Bills "could be" interested in Surtain

[34-78-83]

I don't like trading for someone who will have to take a pay cut...

sounds like more problems than it's worth.

226452[/snapback]

 

Why is that? (I'm being serious) ....

[Rico]

Why is that? (I'm being serious) ....

226456[/snapback]

What if Surtain doesn't agree to the pay cut?

With only one year left in his contract, he could rape us in 2005 & then leave town in 2006.

 

I still say if Saban is doing a fire sale,

trade Henry, Schobel, & a pick for Jason Taylor.

 

After TH extends, the cap cost on both sides would be pretty close (I believe, not sure)...

Felons get the RB they need & an decent young DE with upside who's under contract for awhile,

Bills get an great DE who has at least a few more years of all-pro play in him.

With Willis on the team, TH is pretty much an after-thought,

Taylor would be a huge upgrade over Schobel.

[d_wag]

Yep, you're right.  No good players ever leave to go anywhere else.  Takeo Spikes, London Fletcher, Sam Adams, CV, Rodney Harrison, Vonnie Holiday, Terrell Owens, Jeff Garcia, Laverneus Coles, Deon Grant, Jevon Kearse, Grant Wistrom, Rod Coleman, Shawn Springs, Duce Staley, Damian Woody, ...

 

The Eagles didn't lose All Pros Jeremiah Trotter (since returning he's probably been their most valuable playoff performer), Hugh Douglas, and Troy Vincent.

 

Lotsa merit to that argument.  Free agency is a fact of life in the NFL.  The BILLS have benefitted ALOT more from it than it has hurt them.

226447[/snapback]

 

i think you missed a key part of my post -- YOUNG

 

most of the players you listed were getting passed their prime.......the ones that aern't left because they're team didn't take care of them before they hit free agency and of course, once the lure of the bucks is at hand, it is tough to retain a player...........there are reasons why they weren't resigned earlier in some cases (cap room, injury concerns, etc.), but none of them apply to nate and the bills, or jennings and winfield for that matter.......like i said, committing to a player early requires faith and big bucks, something TD hasn't been able to do for many players.......instead, he waits till they are on the cusp of free agency, coming off career years, thus making them next to impossible to sign, so you guys sit around and make excuses for him.......i call them like i see them, and i see missed opportunities and good young talent walking out the door........

 

you still haven't explained how philly can lock up sheppard and brown, how SD can lock up LT, how NY can lock up pennington and ellis, but I shouldn't expect the bills to lock up nate? why not? why shouldn't they pay him? oh, that's right, nate is just in it for the bucks, wants to be a free agent, just like every other buffalo bill........

 

like i said, they should have signed him last off-season, but TD waited and the price went up.......other teams are smart and see that will happen with their GOOD YOUNG PLAYERS, but TD just sits back and waits........

[kota]

What if Surtain doesn't agree to the pay cut?

With only one year left in his contract, he could rape us in 2005 & then leave town in 2006.

 

I still say if Saban is doing a fire sale,

trade Henry, Schobel, & a pick for Jason Taylor.

 

After TH extends, the cap cost on both sides would be pretty close (I believe, not sure)...

Felons get the RB they need & an decent young DE with upside who's under contract for awhile,

Bills get an great DE who has at least a few more years of all-pro play in him.

With Willis on the team, TH is pretty much an after-thought,

Taylor would be a huge upgrade over Schobel.

226471[/snapback]

 

I see your one of those "lets trade our whole team for one guy kinda guys"

[34-78-83]

What if Surtain doesn't agree to the pay cut?

With only one year left in his contract, he could rape us in 2005 & then leave town in 2006.

 

I still say if Saban is doing a fire sale,

trade Henry, Schobel, & a pick for Jason Taylor.

 

After TH extends, the cap cost on both sides would be pretty close (I believe, not sure)...

Felons get the RB they need & an decent young DE with upside who's under contract for awhile,

Bills get an great DE who has at least a few more years of all-pro play in him.

With Willis on the team, TH is pretty much an after-thought,

Taylor would be a huge upgrade over Schobel.

226471[/snapback]

 

They agreement would be in place with PS's agent before the trade actually went down (these things don't just come up as afterthoughts).

