chicot Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 I guess when the soldiers who are accused of being at Abu Ghraib kick the sh-- out of the perps, they can accuse the perps of being the same as the ones who attacked Air Force recruiters. That'll even it all out. 301397[/snapback] It has a certain symmetry to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted April 11, 2005 Author Share Posted April 11, 2005 if some drunk in a bar brings up the issue of Abu Ghraib, it will not be the responsibility of the soldiers that committed the abuses, not the responsibility of the soldiers that blew the whistle on them, nor of the journalists that reported it. No, it will be the evil antiwar protestors who will bear the "full responsibility". Truly remarkable 301321[/snapback] You've got it- of you don't have the balls to serve your country honorably you should at the very minimum have the good sense to keep your trap shut when in the presence of one who risked their lives for you. If you somehow are so driven by your selfish cowardice that you must mouth off about things you have no grasp of (your painting of all our fighting forces with the misconduct of a few is disgusting) at least do it in the company of other jellyfish and not in front of those that deserve all of our honor and respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 Actually, the second biggest reason for my opposition to this war this way at this time, behind I thought that it was going to cause a bigger problem than it solved, WAS my respect and support for the troops. I didn't want to see them die, get maimed or injured. Which is why I consider this war the 2nd or 3rd worse terrorist attack on the US in our history. The 1500 lives lost of my fellow citizens and the thousands hurt and the billions spent and the recruiting of as many terrorists (IMO) than it killed could have been prevented by not going. It may turn out that this was a great move and great war a year or 10 or 50 down the line. I hope for it but don't see it. But it was my patriotism that made me speak out against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gross Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 So you are calling decorated veterans, military families, currently serving troops and reseves unpatriotic, eh? http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/ http://www.veteransforpeace.org/ http://www.ivaw.net/ etc...each of these links to other organizations that have current and past members of the military and their families protesting the war. I take it they are all being unpatriotic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted April 11, 2005 Author Share Posted April 11, 2005 I didn't want to see them die, get maimed or injured. Which is why I consider this war the 2nd or 3rd worse terrorist attack on the US in our history. The 1500 lives lost of my fellow citizens and the thousands hurt and the billions spent and the recruiting of as many terrorists (IMO) than it killed could have been prevented by not going. 301556[/snapback] I think it's horrible that police are killed regularly in our country- I guess if I adopt your way of thinking we could remove them from the streets and make life safer for police. Better yet, do you realize that over 400,000 people died in car accidents in the United States alone last year? Many of those people are members of our armed forces- where do autos rank on your list of ways to save Americans- wouldn't applying your plan by banning the automobile INSTANTLY save nearly a HALF MILLION American lives every year? Maybe you're on to something! 1500 is hardly an insignificant number- but then again it's less than the number of people murdered in New Yok City every year. Protecting our own shores has a cost, a cost that surely when put into perspective should not draw anywhere near the focus of the out of control death by even innocent means and worse the rampant violence within our own society. When you start marching against those I'll help you do your recruiting ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 I think it's horrible that police are killed regularly in our country- I guess if I adopt your way of thinking we could remove them from the streets and make life safer for police. Better yet, do you realize that over 400,000 people died in car accidents in the United States alone last year? Many of those people are members of our armed forces- where do autos rank on your list of ways to save Americans- wouldn't applying your plan by banning the automobile INSTANTLY save nearly a HALF MILLION American lives every year? Maybe you're on to something! 1500 is hardly an insignificant number- but then again it's less than the number of people murdered in New Yok City every year. Protecting our own shores has a cost, a cost that surely when put into perspective should not draw anywhere near the focus of the out of control death by even innocent means and worse the rampant violence within our own society. When you start marching against those I'll help you do your recruiting ;-) 301572[/snapback] Terrible analogy, AKC. It's arguable that this war was a war of choice or a war of need. There are good and bad arguments both ways. You see it as a war of necessity, and you may be right. I believe it was a war of choice and I may be right. But I would never call you unpatriotic for wanting to see us in an unnecessary war even if it was the most stupid war in history. You honestly believe this is the right thing to do, and that's cool. I think precisely the opposite, and think it caused and causes a bigger problem, and more of my fellow citizens are going to die because of it. But I am not unpatriotic, and it pisses me off when people call it such, to speak out against it. I have great admiration for people in the armed forces. I have been for most wars America has been in my lifetime. Being against this one, the way we did it, and speaking out about it does not lessen my patriotism one bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gross Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 The Pope's not American- he should say anything he wants at any time he wants to say it. I didn't say he was American, I didn't say he was unpatriotic. I'm talking about sphere of influence. Who do you think has more sway on the millions of Roman Catholics in the US? The Pope, or a group of picketing protesters? Your presumption about the influence of the Anti-war movement is completely contradicted by the facts regarding recruiting- it's rural states where dissent is minimal where the largest percentage of recruits come from while the mega-cites (which are the targets of the terrorists) send pitiful percentages of soldiers by comparison. Some call it enlightenment, I call it cowardice. To let other's children protect your liberal cities is a sickness in our society. It stems from a lack of belief, among some even a hatred of America that is nurtured in those same liberal cities IMO. 300502[/snapback] And what percentage of city vs. rural residents are ineligible due to no diploma, not being a citizen, too many dependents (or being a single parent), criminal record, financial eligibility, physical shape? Are you basing this on the fact that enlistment among African Americans is down, which would reduce the "urban" population participating? If you're going to brush with a broad stroke and talk stereotypes, use all statistics, not just the ones that appear to prove your point. Did you ever consider the strengthening economy is providing for more opportunities for people who might otherwise consider the military as an only viable option? What is the source of your statistics, that point to the protestors (not already established personal opinion about the Iraq conflict) as the cause of the decline? