US Egg Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 Who wants lower tariffs? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 1 hour ago, The Frankish Reich said: The UAW is for it. I am against hiking tariffs regardless of whether they are proposed by the left or the right. Any economist would agree. Have you ever been to China or have any familiarity with what goes on? I could give many examples, just based on my limited experiences. Are you familiar with environmental, labor, or any other production regulations differences that ultimately impact cost of production? Are you familiar with the gross disregard for patent laws or intellectual property that is simply stolen from US manufacturing with no payment? Are you familiar with governmental requirements for US product production in China? It is ridiculous to state that any economist would agree, not that it should matter. China is a government entity designed to succeed, not to be fair. A good deal of that strategy involves putting US industry and labor at a massive disadvantage. This extends to service industries that serve China as well. The only way to compete fairly is to insist on fair competition. China doesn't, and many other countries don't in various industries, These protections grossly disadvantage US labor, and it is reasonable and necessary to acknowledge that and respond. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 6 hours ago, sherpa said: Have you ever been to China or have any familiarity with what goes on? I could give many examples, just based on my limited experiences. Are you familiar with environmental, labor, or any other production regulations differences that ultimately impact cost of production? Are you familiar with the gross disregard for patent laws or intellectual property that is simply stolen from US manufacturing with no payment? Are you familiar with governmental requirements for US product production in China? It is ridiculous to state that any economist would agree, not that it should matter. China is a government entity designed to succeed, not to be fair. A good deal of that strategy involves putting US industry and labor at a massive disadvantage. This extends to service industries that serve China as well. The only way to compete fairly is to insist on fair competition. China doesn't, and many other countries don't in various industries, These protections grossly disadvantage US labor, and it is reasonable and necessary to acknowledge that and respond. Ah, so you support the Trump tariffs because it will do exactly what for US labor? You say we are at a disavantage, but we are kicking their ass. Their economy isn't anywhere near as good as ours and it never will be as long as they suppress free speech and ideas. Why do you support the Trump tariff idea? What will it supposidly accomplish? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 7 hours ago, sherpa said: Have you ever been to China or have any familiarity with what goes on? I could give many examples, just based on my limited experiences. Are you familiar with environmental, labor, or any other production regulations differences that ultimately impact cost of production? Are you familiar with the gross disregard for patent laws or intellectual property that is simply stolen from US manufacturing with no payment? Are you familiar with governmental requirements for US product production in China? It is ridiculous to state that any economist would agree, not that it should matter. China is a government entity designed to succeed, not to be fair. A good deal of that strategy involves putting US industry and labor at a massive disadvantage. This extends to service industries that serve China as well. The only way to compete fairly is to insist on fair competition. China doesn't, and many other countries don't in various industries, These protections grossly disadvantage US labor, and it is reasonable and necessary to acknowledge that and respond. The question here is Chinese investment in Mexico to produce cars there. 10 hours ago, sherpa said: Anybody who doesn't understand the need to enforce tariffs on countries that deliberately put US products and services at a distinct disadvantage in their domestic markets has no idea of what goes on. Trade is best when on a level field. To deny that is job market suicide. There is a game theoretic approach that is at least defensible. In other words, we threaten (and Trump is the Threatener in Chief) tariffs/trade restrictions with the ultimate goal of reaching a deal that the U.S. and China can both live with. So I get that. But let's not lose sight of the goal: the furtherance of free and fair trade, not some kind of Fortress America. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US Egg Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 China routinely gets away violating WTO regulations for their benefit. Lifting tariffs is like saying here’s another way you can screw America. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 8 minutes ago, US Egg said: Lifting tariffs is like saying here’s another way you can screw America What about adding new tariffs? And what about Chinese direct investment in Mexico to produce cars there? That's what Trump seems to have a bug up his ass about. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 simple "answers" to difficult problems: Hallmark of fascism. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US Egg Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 Trump did this: Biden did this: “ for those who support free markets and the removal of U.S. trade barriers, the Biden administration basically took a bad trade deal and made it even worse” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 1 hour ago, US Egg said: Trump did this: Biden did this: “ for those who support free markets and the removal of U.S. trade barriers, the Biden administration basically took a bad trade deal and made it even worse” Absolutely. We are now in a political environment in which the parties are fighting over who can be more protectionist. And think about what we're doing: tariffs on steel and aluminum. Great for domestic steel/aluminum production I guess, because it raises the price of steel and aluminum. Which means that US auto producers pay more for steel and aluminum, which is bad for them. Which in turn given imported vehicles a price advantage. Which means that candidates say we need new tariffs on imported vehicles. See what I mean? