Could Hackett's offense have worked with D'Alessandris' OL

[dollars 2 donuts]

This probably doesn't warrant it's own thread, but I am just curious for those of you who are a little more knowledgeably on how these systems/scheme's work.

 

I could be wrong, but it seems that Joe D's spread line worked for us while he was here from 2010-2012, and hasn't been too shabby for the Chargers and our former Guard who shall not be named (because for some reason it pisses people off around here ).

 

So, would it have worked or is it like putting a square peg in a round hole?

[Big C]

Chuck Reinhold?

 

[Malazan]

Chuck Reinhold?

 

Even after all this time, you people don't know his name...it was Chaswick Reingartenberger IV

[swnybillsfan]

it all depends i guess. i would think that coach d was a heck of an o-line coach and was responsible for teaching the blocking concepts desired by the oc. so i think he could have done a fine job. having said that, i could be very, very wrong.

[boyst]

His OL was very fluid and a very good fit for Fitz.

 

Someone asked me to go back and grade our OL for last year. I didn't do it as in depth as I could and I never shared much of it because it was so rudimentary and base set that it did not matter. They were straight up man on man blocking, account for the one in front of you and play hard dumb football.

 

Joe D had us playing aggressive attack football in zone system blocking that made the OL accountable for their scheme and defenders. We had smart agile lineman that could get to defenders wherever they were on the field, most importantly on sweeps, screens and find wherever Fitz would be scrambling behind them to attempt to protect him. Our OL now are maulers, road graders and big tough dumb monsters. They see, they hit.

 

Cordy Glenn is probably the most interesting of the group and I do not feel he would work with Joe D despite being our most valuable OL. He doesn't have it in the hips to swing around and seal outside edges like Joe D's offense would require - which is that of outside rushing, and the Gailey type offense. He is quick, he is extremely good but he is not designed to cover area quickly. He would start on almost all teams in the NFL at LT or 100% of the teams at either team.

 

Chris Williams is a misnomer. He doesn't fit our OL. He doesn't fit many OL's. He is to our OL now what Geoff Hangartner was to us several years ago. That is to say, both are offensive lineman in the NFL and grade out good enough to play pro football but do not offer the tools necessary build or rely upon. CWilliams will improve our OL only so much as adequacy can do. He is a C+ player, just like Hangartner was, who can improve upon several positions on the OL when you have a C- or C grade OL. In fact, CWilliams could slide to RG this week and likely surpass Pears level of play because he is C grade at blocking the run and blocking the pass.

 

Erik Pears is a B+ blocker on the run when it suits him D+ on moving around and finding a defender. A- blocking a head over defender D- on absorbing a rushing backer. He is the epitome of a OT playing OG. He can push defenders, he can move defenders and he can shut down bull rushes and he can contain his man and immobilize them. But, he can't find them, he can't get to them and he cannot sit back and let the blitzer or defender come to him. He has to get contact, he has to hit, he has to find someone and hit them. It's his style.

 

Henderson could be the most talented OL we have on this team. He has the ability to close off and box out defenders. He did this against a premier Cameron Wake this past weekend allowing for runs around the outside. He can move his butt/hips, unlike Pears, to seal the outside run lanes. This is a major reason Pears could not excel in the NFL at OT. He cannot take the speed of an outside blocker and turn them in or bounce them around the pocket. Henderson has shown the ability to do all of that in a highly skilled level. Looking at his play it is a wonder he was not a first round talent regardless of his behavior. If he had a better coach who could have allowed him to show his talent he would have been taken much earlier. Henderson masters his hips and leverage but I have not seen enough of him to grade his feet. If he has feet he would be the most suitable OL I've mentioned yet for Joe D. He might not start on 32 teams in the league right now but he'd start on at least half of them.

 

Eric Wood is our best OL. Who would know this? Who pays attention to the center of the line? Who would notice that he just shut downs defenders, moves throughout the pocket against 4-3 DL's or stops 34NTs from advancing in the pocket. He would fit in any OL scheme because he has the talent that an OC or OL coach would utilize. He is a legit, bona fide NFL starter.