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted April 11, 2005 Author Share Posted April 11, 2005 I have great admiration for people in the armed forces. I have been for most wars America has been in my lifetime. Being against this one, the way we did it, and speaking out about it does not lessen my patriotism one bit. 301579[/snapback] Well in excess of 15,000 people are murdered in violent criminal homicides every year in the United States. If you haven't attended rallies decrying this, if you haven't called any talk radio stations or sent letters to the editor of your newspaper, sported a bumper sticker with your expressions against violent murder, started or joined any movement against it- if you've refused to exercise your right to speak out about this horrible number of people needlessly killed on our own soil every year, I will exercise my right to assume your dissent regarding a war in which we've unfortunately suffered the loss of 1500 soldiers is nothing more than political grandstanding. And political grandstanding while our troops are under fire, grandstanding that hurts those same troops in many ways, can in no way be fairly characterized as "patriotic" by any measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 You've got it- of you don't have the balls to serve your country honorably you should at the very minimum have the good sense to keep your trap shut when in the presence of one who risked their lives for you. If you somehow are so driven by your selfish cowardice that you must mouth off about things you have no grasp of (your painting of all our fighting forces with the misconduct of a few is disgusting) at least do it in the company of other jellyfish and not in front of those that deserve all of our honor and respect. 301465[/snapback] Criticizing some drunken fool who shoots his mouth off in a bar is one thing, it is quite another to try to pin the blame for his behaviour on the entire antiwar movement, most of which would almost certainly disagree with the actions of your hypothetical friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 "Patriotism includes shutting up at times" Anyone else wishing AKC were a little more patriotic in this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 Terrible analogy, AKC. It's arguable that this war was a war of choice or a war of need. There are good and bad arguments both ways. You see it as a war of necessity, and you may be right. I believe it was a war of choice and I may be right. But I would never call you unpatriotic for wanting to see us in an unnecessary war even if it was the most stupid war in history. You honestly believe this is the right thing to do, and that's cool. I think precisely the opposite, and think it caused and causes a bigger problem, and more of my fellow citizens are going to die because of it. But I am not unpatriotic, and it pisses me off when people call it such, to speak out against it. I have great admiration for people in the armed forces. I have been for most wars America has been in my lifetime. Being against this one, the way we did it, and speaking out about it does not lessen my patriotism one bit. 301579[/snapback] Stupid war? Is the war stupid, or is the entire himan race for having a need to go to war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 Stupid war? Is the war stupid, or is the entire himan race for having a need to go to war. 302074[/snapback] It's actually spelled "hymen," but I was unaware that these near extinct beings were elevated on the evolutionary chart to being a unique race. But Hymen Race does have a nice, if not familiar, ring to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 Yes, we had public discussion on the war. It is becoming clear that it was a farce (finally for some), rigged with faulty information. Facts about the American endeavour in Iraq are becoming clearer. Isn't that taking a toll on recruitment? To blame the hippy targeting recruiters is just plain whining. And when have the smartest and brightest of our youth ever been recuited to enlist in a policy war? What are the real reasons people enlist for military service? IMO, recruiters are salesmen that want one thing... Close the deal and get you to sign on the line. There will always be the person out there that buys the snakeoil. Throw patriotism on the bottle and you can't go wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMadCap Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 Stupid war? Is the war stupid, or is the entire himan race for having a need to go to war. 302074[/snapback] I think it possible to argue that war is part of our genetic makeup. We evolved into what we are because our ancestors were successful at out competing our rivals. I think it is impossible for humans to get along without fighting with one another. It is probably never going to go away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 Did you ever see the "Soup Nazi" episode of Seinfeld? Enjoying some good soup requires you to stand in line and keep quiet! "NO soup for you!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted April 12, 2005 Author Share Posted April 12, 2005 Yes, we had public discussion on the war. It is becoming clear that it was a farce (finally for some), rigged with faulty information. 302081[/snapback] While you were deep in your your cave: The Iraqi's held a vote. Required reading for any species hibernating during the winter of '04/'05 And let me be the first to welcome you back the real world, as it appears I must be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 While you were deep in your your cave: The Iraqi's held a vote. Required reading for any species hibernating during the winter of '04/'05 And let me be the first to welcome you back the real world. 302659[/snapback] But the sky is so much prettier in his world... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 But the sky is so much prettier in his world... 302661[/snapback] But the water tastes like a skunk's ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 But the water tastes like a skunk's ass. 302677[/snapback] I've never tasted a skunk's ass, so I'll take your word for it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 I've never tasted a skunk's ass, so I'll take your word for it... 302683[/snapback] Neither have I but I'm blessed with an imagination. So predictable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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