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 3 hours ago, Tiberius said: Ah, so you support the Trump tariffs because it will do exactly what for US labor? You say we are at a disavantage, but we are kicking their ass. Their economy isn't anywhere near as good as ours and it never will be as long as they suppress free speech and ideas. Why do you support the Trump tariff idea? What will it supposidly accomplish? You have no idea. Absolutely none, but I don't have an interest responding to you. Sorry, that's just the way it is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundybout Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 12 hours ago, US Egg said: Who wants lower tariffs? Not surprising. Its classic rent seeking behavior. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 42 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: Absolutely. We are now in a political environment in which the parties are fighting over who can be more protectionist. And think about what we're doing: tariffs on steel and aluminum. Great for domestic steel/aluminum production I guess, because it raises the price of steel and aluminum. Which means that US auto producers pay more for steel and aluminum, which is bad for them. Which in turn given imported vehicles a price advantage. Which means that candidates say we need new tariffs on imported vehicles. See what I mean? at the end of the day. this is on par with GM building a huge facility in India for the very cheap labor, then selling it in the China market with no tariffs. Oh wait, the China/India trade deal protects the china auto industry. Wonder if we will get the state and federal rebate for buying Chinese EV vehicles? Can they get some of that sweet green infrastructure money? or is there some non-free trade clause that the vehicles must be Domestically manufactured to get the funds to automate and build/convert to EV production? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 (edited) 3 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said: The question here is Chinese investment in Mexico to produce cars there. There is a game theoretic approach that is at least defensible. In other words, we threaten (and Trump is the Threatener in Chief) tariffs/trade restrictions with the ultimate goal of reaching a deal that the U.S. and China can both live with. So I get that. But let's not lose sight of the goal: the furtherance of free and fair trade, not some kind of Fortress America. I only comment as an individual who has been involved in investment markets for decades and has been to China many times, so my views are empirical, and anecdotal. Others may have differing views. China is a country run on a targeted economic competition. They pay no attention to any environmental issues. No child labor issues. No slave type working conditions. They impose heavy tariffs on imported goods, thus denying US products fair exposure in their markets. They routinely allow and support violation of patents and intellectual property rights. Go to the Silk Market in Beijing. You will see vendor after vendor on many floors selling products with US company logos on them at prices far below what is reasonable. Totally unenforced. I was talking to a guy who was the Chief Operating Officer; the actual production guy, on a flight there. Silicon Valley company. He relayed to me his experience. His company had come up with leading edge solar panel technology and wanted to have these produced in China. The Chinese gov made them submit the technology to them in some convoluted effort to determine if the production would be "safe." They complied. Within months, a Chinese production facility was built and up and running using their exact technology and producing an identical product. Completely stolen. That's what happens when the gov is behind the fraud. I won't even get into the abuses of the industry I was involved in. Massive bribery is required to get various things done there. No reasonable, objective and accurate financial reports. I could go on and on, but failing to see that gov as a gross violator on international trade issues is an incredibly foolish posture, and ultimately a serious threat to US and western, law abiding trade and labor. Edited March 19 by sherpa 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 14 minutes ago, Tommy Callahan said: Wonder if we will get the state and federal rebate for buying Chinese EV vehicles? You mean the subsidy that already exists for US-produced EVs? What about the infamous chicken tax that makes pickups more expensive for Americans to buy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 1 hour ago, Tommy Callahan said: Can they get some of that sweet green infrastructure money? or is there some non-free trade clause that the vehicles must be Domestically manufactured to get the funds to automate and build/convert to EV production? No answer and a spin to a silly strawman. Is this Chinese company getting out tax dollars in rebates to build said plant or when they sell them in our market? I get states and the feds have a personal rebate for buying an EV. that's another topic. the hundreds of millions in the green infrastructure bill that went to building and transforming EV production? 