We just re-signed AS and he had an even more complete year than his previous 2 (yes even though he had 2 less sacks). He dominated Orlando Pace and Jonathan Ogden, remember?

Taylor is great but this would just not work because AS's signing bonus hits us for the next 5 years.

[Bill from NYC]

I like the plan and agree with you that it may hurt the plans to resign PW and JJ. Although if both EM AND DB restructure, technically we would have the $ for all of this  (depending on the cost of the upgraded guard which I agree we need).

226453[/snapback]

 

This my friend IS exciting. Entering the 05 season, TD has selling points to offer FAs about coming to a team that CAN win football games.

In another posting, I made reference to the monster DTs in our division.....Robertson, Seymour and a guy that I truly think will be great, Wilfork. The Bills need to toughen up inside at LG, of this I am positive.

 

Another dirty little secret is the frightening number third and long first downs that our talented defense gave up. If Surtain could lessen this, one could only imagine how good this football team can be, with health and a lucky draft pick or 2.

 

I have never entered an offseason with as much hope.

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[d_wag]

I still say if Saban is doing a fire sale,

trade Henry, Schobel, & a pick for Jason Taylor.

 

After TH extends, the cap cost on both sides would be pretty close (I believe, not sure)...

Felons get the RB they need & an decent young DE with upside who's under contract for awhile,

Bills get an great DE who has at least a few more years of all-pro play in him.

With Willis on the team, TH is pretty much an after-thought,

Taylor would be a huge upgrade over Schobel.

226471[/snapback]

 

it is more costly for the phins to trade taylor then to keep them -- it would decrease their cap room, not increase it......

 

he has a huge unamortized bonus from various restructurings the past few years........he isn't going anywhere.........surtain is tradeable only because his unamortized bonus is around 2M........taylor's is over 10M

[Rico]

I see your one of those "lets trade our whole team for one guy kinda guys"

226478[/snapback]

How so? From our standpoint, all we really give up is Schobel, replaced by Taylor.

TH is a non-factor, the pick is a crap-shoot.

[Rico]

it is more costly for the phins to trade taylor then to keep them -- it would decrease their cap room, not increase it......

 

he has a huge unamortized bonus from various restructurings the past few years........he isn't going anywhere.........surtain is tradeable only because his unamortized bonus is around 2M........taylor's is over 10M

226483[/snapback]

If that's the case, I stand corrected... thought the $$$ would be closer.

[Alaska Darin]

i think you missed a key part of my post -- YOUNG

Nate will be 26 if he leaves.

 

London, TKO, Sam Adams (when he left the Seahawks), and Woody were all the 26 when they left their first team. Coles and Grant were 25. Kearse, Coleman, and Springs were 27.

 

 

most of the players you listed were getting passed their prime.......

 

the ones that aern't left because they're team didn't take care of them before they hit free agency and of course, once the lure of the bucks is at hand, it is tough to retain a player...........there are reasons why they weren't resigned earlier in some cases (cap room, injury concerns, etc.), but none of them apply to nate and the bills, or jennings and winfield for that matter.......like i said, committing to a player early requires faith and big bucks, something TD hasn't been able to do for many players.......instead, he waits till they are on the cusp of free agency, coming off career years, thus making them next to impossible to sign, so you guys sit around and make excuses for him.......i call them like i see them, and i see missed opportunities and good young talent walking out the door........

So it's OK for YOU to make excuses when your argument is failing? Jennings doesn't have injury concerns? WTF are you trying to kid?

 

You have no idea what the GM of the Buffalo Bills has tried or not in this situation, nor do you have any idea what the player or his agent have in mind. Which player has left from this team for big bucks that wasn't adequately replaced? Please say A. Winfield. Please.

[soljc]

If the Bills ever made a run at Surtain, they'd surely work a contract extension out before dealing. And it's clear--at least to me--that we're about to spend some serious dough at the CB position soon, certainly no later than next year with Nate due a new deal.

 

Personally, I'd see if we could trade Henry and a pick for Surtain, lock him up for 3-5 years, and then watch the best secondary in football next year with Nate and Surtain at CB, McGee at nickel--where he's most comfortable--and Milloy and Vincent at SS and FS. If that were to happen, Nate obviously wouldn't be around for more than a year, but I'd prefer Surtain to him, so that's ok in my book.

