Big C Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 That's a tough one especially when it comes to the OL. Even Kromer has said, in an interview, that it would be hard to evaluate how well individuals played along the OL unless he knew specific blocking assignments and what the calls were. Yet we are to believe that the guys over at PFF, who btw aren't expert football scouts they are fans , can somehow decipher what Kromer can not. Here's what PFF looks for in it's analysts: "ProFootballFocus.com is seeking a number of highly enthusiastic and dedicated football fans to join their analysis team. If you’re a passionate follower of football, looking to expand your knowledge of the game and get a foot in the door of the football industry, then you could have what it takes to become a part of PFF. The successful candidate must have: ● Demonstrable knowledge of the NFL product and what PFF does ● A very high level of enthusiasm and passion for football and Pro Football Focus ● Excellent interpersonal and communication skills (both written and verbal) ● Ability to meet deadlines ● Positive attitude, strong work ethic, and excellent attention to detail ● At least 20 hours of free time per week, with a large amount of time available on weekends" Sure, it's a jumping off point of sorts but with a very large grain of salt. Damnit, why didn't I apply for this job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Fear The problem with all of this evalutation is it does not take into account that - Different players mature at different rates - Rookies tend to play like....well....rookies Seantrel had his issues no doubt....and you are correct in that our coaching didnt seem to fathom that a rookie OT might need some help on that side I am NOT saying that Henderson should be starting at OT......especially if Kujo has found his game....only that these offensive linemen should not be graded on their first year. I get that, and the fact that he was a rookie was probably the only reason he is still on the roster. Sure O linemen can take a few years to develop, and regardless of what Marrone said a lot can be said about the continuity of having the same player next to you year after year. In my view fans are still somewhat reaching in their thinking that players who performed so bad they couldn't even see the field, or players who looked horrible last year will somehow step up to become instant reliable starters. The article Carucci wrote was moronic, and that a guy who was about the worst RT in the league will now become a valuable LT is preposterous. Now fans going on and on about how good the line will be, while some even supporting the nonsense that Carucci wrote. Will a new improved coaching staff help, you bet! Will a better player next to Henderson at OG help, you bet. I'm also hopeful a full off season program of training, and conditioning will help. Who really knows tho, and it looks like a gamblers throw of the dice to me. Forgive me John as I'm still bothered by the fact that after Whaley couldn't land Bulaga at RT, Evans at OG that he simply gave up trying to find quality experienced talent for those positions. 10 mill for a RB, and 6 mill for a WR, and yet the team still doesn't a top line to protect the average / below average QB's. The known worst unit on the team was about to get some solid upgrades, and then they didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I don't remember a lot of Bills fans throwing that number around. I do, however, remember a number of Bills fans saying that PFF grades are to be taken with a grain of salt. I think they can be graded on their 1st year; I just want to see Kromer do the grading, and then put it into his own context. There's no arguing that the OL underperformed last year. The discrepancy, as I see it, is how much responsibility they bare for QBs that held the ball too long, RBs that missed open lanes, and a generally disorganized offensive structure. Hopefully we will see this year. I do think the personnel is better, and I'm hopeful that the 2nd year guys can grow from where they were last year (a full offseason in an NFL program has a huge effect on guys). let me clarify that.... Its not that they be graded in their first year but recieve a overall final grade on how good they will be as a NFL player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Forgive me John as I'm still bothered by the fact that after Whaley couldn't land Bulaga at RT, Evans at OG that he simply gave up trying to find quality experienced talent for those positions. 10 mill for a RB, and 6 mill for a WR, and yet the team still doesn't a top line to protect the average / below average QB's. The known worst unit on the team was about to get some solid upgrades, and then they didn't. Holy assumptions, bat-man! "Simple gave up"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I get that, and the fact that he was a rookie was probably the only reason he is still on the roster. Sure O linemen can take a few years to develop, and regardless of what Marrone said a lot can be said about the continuity of having the same player next to you year after year. In my view fans are still somewhat reaching in their thinking that players who performed so bad they couldn't even see the field, or players who looked horrible last year will somehow step up to become instant reliable starters. The article Carucci wrote was moronic, and that a guy who was about the worst RT in the league will now become a valuable LT is preposterous. Now fans going on and on about how good the line will be, while some even supporting the nonsense that Carucci wrote. Will a new improved coaching staff help, you bet! Will a better player next to Henderson at OG help, you bet. I'm also hopeful a full off season program of training, and conditioning will help. Who really knows tho, and it looks like a gamblers throw of the dice to me. Forgive me John as I'm still bothered by the fact that after Whaley couldn't land Bulaga at RT, Evans at OG that he simply gave up trying to find quality experienced talent for those positions. 