 

Hope that helped ya D2D.

[dollars 2 donuts]

His OL was very fluid and a very good fit for Fitz.

 

Someone asked me to go back and grade our OL for last year. I didn't do it as in depth as I could and I never shared much of it because it was so rudimentary and base set that it did not matter. They were straight up man on man blocking, account for the one in front of you and play hard dumb football.

 

Joe D had us playing aggressive attack football in zone system blocking that made the OL accountable for their scheme and defenders. We had smart agile lineman that could get to defenders wherever they were on the field, most importantly on sweeps, screens and find wherever Fitz would be scrambling behind them to attempt to protect him. Our OL now are maulers, road graders and big tough dumb monsters. They see, they hit.

 

Cordy Glenn is probably the most interesting of the group and I do not feel he would work with Joe D despite being our most valuable OL. He doesn't have it in the hips to swing around and seal outside edges like Joe D's offense would require - which is that of outside rushing, and the Gailey type offense. He is quick, he is extremely good but he is not designed to cover area quickly. He would start on almost all teams in the NFL at LT or 100% of the teams at either team.

 

Chris Williams is a misnomer. He doesn't fit our OL. He doesn't fit many OL's. He is to our OL now what Geoff Hangartner was to us several years ago. That is to say, both are offensive lineman in the NFL and grade out good enough to play pro football but do not offer the tools necessary build or rely upon. CWilliams will improve our OL only so much as adequacy can do. He is a C+ player, just like Hangartner was, who can improve upon several positions on the OL when you have a C- or C grade OL. In fact, CWilliams could slide to RG this week and likely surpass Pears level of play because he is C grade at blocking the run and blocking the pass.

 

Erik Pears is a B+ blocker on the run when it suits him D+ on moving around and finding a defender. A- blocking a head over defender D- on absorbing a rushing backer. He is the epitome of a OT playing OG. He can push defenders, he can move defenders and he can shut down bull rushes and he can contain his man and immobilize them. But, he can't find them, he can't get to them and he cannot sit back and let the blitzer or defender come to him. He has to get contact, he has to hit, he has to find someone and hit them. It's his style.

 

Henderson could be the most talented OL we have on this team. He has the ability to close off and box out defenders. He did this against a premier Cameron Wake this past weekend allowing for runs around the outside. He can move his butt/hips, unlike Pears, to seal the outside run lanes. This is a major reason Pears could not excel in the NFL at OT. He cannot take the speed of an outside blocker and turn them in or bounce them around the pocket. Henderson has shown the ability to do all of that in a highly skilled level. Looking at his play it is a wonder he was not a first round talent regardless of his behavior. If he had a better coach who could have allowed him to show his talent he would have been taken much earlier. Henderson masters his hips and leverage but I have not seen enough of him to grade his feet. If he has feet he would be the most suitable OL I've mentioned yet for Joe D. He might not start on 32 teams in the league right now but he'd start on at least half of them.

 

Eric Wood is our best OL. Who would know this? Who pays attention to the center of the line? Who would notice that he just shut downs defenders, moves throughout the pocket against 4-3 DL's or stops 34NTs from advancing in the pocket. He would fit in any OL scheme because he has the talent that an OC or OL coach would utilize. He is a legit, bona fide NFL starter.

 

Hope that helped ya D2D.

 

Jboys, that was absolutely dynamite. Thank you.

[Jamesdangerman]

jboys, thank you. Well thought out and very well worded.

[Ohiostyle]

Impressive info, thanks a ton

[bowery4]

His OL was very fluid and a very good fit for Fitz.

 

Someone asked me to go back and grade our OL for last year. I didn't do it as in depth as I could and I never shared much of it because it was so rudimentary and base set that it did not matter. They were straight up man on man blocking, account for the one in front of you and play hard dumb football.

 

I am going to use red here, with the part I want to explain or partially disagree with here, nothing against what you have written Jboys62 but I do think there is more to it.