[BuffOrange]

I'm on the fence about this. As usual, it would depend on $.

On one hand, Surtain is a fine player; better than his more harolded counterpart Madison. And I'm not a big Clements fan, so I won't shed a tear if we don't re-sign him.

On the other hand, "the best secondary in the NFL" and $1.50 is good for a cup of coffee without a pass-rush and an offense that can score consistently. If there's one thing we should've learned the last couple years, it's that.

Also, re: McGee - he's NOT a "huge injury risk" just because he returns punts. When was the last time anybody got seriously hurt returning punts? Jason Seahorn, 5 years ago?

[Alaska Darin]

When was the last time anybody got seriously hurt returning punts?  Jason Seahorn, 5 years ago?

226536[/snapback]

Sehorn was hurt on a kickoff.

[soljc]

And I'm not a big Clements fan, so I won't shed a tear if we don't re-sign him. 

On the other hand, "the best secondary in the NFL" and $1.50 is good for a cup of coffee without a pass-rush and an offense that can score consistently.  If there's one thing we should've learned the last couple years, it's that. 

226536[/snapback]

 

Like you, I'm not a huge fan of Clements, and if Bills think similarly, it's not too early to start thinking about, or even finding, his replacement.

 

No argument at all with the pass rush, but with Schobel signed to a long-term deal, and new guy Kelsay getting significant playing time along with Denney, I don't expect any major moves in this area. As for the offense, we do need help at OT if Jonas isn't resigned, but I gotta figure we'd look to FA or the draft, not a trade.

[d_wag]

Nate will be 26 if he leaves.

 

London, TKO, Sam Adams (when he left the Seahawks), and Woody were all the 26 when they left their first team.  Coles and Grant were 25.  Kearse, Coleman, and Springs were 27. 

 

So it's OK for YOU to make excuses when your argument is failing?  Jennings doesn't have injury concerns?  WTF are you trying to kid?

 

You have no idea what the GM of the Buffalo Bills has tried or not in this situation, nor do you have any idea what the player or his agent have in mind.  Which player has left from this team for big bucks that wasn't adequately replaced?  Please say A. Winfield. Please.

226508[/snapback]

 

you just keep pounding home my point -- if you don't take care of a good young player and let him get to free agency, he will likely leave.....

 

fletch -- martz calls letting him go his biggest mistake with STL

spikes -- 2 pro bowls with BUF since leaving

adams -- great couple years in BAL and plenty of success in BUF

woody -- as covered earlier, pats are the exception to the rule as they can plug in anyone and not miss a beat

coles -- NYJ got compensation for him as he was RFA

grant -- had a backup they wanted to play

kearse -- didn't have the cap room to keep him, but would have loved to

coleman -- had a great season in ATL

springs -- injury concerns

 

so of that group, there are plenty of mistakes where a team doesn't get a player locked up and watches him leave only to enjoy plenty of success elsewhere.......i don't want that to happen to nate (or winfield and jennings for that matter), but for whatever reason that is what you want......

 

jennings is fine and a solid, young LT.......there not exactly easy to find in today's game......are you going to tell me it wouldn't have been cheaper to extend him a season ago then it is today?? who sounds foolish now? of course it would have been cheaper, but TD didn't have the balls to do it and decides to play games with him instead.........other teams get deals done, but apparantly it's okay for TD to let a good young talent walk.......

 

has winfield been replaced? certainly........could we have got him at a discounted rate if we gave him a contract extension a year or two before the expiration of his old deal? certainly.......and as a result, we would have got EXCELLENT value as a result seeing he has continued to get better and better every season.......just like jennings and nate have.......

 

but this all comes back to all the buffalo bills being greedy, right? because we don't know what TD has tried, and what the player and agent want?

 

i'm pretty sure i do know -- TD has lowballed, the player and agent want a fair deal, thus nothing gets done.......that is TD's style, right? but keep playing the excuse card if you want to and blame the player and agent.......we all know how greedy those buffalo bills are.........

[Alaska Darin]

you just keep pounding home my point -- if you don't take care of a good young player and let him get to free agency, he will likely leave.....