1 hour ago, The Frankish Reich said: You mean the subsidy that already exists for US-produced EVs? What about the infamous chicken tax that makes pickups more expensive for Americans to buy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 4 minutes ago, Tommy Callahan said: Is this Chinese company getting out tax dollars in rebates to build said plant or when they sell them in our market The Google is your friend. https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/ira-ev-tax-credits/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US Egg Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 1 hour ago, sherpa said: I only comment as an individual who has been involved in investment markets for decades and has been to China many times, so my views are empirical, and anecdotal. Others may have differing views. China is a country run on a targeted economic competition. They pay no attention to any environmental issues. No child labor issues. No slave type working conditions. They impose heavy tariffs on imported goods, thus denying US products fair exposure in their markets. They routinely allow and support violation of patents and intellectual property rights. Go to the Silk Market in Beijing. You will see vendor after vendor on many floors selling products with US company logos on them at prices far below what is reasonable. Totally unenforced. I was talking to a guy who was the Chief Operating Officer; the actual production guy, on a flight there. Silicon Valley company. He relayed to me his experience. His company had come up with leading edge solar panel technology and wanted to have these produced in China. The Chinese gov made them submit the technology to them in some convoluted effort to determine if the production would be "safe." They complied. Within months, a Chinese production facility was built and up and running using their exact technology and producing an identical product. Completely stolen. That's what happens when the gov is behind the fraud. I won't even get into the abuses of the industry I was involved in. Massive bribery is required to get various things done there. No reasonable, objective and accurate financial reports. I could go on and on, but failing to see that gov as a gross violator on international trade issues is an incredibly foolish posture, and ultimately a serious threat to US and western, law abiding trade and labor. Well said. China hasn’t adhered to the WTO mandates, the U.S. has been outspoken about their continued negligence. Ironically, the WTO railed, to China’s defense, when Trump placed his tariffs on them. Trump admitted that it was done in part because of China routinely stealing intellectual property and profiting without any repercussions. The WTO had also sided with China on their complaints that the U.S. was in violation of tariff laws because they deemed them retaliatory by the Obama administration and fined the U.S. Simply, China is running roughshod exploiting the WTO and the WTO is strangely fine with it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 "The Inflation Reduction Act changed the rules for the electric vehicle tax credit. It set strict requirements on which vehicles are eligible to encourage automakers to shift manufacturing operations to North America" So yeah, they are getting that sweet stimmy money from us, to build that. Amazing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 1 hour ago, sherpa said: You have no idea. Absolutely none, but I don't have an interest responding to you. Sorry, that's just the way it is. You are an idiot. Clown boy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 Kidding. They are probably getting stimulus money and doing it to get around the current 25% tariffs on china vehicles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 Just now, Tommy Callahan said: Kidding. They are probably getting stimulus money and doing it to get around the current 25% tariffs on china vehicles OF COURSE they'd be doing it to get around the current tariffs. They aren't stupid. The rebates on EVs are now ridiculously complicated under the IRA rules, so we'd have to see how any Chinese company Mexican production facility would fit within them. But the point is they'd be manufactured not in China, but in MEXICO. And to qualify under post-NAFTA USCANMEX rules, they'd have to comply with minimum requirements (as they relate to work conditions) set forth in that treaty. TRUMP negotiated that treaty. If it was a bad treaty, if it allowed for foreign direct investment by China in Mexico to benefit under its terms, then that's on him. People really have a problem with comprehension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 3 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: OF COURSE they'd be doing it to get around the current tariffs. They aren't stupid. The rebates on EVs are now ridiculously complicated under the IRA rules, so we'd have to see how any Chinese company Mexican production facility would fit within them. But the point is they'd be manufactured not in China, but in MEXICO. And to qualify under post-NAFTA USCANMEX rules, they'd have to comply with minimum requirements (as they relate to work conditions) set forth in that treaty. TRUMP negotiated that treaty. If it was a bad treaty, if it allowed for foreign direct investment by China in Mexico to benefit under its terms, then that's on him. People really have a problem with comprehension. And when the current rate is raised to 100 to keep it competitive. Or could help with the insane deficit. Who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 18 minutes ago, Tiberius said: You are an idiot. Clown boy I do OK, but thanks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 1 hour ago, sherpa said: I do OK, but thanks. Sherpa, Tiberius: I think both of you make some good contributions to this board. Let's maybe try to keep the insults limited to our pre-existing insult comics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 The current thing is working so well in so many ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz28 Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 4 minutes ago, Tommy Callahan said: The current thing is working so well in so many ways. The graph literally is comparing one stock to another, and claiming it's an indicator of doom. Then at the end it says, "The top 10% of stocks in the US now reflect ~75% of the entire market.", which would mean that there's actually very little speculation happening. Seems contradictory to me, and definitely not the same thing as the dot-com bubble. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 20 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: Sherpa, Tiberius: I think both of you make some good contributions to this board. Let's maybe try to keep the insults limited to our pre-existing insult comics? I insulted no one. I am simply not going to respond to him, absent some compelling reason. It is that simple, and I'd be pleased to be banned if that is untenable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US Egg Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Thanks you UAW for your endorsement, now f@ck off: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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