...The bottom line is he is

hurting the team as much as TO does....just in different ways...Remember

the ultimate goal is to win a championship. Whether you hurt your teams

chances nicely or in a lousy way, the nett result is still the same....lack of

a championship....

[krazykat]

There is more to Moulds than stats.  When defenses double team him, it frees up a Price or Evans for a big gain.

364703[/snapback]

Opponents won't have to double EM for much longer. He ain't gettin' any faster.

[Fan in Chicago]

No...when a player starts fading, they cut them or ask them to take big pay

cuts.....When teams can cut you when they don't want you, I think players in

their prime have every right to earn the maximum that they can get, especially

in such a violent sport as the NFL.

 

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If I go with your logic, what exactly has TO 'shown' last year to demand a higher salary ? Whether he is injured or losing skills, both result in low output which means 'fading away'. One good performance in the SB does not warrant the return he is asking. The Eagles got to the SB mostly without TO. How much their offensive production would have dropped in the SB in TO's absence, we will never know. But we do know that they can get to the SB without having TO 100% of the time.

[ROSCOE P. COE TRAIN]

MArty Booker and Eric are twins. Once great, now average.

[AKC]

I keep reading here about how EM drops too many balls but, in all fairness, I remember watching a lot of passes come in too long, too short or behind his back the past couple of years.  Don't know if it was his fault or DB's but those two never seemed in sync.

364911[/snapback]

 

Eric simply doesn't have the great hands of many receivers in the game today. The best receivers in football come up not just with hard to catch balls but they rarely ever miss a ball in their natural range. Eric has never been able to do either of these with regularity- he will get an occasional highlight grab but for the most part he's proven to have inferior hands in a league where WR opportunities are critical to reducing your QBs exposure to the reality of increased pressure from more athletic rushers and more refined rushing schemes. That little first down drop that seems innocuous is instead the cause in many cases of a D being granted the ability to T off on a backfield and consequently the ball being turned over the the opposition, an opposition in many cases employing far more surehanded WRs.

 

Eric is a talented and experienced WR who is capable of making big plays, and in those areas he's a top 15 ot 20 WR in this league- unfortunately when his reliability is factored in he "drops" out of the top 30.

[ROSCOE P. COE TRAIN]

i think you are over analyzing the guy. his speed is the issue, he can't get separation, simple as that. He is physical and catches a ton of balls with a guy on his back. How many balls has he caught in space with separation? only on rare DE lapses does he do that if ever. so speed has always been his knock.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Eric simply doesn't have the great hands of many receivers in the game today. he best receivers in football come up not just with hard to catch balls but they rarfely ever miss a ball in their natural range. Eric has never been able to do wither of there- he will get an occasional highlight grab but for the most part he's proven to have inferior hands in a league where the WR opportuniites are critical to reducing your QBs exposure to the reality of increased pressure from more athletic rushers and more refined rushing schemes. That little first down drop that seems innocuous is instead the cause in many cases of a D being granted the ability to T off on a backfield and consequently the ball being turned over the the opposition, an opposition in many cases employing far more surehanded WRs.

 

Eric is a talented and experienced WR who is capable of making big plays, and in those areas he's a top 15 ot 20 WR in this league- unfortunately when his reliability is factored in he drops out of the top 30.

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[AKC]

i think you are over analyzing the guy.  his speed is the issue, he can't get separation, simple as that.  He is physical and catches a ton of balls with a guy on his back.  How many balls has he caught in space with separation?  only on rare DE lapses does he do that if ever.  so speed has always been his knock.

366857[/snapback]

 

I'm less concerned with his speed because his athletic gifts have allowed him to rarely walk away from a "jump ball" wihtout getting the better of the defender. It's the lackadaisical one-handed garbage and the outright bounces off his uniform that have forever frustrated this fan. IMO he just doesn't have the superior concentration of a great WR like Marvin Harrison.

[Kelly the Dog]

MArty Booker and Eric are twins.  Once great, now average.

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Marty Booker had about one good to great year. Moulds has had several, and is way, way better than Booker.