 

fletch -- martz calls letting him go his biggest mistake with STL

spikes -- 2 pro bowls with BUF since leaving

adams -- great couple years in BAL and plenty of success in BUF

woody -- as covered earlier, pats are the exception to the rule as they can plug in anyone and not miss a beat

coles -- NYJ got compensation for him as he was RFA

grant -- had a backup they wanted to play

kearse -- didn't have the cap room to keep him, but would have loved to

coleman -- had a great season in ATL

springs -- injury concerns

 

so of that group, there are plenty of mistakes where a team doesn't get a player locked up and watches him leave only to enjoy plenty of success elsewhere.......i don't want that to happen to nate (or winfield and jennings for that matter), but for whatever reason that is what you want......

 

jennings is fine and a solid, young LT.......there not exactly easy to find in today's game......are you going to tell me it wouldn't have been cheaper to extend him a season ago then it is today?? who sounds foolish now? of course it would have been cheaper, but TD didn't have the balls to do it and decides to play games with him instead.........other teams get deals done, but apparantly it's okay for TD to let a good young talent walk.......

 

has winfield been replaced? certainly........could we have got him at a discounted rate if we gave him a contract extension a year or two before the expiration of his old deal? certainly.......and as a result, we would have got EXCELLENT value as a result seeing he has continued to get better and better every season.......just like jennings and nate have.......

 

but this all comes back to all the buffalo bills being greedy, right? because we don't know what TD has tried, and what the player and agent want?

 

i'm pretty sure i do know -- TD has lowballed, the player and agent want a fair deal, thus nothing gets done.......that is TD's style, right? but keep playing the excuse card if you want to and blame the player and agent.......we all know how greedy those buffalo bills are.........

226562[/snapback]

You said other teams don't lose good young players. I proved they did. Your response to that was:

 

The players I cited weren't young. I proved they are.

 

You say we could have gotten Winfield for less if we'd locked him up earlier - implying that he would have signed a deal if it were offered. That's based on nothing more than speculation that:

 

A. No attempt was made.

B. That he wanted to stay (all indications from what the man said throughout his time in WNY are to the contrary).

 

I don't know why you continue to say that "Buffalo Bills" are greedy when in reality virtually ALL human beings are greedy. There are very few people who are going to not field ALL their options when there is big money to be made. NFL players know they truly get ONE chance at a big payday - at the end of their first contract. There aren't many that don't test the waters. You can argue that point if you want - but that'll be nothing more than ideological drivel.

 

As far as Jennings goes, the two sides talked during the offseason - and nothing got done. Same with PW. They did work it out with Schobel. Again, you know nothing about what was bantered in the room - but it must be Donahoe and not the players. I wouldn't pay Jonas a ton of jack either - because he's an average LT who spends alot of time nursing injuries other guys play with. I don't think he is tough enough to get going when the going gets tough.

 

Please tell me you're sure based on his track record with the Steelers.

[d_wag]

You said other teams don't lose good young players.  I proved they did.  Your response to that was:

 

The players I cited weren't young.  I proved they are.

 

You say we could have gotten Winfield for less if we'd locked him up earlier - implying that he would have signed a deal if it were offered.  That's based on nothing more than speculation that:

 

A.  No attempt was made.

B.  That he wanted to stay (all indications from what the man said throughout his time in WNY are to the contrary).

 

I don't know why you continue to say that "Buffalo Bills" are greedy when in reality virtually ALL human beings are greedy.  There are very few people who are going to not field ALL their options when there is big money to be made.  NFL players know they truly get ONE chance at a big payday - at the end of their first contract.  There aren't many that don't test the waters.  You can argue that point if you want - but that'll be nothing more than ideological drivel.

 

As far as Jennings goes, the two sides talked during the offseason - and nothing got done.  Same with PW.  They did work it out with Schobel.  Again, you know nothing about what was bantered in the room - but it must be Donahoe and not the players.  I wouldn't pay Jonas a ton of jack either - because he's an average LT who spends alot of time nursing injuries other guys play with.  I don't think he is tough enough to get going when the going gets tough.

 

Please tell me you're sure based on his track record with the Steelers. 

226579[/snapback]

 

i said other teams retain their good young talent.......they do......

 

i said most of the players you listed were older and not relevant to the conversation....they were.....

 

the players you did list that were young proves that a team should lock up their good young talent early or live to regret letting them go....most of the players went on to career years after leaving.....

