DrDawkinstein Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 (edited) I know you're just pushing the "butterfly effect," so I'll just ignore that futility. Let's do Dalton over Dareus. Do we have have more success? No. Dalton has basically been playing "put it up to AJ" the last few years. When is the last time the Bills properly developed a drafted QB? Losman, Edwards, Manuel? We would have done better on Dalton? With our revolving door of coaches compared to Lewis's tenure? Edited November 28, 2015 by DrDareustein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 (edited) We should have taken Dareus. We should have taken Dalton over Aaron though. You didn't answer my question. No. Dalton has basically been playing "put it up to AJ" the last few years. When is the last time the Bills properly developed a drafted QB? Losman, Edwards, Manuel? We would have done better on Dalton? With our revolving door of coaches compared to Lewis's tenure? How much "developing" did Andy do his rookie year? He was basically outplaying Fitz right out of the gate. Do you think he would magically turn into Losman if the Bills drafted him? Edited November 28, 2015 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felonious Monk Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 People keep saying this. It isn't true. He is worse against us than against other teams this is true. But he is still bang darn average. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Let's do Dalton over Dareus. Do we have have more success? I think your point is more arguable there. I don't think we would have any more wins if you added Tannehill and subtracted Dareus. Dalton I think is a better case. I think he would have struggled more the first couple of years. He joined a pretty solid all round Bengals team that yes had had a bad 2010 season when if you recall they were ravaged by injuries but was only a year removed from a 10 win season. However, last year and this year do I think we'd have seen the kind of production from Dalton that the Bengals have? Yes probably. And would that be worth more wins than Marcel and Orton/Tyrod yes probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 I think your point is more arguable there. I don't think we would have any more wins if you added Tannehill and subtracted Dareus. Dalton I think is a better case. I think he would have struggled more the first couple of years. He joined a pretty solid all round Bengals team that yes had had a bad 2010 season when if you recall they were ravaged by injuries but was only a year removed from a 10 win season. However, last year and this year do I think we'd have seen the kind of production from Dalton that the Bengals have? Yes probably. And would that be worth more wins than Marcel and Orton/Tyrod yes probably. That's my point. A blue chipper like Dareus just isn't a difference maker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 You didn't answer my question. How much "developing" did Andy do his rookie year? He was basically outplaying Fitz right out of the gate. Do you think he would magically turn into Losman if the Bills drafted him? Pretty much. Almost any QB the Bills wouldve drafted over the past 15 years would have turned out like the others over that time. Andy had a much stronger supporting cast his first year, from WRs to coaching stability. The Bills were in their 2nd year of a complete rebuild from the FO to the roster. It has been one of the biggest problems for this franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Pretty much. Almost any QB the Bills wouldve drafted over the past 15 years would have turned out like the others over that time. Andy had a much stronger supporting cast his first year, from WRs to coaching stability. The Bills were in their 2nd year of a complete rebuild from the FO to the roster. It has been one of the biggest problems for this franchise. Sorry, I just have to disagree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 That's my point. A blue chipper like Dareus just isn't a difference maker. But he is and he has been for this team. Dalton panned out but let's do a list of Quarterbacks who haven't - between Cam (who I believe we would have taken had by some miracle he been there at #3) and Dalton were Locker and Gabbert. What if we had passed on Dareus and picked one of them? I contend we would fewer wins than we have had with the elite defensive tackle - especially the past couple of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 But he is and he has been for this team. Dalton panned out but let's do a list of Quarterbacks who haven't - between Cam (who I believe we would have taken had by some miracle he been there at #3) and Dalton were Locker and Gabbert. What if we had passed on Dareus and picked one of them? I contend we would fewer wins than we have had with the elite defensive tackle - especially the past couple of years. And the difference between 4 and 6 wins is what, exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted November 28, 2015 Author Share Posted November 28, 2015 You didn't answer my question. How much "developing" did Andy do his rookie year? He was basically outplaying Fitz right out of the gate. Do you think he would magically turn into Losman if the Bills drafted him? In my opinion you are correct that Dalton should have been chosen over Aaron but Dalton has also not proven that he can get his team to a title and Did we hae a player the caliber of AJ Green at the time to make Dalton look good? Because when AJ is not in the lineup......it shows and That is behind us....I am more concerned about what we are going to do going forward....dwelling on the past is just not productive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 (edited) And the difference between 4 and 6 wins is what, exactly? Marcel played in a 9 win team last year and had an outstanding year. But I see you have ignored my point. It is ok just saying "gamble on a Quarterback and leave the elite player at another position on the board" but you better gamble on the right "maybe" Quarterback... or else very quickly you are going to be very, very bad. Did we hae a player the caliber of AJ Green at the time to make Dalton look good? Because when AJ is not in the lineup......it shows Worth saying as well that the number support a "closes his eyes and chucks it to AJ" theory. No QB to WR target has combined for more picks in the time since the two entered the league. I think the eye test shows a major step forward for Dalton this year. He is playing the best football he ever has without question - but there was some