Reality Check Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, daz28 said: If you understand it so well, then where's the outrage for roadblocks and drawing your blood? The Patriot Act basically took away a ridiculous amount of your rights over 3k deaths, and the president said if you don't vote for it the next attack is on you. Neither I, nor probably anyone likes this idea, but it may be what's necessary. They also really have no grounds to continue the measures when the threat is over. That is the rub. There is little incentive to end the "threat" given the trillions of 0% money being distributed. We are in a sense hostages being held for ransom at this point. Just my opinion of course.
daz28 Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 Just now, Reality Check said: That is the rub. There is little incentive to end the "threat" given the trillions of 0% money being distributed. We are in a sense hostages being held for ransom at this point. Just my opinion of course. Does this make much sense? The measures are being done to reduce cases, so how could they be also simultaneously be working to make it perpetual? The only thing that might do that is no testing, no tracing, no social distancing, and open everything up with no measures, which is the opposite of what they are doing.
Reality Check Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, daz28 said: Does this make much sense? The measures are being done to reduce cases, so how could they be also simultaneously be working to make it perpetual? The only thing that might do that is no testing, no tracing, no social distancing, and open everything up with no measures, which is the opposite of what they are doing. The sales pitch and the real world result are never the same thing when politics and business are involved. 2
dubs Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 I am fully in the open up camp. This shutdown is destroying lives among other issues (loss of rights, irreparable damage to the economy, crushing debts). We all take risks in our lives and this is no different. Open up, take precautions, let the private sector sort out their own choices, and let's go. 5 1
Trump_is_Mentally_fit Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 On 3/24/2020 at 3:36 PM, Magox said: The economic cost of a protracted downturn is mind bending, but there is a human health component to it as well. The 2008 downturn according to studies caused over 12,000 suicides and Tens of thousands of indirect deaths due to added stress which lowers people's immune systems that makes those with heart and cancer afflictions specially at risk. This DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A BINARY CHOICE! - It does NOT HAVE TO BE ONE OR THE OTHER. There is a responsible way to decide when we can begin this and how it would look like. For those of you that are interested in seeing this Harvard study on the impacts of protracted unemployment to people's health you can read that here. Yes, the costs are really terrible. Republicans not even considering a bailout of state and local governments that the Dems proposed.Think of all the extra deaths that will happen if the states have to lay off workers! Why compound that? That's different though, right? Don't be a hypocrite now
Deranged Rhino Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 36 minutes ago, daz28 said: If you understand it so well, then where's the outrage for roadblocks and drawing your blood? The Patriot Act basically took away a ridiculous amount of your rights over 3k deaths, and the president said if you don't vote for it the next attack is on you. Neither I, nor probably anyone likes this idea, but it may be what's necessary. They also really have no grounds to continue the measures when the threat is over. You're a fool. You NEVER get the rights back you give up willingly. Ever. You didn't in 9/11 per your own example, and the Patriot Act did nothing to keep us safe. Nothing. 4 1
daz28 Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 6 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: You're a fool. You NEVER get the rights back you give up willingly. Ever. You didn't in 9/11 per your own example, and the Patriot Act did nothing to keep us safe. Nothing. I'm not agreeing with the Patriot Act, but there still is global terrorism, and I'm not looking to debate that. The thing is they can at least make that claim. Which rights do you think you permanently lose , and what justification do you think they will use to continue them after the Covid infections subside?
Deranged Rhino Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 Just now, daz28 said: I'm not agreeing with the Patriot Act, but there still is global terrorism, and I'm not looking to debate that. The thing is they can at least make that claim. Which rights do you think you permanently lose , and what justification do you think they will use to continue them after the Covid infections subside? We lost the fourth amendment to the Patriot Act, and still haven't gotten it back. All you need to do is look at the REAL story with ObamaGate to see how. Your fear does not give the state the right to take away my rights. Sorry. That's not how it works unless you have the spine of a jellyfish. 2 1
shoshin Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 10 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: You're a fool. You NEVER get the rights back you give up willingly. Ever. We are already getting the right to assemble back, and that's just with the current example we are all living through. I've given other examples when you bring this up.
Boatdrinks Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 34 minutes ago, daz28 said: Does this make much sense? The measures are being done to reduce cases, so how could they be also simultaneously be working to make it perpetual? The only thing that might do that is no testing, no tracing, no social distancing, and open everything up with no measures, which is the opposite of what they are doing. The measures appear to no longer have the goal of reducing cases, but of reducing them to zero. That’s not reasonable or even possible. The vast majority of people will either be asymptomatic to this or will recover from mostly mild symptoms. Locking down millions of people and forcing them from their jobs cannot be looked at as accomplishing a “ greater good”. 1
daz28 Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Boatdrinks said: The measures appear to no longer have the goal of reducing cases, but of reducing them to zero. That’s not reasonable or even possible. The vast majority of people will either be asymptomatic to this or will recover from mostly mild symptoms. Locking down millions of people and forcing them from their jobs cannot be looked at as accomplishing a “ greater good”. I agree with all of that, but I think you do have to quarantine people who do have it. I also think we need some measures to remain in place, and open in phases. 1
Reality Check Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Boatdrinks said: The measures appear to no longer have the goal of reducing cases, but of reducing them to zero. That’s not reasonable or even possible. The vast majority of people will either be asymptomatic to this or will recover from mostly mild symptoms. Locking down millions of people and forcing them from their jobs cannot be looked at as accomplishing a “ greater good”. It is similar to the climate whatever people who agree with Bill Gates that the goal is to get CO2 emissions to zero. 1
Deranged Rhino Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, shoshin said: We are already getting the right to assemble back, and that's just with the current example we are all living through. I've given other examples when you bring this up. Look above.
shoshin Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 36 minutes ago, B-Man said: GA has been level and we are early into the cycle. If things look level in a few more weeks after the virus re-establishes itself with the population that had been locked down and we avoid another exponential growth starting from a bigger pool than the first go around, that will be great.
daz28 Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 9 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: We lost the fourth amendment to the Patriot Act, and still haven't gotten it back. All you need to do is look at the REAL story with ObamaGate to see how. Your fear does not give the state the right to take away my rights. Sorry. That's not how it works unless you have the spine of a jellyfish. I don't have any fear, but you didn't answer either question.
Deranged Rhino Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 Just now, daz28 said: I don't have any fear, but you didn't answer either question. I did answer them both. The government cannot force you to give up your rights based on fear, you have to do so willingly. As they did with the Patriot Act -- which was not designed to fight terrorism or stop it, but to extend the control of the state over the people. Full stop. FEAR is how they sell bad ideas like the one you're pushing. If you're not afraid, prove it and wise up. 1
daz28 Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Deranged Rhino said: I did answer them both. The government cannot force you to give up your rights based on fear, you have to do so willingly. As they did with the Patriot Act -- which was not designed to fight terrorism or stop it, but to extend the control of the state over the people. Full stop. FEAR is how they sell bad ideas like the one you're pushing. If you're not afraid, prove it and wise up. No, specifically which rights do you feel you will permanently lose, because of Covid?
Deranged Rhino Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 Just now, daz28 said: No, specifically which rights do you feel you will permanently lose, because of Covid? None so far, because people haven't given in.
Boatdrinks Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 12 minutes ago, daz28 said: I agree with all of that, but I think you do have to quarantine people who do have it. I also think we need some measures to remain in place, and open in phases. That is a sensible approach imo. Voluntary self quarantine, but if someone refuses after testing positive that must be dealt with. At that point intent could be established, so they are a social threat. A phased re-opening with some precautionary measures in place is probably required. 1
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