 

winfield would have stuck around if he was offered big bucks EARLY, just like sheppard and brown did when offered extensions 2 years into 5 year deals......TD didn't want to risk it and didn't put faith in him.....he lost a good young player as a result by letting winfield's price increase and allowing him to get to free agency when he should have waved the "signing bonus carrot" in front of his face well in advance of the end of his deal......

 

i pointed out players that didn't want to test the waters and instead took their signing bonus money well in advance of free agency.....the eagles employ this strategy with all their good young talent, and it works.......it could work for the bills as well, but it involves faith in the player and taking a risk on them....

 

i have given TD credit for getting schobel done, but retaining 1 out of 4 good young players is not a good average as far as i'm concerned.......you insist they are, like most players, greedy -- if that is the case, why aern't they jumping at big signing bonus money well in advance of their contract years??......you can call sheppard and brown greedy if you want -- the point is the eagles got BOTH signed long-term....

 

if jennings was signed to an extension a year to two years ago, he wouldn't have cost "a ton of jack"......that is my point -- his price has increased because his play has improved.....if he would have been signed back then he would have signed for good money, but that money would look smaller in comparison to the deals currently be handed out for LT's.......

 

ask steeler fans if TD is cheap......the free agent losses they suffered during his era speak for themselves........

[Alaska Darin]

i said other teams retain their good young talent.......they do......

Apparently not all of them. Just as we haven't lost all of our good young talent.

 

i said most of the players you listed were older and not relevant to the conversation....they were.....

Uh, 4 players out of that list of 17 were 30 or older. Everyone else was 28 or younger. Few NFL players are old at 28. Math apparently isn't your strongpoint.

 

the players you did list that were young proves that a team should lock up their good young talent early or live to regret letting them go....most of the players went on to career years after leaving.....

I suppose I could go back and list the number of big buck free agents who ended up being busts, but you won't be able to grasp the concept so I'm not going to bother.

 

winfield would have stuck around if he was offered big bucks EARLY, just like sheppard and brown did when offered extensions 2 years into 5 year deals......TD didn't want to risk it and didn't put faith in him.....he lost a good young player as a result by letting winfield's price increase and allowing him to get to free agency when he should have waved the "signing bonus carrot" in front of his face well in advance of the end of his deal......

Nothing more than speculation and ignores the fact that the BILLS didn't have the cap space to do it anyway. But carry on...

 

i pointed out players that didn't want to test the waters and instead took their signing bonus money well in advance of free agency.....the eagles employ this strategy with all their good young talent, and it works.......it could work for the bills as well, but it involves faith in the player and taking a risk on them....

i have given TD credit for getting schobel done, but retaining 1 out of 4 good young players is not a good average as far as i'm concerned.......

you insist they are like most players, greedy, and i disagree in that if they were offered fair contracts in advance of their free agent date they would have taken it, just like eagle players and others around the league have done......

Others? You've cited 2 players. Give me 10 examples from at least 3 different teams.

 

if jennings was signed to an extension a year to two years ago, he wouldn't have cost "a ton of jack"......that is my point -- his price has increased because his play has improved.....if he would have been signed back then he would have signed for good money, but that money would look smaller in comparison to the deals currently be handed out for LT's.......

Sign a guy to an extension after his first 15 games as a starter at the position? To say NOTHING of the salary cap situation at the time. Yeah, that'd have been REALLY smart.

 

Did you use the same lahjik when Sam Cowart was playing out of his MIND? Too bad we didn't lock him up long term.

 

ask steeler fans if TD is cheap......the free agent losses they suffered during his era speak for themselves........

226633[/snapback]

Yeah, I'm going to ask delusional Steeler fans about a situation that had virtually nothing to do with Donahoe - because you can't figure out the basics and who wouldn't pay. They were losing free agents BEFORE THERE WAS A SALARY CAP.

 

We sign in essence 5 Pro Bowl players over the past 3 seasons on defense, lose one we drafted, and Donahoe is cheap? Oh, OK.

[obie_wan]

Ok, I see what you are saying, but what kind of money would Surtain want and woulld that # be reasonable with his age?  I guess we could go and explore that option if he is willing to sign a 3-4 yr deal w/ the trade at a reasonable price.