of that the first 4 year no doubt. Edited November 28, 2015 by GunnerBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 (edited) Marcel played in a 9 win team last year and had an outstanding year. But I see you have ignored my point. It is ok just saying "gamble on a Quarterback and leave the elite player at another position on the board" but you better gamble on the right "maybe" Quarterback... or else very quickly you are going to be very, very bad. And it will make no difference. If we got Locker and sucked even harder, we could take Luck. Or we could take Teddy. Or Jameis. Who cares? Being the best team without a QB still means you'll be playing golf during the postseason with a 4-12 team who took a shot on a QB. In my opinion you are correct that Dalton should have been chosen over Aaron but Dalton has also not proven that he can get his team to a title and Did we hae a player the caliber of AJ Green at the time to make Dalton look good? Because when AJ is not in the lineup......it shows and That is behind us....I am more concerned about what we are going to do going forward....dwelling on the past is just not productive. Dalton has also not proven that he can get his team to a title You are the biggest flip-flopper in history. All day you shout about how we just need to make the playoffs. Then you say Dalton isn't good enough because he hasn't made the Superbowl in three years. Pick a side. Edited November 28, 2015 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 And it will make no difference. If we got Locker and sucked even harder, we could take Luck. Or we could take Teddy. Or Jameis. Who cares? Being the best team without a QB still means you'll be playing golf during the postseason with a 4-12 team who took a shot on a QB. Listen you need a Quarterback to compete consistently for championships in this league nobody disputes that. But every year there are guys you would put in the top 10 Quarterbacks who miss the play-offs. You need a team as well and you do not pass up guys like Marcel Dareus to gamble on Jake Lockers and Andy Daltons.... even if Dalton might in hindsight have worked out for you. The "just keep shooting at QBs" theory doesn't work for me. Never take a gamble at another position over a gamble at Quarterback... sure. But you do not pass up guys you think can be elite for gambles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted November 28, 2015 Author Share Posted November 28, 2015 And it will make no difference. If we got Locker and sucked even harder, we could take Luck. Or we could take Teddy. Or Jameis. Who cares? Being the best team without a QB still means you'll be playing golf during the postseason with a 4-12 team who took a shot on a QB. Dalton has also not proven that he can get his team to a title You are the biggest flip-flopper in history. All day you shout about how we just need to make the playoffs. Then you say Dalton isn't good enough because he hasn't made the Superbowl in three years. Pick a side. Unless you get a QB from somewhere else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 (edited) Then you say Dalton isn't good enough because he hasn't made the Superbowl in three years. It's 4 actually. 1 and done 4 times. Peyton is praying someone breaks that particular record by the way.... Not that I am slagging Dalton - I do think there is a noticeable step this year. Wouldn't surprise me if Cincy ended up in the AFC title game. Edited November 28, 2015 by GunnerBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Listen you need a Quarterback to compete consistently for championships in this league nobody disputes that. But every year there are guys you would put in the top 10 Quarterbacks who miss the play-offs. You need a team as well and you do not pass up guys like Marcel Dareus to gamble on Jake Lockers and Andy Daltons.... even if Dalton might in hindsight have worked out for you. The "just keep shooting at QBs" theory doesn't work for me. Never take a gamble at another position over a gamble at Quarterback... sure. But you do not pass up guys you think can be elite for gambles. But most of the time they make it. Unlike Dareus. Unless you get a QB from somewhere else Lol like where? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted November 28, 2015 Author Share Posted November 28, 2015 Listen you need a Quarterback to compete consistently for championships in this league nobody disputes that. But every year there are guys you would put in the top 10 Quarterbacks who miss the play-offs. You need a team as well and you do not pass up guys like Marcel Dareus to gamble on Jake Lockers and Andy Daltons.... even if Dalton might in hindsight have worked out for you. The "just keep shooting at QBs" theory doesn't work for me. Never take a gamble at another position over a gamble at Quarterback... sure. But you do not pass up guys you think can be elite for gambles. At this point I just dont know Here we sit with one viable qb on our roster....no developmental guy...... We need to start drafting qbs But most of the time they make it. Unlike Dareus. Lol like where? A stable organization that has a franchise QB in place and their extremely talented clip board holder comes up on free agency? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 At this point I just dont know Here we sit with one viable qb on our roster....no developmental guy...... We need to start drafting qbs A stable organization that has a franchise QB in place and their extremely talented clip board holder comes up on free agency? Yeah yeah, totally "franchise." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 At this point I just dont know Here we sit with one viable qb on our roster....no developmental guy...... We need to start drafting qbs I am not anti drafting QBs. Not at all. I have been as critical as anyone of this organisation not taking a single flier on a QB besides Levi Brown in forever. I am anti draft one in the 1st no matter what. When you get yourself in that position you get EJ Manuel type swings. I would be desperately trying to find a sensible way to get a Quarterback in either the 1st or the 2nd round this year. However, taking a guy I have rated as a 3rd round Quarterback at pick 19 or 20 when there might be say an offensive tackle or an edge rusher who I think has potential to be elite? I wouldn't advocate that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted November 28, 2015 Author Share Posted November 28, 2015 Yeah yeah, totally "franchise." We dont know yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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