10 mill for a RB, and 6 mill for a WR, and yet the team still doesn't a top line to protect the average / below average QB's. The known worst unit on the team was about to get some solid upgrades, and then they didn't. OK....I understand the frustration. I wanted Bulaga as well but Now look what is happening.....Kujo is actually coming into camp in shape and competing for the RT spot......Henderson.....well you can see from the film that he had his ups and downs but one thing that is NOT inquestion is he is athletic with all the tools Then you factor in they did bring in Cog and drafted John Miller (there is just something about John Miller that I really like....they guy was meant to be a starting guard in the NFL is is just a bowling ball....now we find out when he gets to the bills that he doesnt make the boneheaded rookie mistakes either) they resign Urbik for depth and he was a starter last year on a subpar line.....but still a starter. You factor in a TE in Clay who can block Now you also have to factor in what it would have cost to bring in Bulaga......WE HAVE GREAT DEFENSIVE PLAYERS WE NEED TO INK....... I will say this right here right now....if Kujo does the turnaround and actually takes that RT spot? I have no problem with what Whaley did this offseason......he was patient and did not jettison Kujo.......he was calculated in when he took his OG in the draft.....he was thrifty in the aquisition of Cog........and he was really smart in getting one of the better OL coaches to coach them all up after the disaster that was last season. Lets just wait and see.....Whaley might come out smelling like a rose on his......his three drafts all looked to have been very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Holy assumptions, bat-man! "Simple gave up"... Did you happen to notice the words "experienced talent"? Whaley even stated after the team signed Harvin for 6 mill per that the team no longer had the financial resources to sign other free agents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Did you happen to notice the words "experienced talent"? Whaley even stated after the team signed Harvin for 6 mill per that the team no longer had the financial resources to sign other free agents. And yet they have signed more free agents since then. There's no way to know he "simply gave up" on finding talent -- experienced or otherwise -- in fact, it'd be silly to assume he "gave up" considering his job title and the fact acquiring talent is a year round process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Did you happen to notice the words "experienced talent"? Whaley even stated after the team signed Harvin for 6 mill per that the team no longer had the financial resources to sign other free agents. There are so many factors that play into free agents fear....I am sure you know that. You dont just put a check in front of a player and he is yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 OK....I understand the frustration. I wanted Bulaga as well but Now look what is happening.....Kujo is actually coming into camp in shape and competing for the RT spot......Henderson.....well you can see from the film that he had his ups and downs but one thing that is NOT inquestion is he is athletic with all the tools Then you factor in they did bring in Cog and drafted John Miller (there is just something about John Miller that I really like....they guy was meant to be a starting guard in the NFL is is just a bowling ball....now we find out when he gets to the bills that he doesnt make the boneheaded rookie mistakes either) they resign Urbik for depth and he was a starter last year on a subpar line.....but still a starter. You factor in a TE in Clay who can block Now you also have to factor in what it would have cost to bring in Bulaga......WE HAVE GREAT DEFENSIVE PLAYERS WE NEED TO INK....... I will say this right here right now....if Kujo does the turnaround and actually takes that RT spot? I have no problem with what Whaley did this offseason......he was patient and did not jettison Kujo.......he was calculated in when he took his OG in the draft.....he was thrifty in the aquisition of Cog........and he was really smart in getting one of the better OL coaches to coach them all up after the disaster that was last season. Lets just wait and see.....Whaley might come out smelling like a rose on his......his three drafts all looked to have been very good. The mere fact that Ryan has to leash Hughes, and pull him from practices make me worry that this another year of the penciled in paper lions. I get that everything looks promising on paper, and in T shirts, shorts. Same as last year when Marrone couldn't stop gushing about how good Henderson was all off season...until he wasn't. Had Richardson starting until week six, and was replaced by the revolving door who can't run block. Sorry I can share