 

Although, I would think trying to keep Clements at a fair market value would one of our top priorities.  Also, I would bet that Ty Law will be available in the upcoming FA.  Maybe we could try and sign him...

226231[/snapback]

 

Surtain wants elite CB money (Champ Bailey).

 

Phish need to cut $17 mil in cap money by March 1.

 

Unlikely that Saban will be using the magic of JoBu to extend the contracts of already overpaid players to create cap room.

 

Fins will probably have to cut or trade Madison or Surtain. Teams would be smart to let the Dolphins squirm,

[d_wag]

Apparently not all of them.  Just as we haven't lost all of our good young talent.

 

obviously not all --they're are other factors, such as injury concerns, salary cap, etc.

 

but most teams in our position salary cap wise can retain more then they let get away, and TD is not looking like he will follow that pattern........

 

Uh, 4 players out of that list of 17 were 30 or older.  Everyone else was 28 or younger.  Few NFL players are old at 28.  Math apparently isn't your strongpoint.

 

alot of the guys you listed we're on their 2nd contact, which makes them irrelevant to this conversation........when i talk about locking up young players i talk about locking them up EARLY, on their rookie deals and ideally with 1 to 2 years left on that contract.......the majority of the players you offered we're out of that range.......reading comprehension apparantly isn't your strongpoint.......

 

I suppose I could go back and list the number of big buck free agents who ended up being busts, but you won't be able to grasp the concept so I'm not going to bother.

 

who said it wasn't a risky strategy? but when you gamble and make a correct assessment of a player, the rewards are huge....

 

in winfield's case, would that not have been a good investment 2 years ago? you have to be thick to not see that he has continued to progress as a player......

 

Nothing more than speculation and ignores the fact that the BILLS didn't have the cap space to do it anyway. But carry on...

 

if winfield is as greedy as you have speculated, then that point is very relevant to the conversation.....why wouldn't a greedy player like winfield have wanted his money 1 to 2 years in advance? you can't have it both ways.......

 

and who is responsible for that cap space? last time i checked it was TD making the decisions on how to allocate those cap dollars........if there wasn't enough room to extend winfield, it is only because he didn't budget for it........it's his decision.....

 

Others?  You've cited 2 players.  Give me 10 examples from at least 3 different teams.

 

like i said, your reading comprehenion is poor......try to keep up......i also listed LT, elllis, and pennington as guys who have recently extended their contracts, avoiding free agency........there are your 3 teams......

 

want others? how about chad johnson, peyton manning, daunte culpepper, shaun rogers, lavar arrington, brian urlacher, keith bulluck, marvel smith, aaron smith, donovan mcnabb, torry holt.....i could go on and on......

 

Sign a guy to an extension after his first 15 games as a starter at the position?  To say NOTHING of the salary cap situation at the time.  Yeah, that'd have been REALLY smart.

 

so you think the eagles look dumb for locking up sheppard and brown despite their COMBINED 15 starts at the time the deals were done?? i think that move looks pretty damn good......they showed faith, and they were rewarded......

 

Did you use the same lahjik when Sam Cowart was playing out of his MIND?  Too bad we didn't lock him up long term.

 

pretty tough to predict career changing injuries.....like i said, that is the risk......

 

Yeah, I'm going to ask delusional Steeler fans about a situation that had virtually nothing to do with Donahoe - because you can't figure out the basics and who wouldn't pay.  They were losing free agents BEFORE THERE WAS A SALARY CAP.

 

yea, nothing to do with him -- he was only the GM.....not like he had any say who comes and goes......what was he doing there again?

 

We sign in essence 5 Pro Bowl players over the past 3 seasons on defense, lose one we drafted, and Donahoe is cheap?  Oh, OK.

 

his strategy for resigning young players is cheap, not his overall spending.......it's a game to him.........let them stew until their contract year, lowball them, pull the offer off the table all together (are you forgetting he stopped negioating with PW, AS, and JJ for a period this summer?), give them another lowball offer.......like i said, it worked on AS, tip of the hat for that, but most players want to be treated fairly from the get go and won't take that sh*t (ala winfield).......TD would rather play games with the leverage, and as a result, we'll continue to see players walk away and be deemed "greedy" by bills fans as a result.......