everyone's enthusiasm about this upcoming year because I don't see Miller, Henderson, Kouandjio becoming so good they have Glenn ride the bench as 2nd string, as the title in this thread suggests, simply absurd. Perhaps if they hired ex Bills O line coach Jim McNally back as a consultant I might be moved to think they might actually make some silk purses. What also bothers me is that Yolo is hinting that (despite not knowing exactly what they have on hand talent wise) the team may be preparing to let Glenn walk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big C Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 What also bothers me is that Yolo is hinting that (despite not knowing exactly what they have on hand talent wise) the team may be preparing to let Glenn walk. The Bills won't let Glenn walk if Henderson and Kujo clearly aren't able to man the tackle positions. But, say they both show up big in TC/preseason and we end up having perfectly good starters in both of them, the scenario where we lose Glenn becomes more likely and reasonable. Gilmore and Dareus will command big $. Can't keep all of the players always. Then again, if Glenn is back on track to being dominant at LT, well then I'm sure we will do our best to keep him, knowing we have good OT depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) The mere fact that Ryan has to leash Hughes, and pull him from practices make me worry that this another year of the penciled in paper lions. I get that everything looks promising on paper, and in T shirts, shorts. Same as last year when Marrone couldn't stop gushing about how good Henderson was all off season...until he wasn't. Had Richardson starting until week six, and was replaced by the revolving door who can't run block. Sorry I can share everyone's enthusiasm about this upcoming year because I don't see Miller, Henderson, Kouandjio becoming so good they have Glenn ride the bench as 2nd string, as the title in this thread suggests, simply absurd. Perhaps if they hired ex Bills O line coach Jim McNally back as a consultant I might be moved to think they might actually make some silk purses. What also bothers me is that Yolo is hinting that (despite not knowing exactly what they have on hand talent wise) the team may be preparing to let Glenn walk. You're going to spend all your time worrying about things you think might be wrong with the team (without any way of knowing whether you're right or not) because you don't believe in Whaley and as a result you could end up missing out on all the fun. As much as you worry (and write) about fans here being blinded by optimism, isn't it possible you're letting yourself be blinded by pessimism? It's June 4th. Nothing, absolutely nothing, will be known for certain about this team until we get into the meat of camp -- if not September. Edited June 4, 2015 by GreggyT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 EJ Manuel might be traded or cut. Cordy Glenn might become a back up. Anyone see a pattern of bs here from Carucci? Is he really this gullible, or is he knowing being used like a tool. Pattern? Carucci is getting his info from Leroi? Carucci is Leroi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) The mere fact that Ryan has to leash Hughes, and pull him from practices make me worry that this another year of the penciled in paper lions. I get that everything looks promising on paper, and in T shirts, shorts. Same as last year when Marrone couldn't stop gushing about how good Henderson was all off season...until he wasn't. Had Richardson starting until week six, and was replaced by the revolving door who can't run block. Sorry I can share everyone's enthusiasm about this upcoming year because I don't see Miller, Henderson, Kouandjio becoming so good they have Glenn ride the bench as 2nd string, as the title in this thread suggests, simply absurd. Perhaps if they hired ex Bills O line coach Jim McNally back as a consultant I might be moved to think they might actually make some silk purses. What also bothers me is that Yolo is hinting that (despite not knowing exactly what they have on hand talent wise) the team may be preparing to let Glenn walk. i think they will let him walk if they can adequately replace him with Henderson and replace Henderson's RT spot with CK or someone else. If not, who knows what they do re: salary cap but Dareus and Gilmore are tougher to replace in draft/FA and their contracts are going to be enormous. That may not be your opinion, but it is mine. So it's just a hunch. Obviously, everyone would love to keep Glenn. Edited June 4, 2015 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 The Bills won't let Glenn walk if Henderson and Kujo clearly aren't able to man the tackle positions. But, say they both show up big in TC/preseason and we end up having perfectly good starters in both of them, the scenario where we lose Glenn becomes more likely and reasonable. Gilmore and Dareus will command big $. Can't keep all of the players always. Then again, if Glenn is back on track to being dominant at LT, well then I'm sure we will do our best to keep him, knowing we have good OT depth. We don't know that. This team let Andy Levitre walk at the end of 2012 and still hasn't adequately replaced him, except perhaps on paper a few times. For some unknown reason this team puts far more value on the defensive side of the line then they do the offensive side. Probably the biggest reason the team can't elevate the QB position to something other then "he sucks!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 We don't know that. This team let Andy Levitre walk at the end of 2012 and still hasn't adequately replaced him, except perhaps on paper a few times. For some unknown reason this team puts far more value on the defensive side of the line then they do the offensive side. Probably the biggest reason the team can't elevate the QB position to something other then "he sucks!" This team is not the same team from 2012. It's not the same team from even the start of 2014. New owner, new front office, new coaching staff... it's a poor analogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 We don't know that. This team let Andy Levitre walk at the end of 2012 and still hasn't adequately replaced him, except perhaps on paper a few times. For some unknown reason this team puts far more value on the defensive side of the line then they do the offensive side. Probably the biggest reason the team can't elevate the QB position to something other then "he sucks!" they tried and failed to replace Levitre adequately, but it was the right move to let him walk. As it is the GMs job is to figure it out, because they drafted some really good players they now need to pick who to pay, he will need to try again to replace Glenn if they make that decision. In this case, it appears they *might* (no we do not know yet) have the homegrown player ready to replace him already. That wasn't the case with LG, where they went with signing FAs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big C Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) We don't know that. This team let Andy Levitre walk at the end of 2012 and still hasn't adequately replaced him, except perhaps on paper a few times. For some unknown reason this team puts far more value on the defensive side of the line then they do the offensive side. Probably the biggest reason the team can't elevate the QB position to something other then "he sucks!" We don't, but it was a different regime. The current staff has shown a clearer desire to retain the talent on hand and also add the missing talent. Still, do you think Levitre was worth what Tennessee paid him? I don't. Edited June 4, 2015 by Big C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 We don't, but it was a different regime. The current staff has shown a clearer desire to retain the talent on hand and also add the missing talent. Still, do you think Levitre was worth what Tennessee paid him? I don't. That's not even a debatable discussion...he's been a huge bust in Tennessee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Its all about competition with this staff. They are a long way from determining a starting 5. BTW, this was something missing from the Marrone regime. You were either on the inside looking out or the outside looking in. A big problem when you are developing and attempting to improve players. They need to believe they have a chance, and it makes everyone better. Well said. And true, dat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 they tried and failed to replace Levitre adequately, but it was the right move to let him walk. As it is the GMs job is to figure it out, because they drafted some really good players they now need to pick who to pay, he will need to try again to replace Glenn if they make that decision. In this case, it appears they *might* (no we do not know yet) have the homegrown player ready to replace him already. That wasn't the case with LG, where they went with signing FAs. Like I stated earlier I think part of the big reason why they let Levitre leave was that he wasn't considered a very good run blocker. Had he been graded as a better run blocker I think the team would have kept him, and paid him. This also might be the thinking with Glenn, as he isn't graded as a top run blocker either. Its a foolish thinking IMO considering how well the man pass blocks considering the lack of talent next to him. The LT position is the next most important position on offense other then QB IMO, and the Bills finally have another good one. Judging from the manure that Buddy Nix used to spread around about the O line players. That good line players can be found in the later rounds. That OG's are a dime a dozen, and an OT can be moved inside to play OG with success. How have those ideas worked out the last few years? But I also think that philosophy from the Bills FO has been around for quite sometime. How long did it take to replace Jason Peters, four years? The team never replaced all pro Ruben Brown. Its seems like its been all RB's, DB's in the first round the last 15 years Even Levite and Wood weren't the first picks in their respective rounds. Both a direct result of the Jets NT Kris Jenkins taking on both OG's and the center, and still getting to the QB. Jauron finally stopped having nightmares about Brady to Moss, and realized he needed to protect his QB better. So he drafted for the line instead of DB's. The Bills simply haven't put forth that much effort into building a top line since the Jim Kelly days with Wilford, Ritchter, Hull who were all pro bowlers or the AFL days when all five O linemen were all pros and they won championships. Like I said, the lack of a top line is probably a big reason as to why no QB since Kelly has been able to become something other then "he sucks!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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