The bolded above I have to say you are wrong here, both schemes use zone blocking, Chan's was a quick read, spread, zone scheme vs Doug's which most of the time is a tight, read option, zone. It is tight because in most zone schemes you would have smaller Olinemen, who'd be a slight bit faster. In Doug's the tightness does a couple of things but one is accounting for bigger and slightly slower. It is also better for running (or at least should be). Chan's was not great for Bflo because teams could see by formation what was being run (and it didn't change up so much) and in the cold, you saw pass first a lot, which is fine if you don't have Brady and not Fitz. The gaps were larger too, which obviously got beat easier. Fitz was good at covering these defishences up but he was no Rivers. He was a tough SOB though.

 

The advantage with our scheme this year is we can line up in the same way and run different things, including zone schemes etc. There are good things about both styles and philosophies. But our new line is better suited for the new scheme and in some ways the new scheme is more versatile and more subtle. Chan's scheme was better for Fitz in that it was quick, read the field get out the short pass and the line runs up the field to block. Our new line stays in place longer and then releases to the 2nd level. So they have to be better linemen (in a way, big against big), it maybe that this is what is hindering our 2nd rounder at the moment too. Learning to sustain is harder and he was in a spread in college (I think). I also have to say here, I can't wait to see if this line and EJ develop, this is a solid scheme and it will look better as time goes by, if it works out.

 

Joe D had us playing aggressive attack football in zone system blocking that made the OL accountable for their scheme and defenders. We had smart agile lineman that could get to defenders wherever they were on the field, most importantly on sweeps, screens and find wherever Fitz would be scrambling behind them to attempt to protect him. Our OL now are maulers, road graders and big tough dumb monsters. They see, they hit.

 

Cordy Glenn is probably the most interesting of the group and I do not feel he would work with Joe D despite being our most valuable OL. He doesn't have it in the hips to swing around and seal outside edges like Joe D's offense would require - which is that of outside rushing, and the Gailey type offense. He is quick, he is extremely good but he is not designed to cover area quickly. He would start on almost all teams in the NFL at LT or 100% of the teams at either team.

 

So when he played for Chan/Joe he didn't work out well? He is a monster and this scheme does fit him (and Henderson) better.

 

Chris Williams is a misnomer. He doesn't fit our OL. He doesn't fit many OL's. He is to our OL now what Geoff Hangartner was to us several years ago. That is to say, both are offensive lineman in the NFL and grade out good enough to play pro football but do not offer the tools necessary build or rely upon. CWilliams will improve our OL only so much as adequacy can do. He is a C+ player, just like Hangartner was, who can improve upon several positions on the OL when you have a C- or C grade OL. In fact, CWilliams could slide to RG this week and likely surpass Pears level of play because he is C grade at blocking the run and blocking the pass.

 

I am trying to key more on our new Williams, need more time to judge what he is doing well or not.

 

Erik Pears is a B+ blocker on the run when it suits him D+ on moving around and finding a defender. A- blocking a head over defender D- on absorbing a rushing backer. He is the epitome of a OT playing OG. He can push defenders, he can move defenders and he can shut down bull rushes and he can contain his man and immobilize them. But, he can't find them, he can't get to them and he cannot sit back and let the blitzer or defender come to him. He has to get contact, he has to hit, he has to find someone and hit them. It's his style.

 

Guard is a different position then Tackle, give it time and he either gets it better or becomes more of a weakness, to me he is not getting low enough against tackles, they tend to start lower and stay down lower, he is a tall guy to be a guard. It is more straight forward, DTs not going around in the middle of the line, he should do better, aim and shoot. Not react so much (which was actually his weakness as a tackle, bad reactions and slight slowness,). Scheme is less of an issue here but he wasn't a perfect lineman in Chan/Joe's scheme either. His length is a weakness in the middle, I need more time seeing him play there.... I actually think Urbik was okay but is weak at run plays, I have yet to see Pears excel at that in the guard position too (he was good at it at times at tackle).

 

Henderson could be the most talented OL we have on this team. He has the ability to close off and box out defenders. He did this against a premier Cameron Wake this past weekend allowing for runs around the outside. He can move his butt/hips, unlike Pears, to seal the outside run lanes. This is a major reason Pears could not excel in the NFL at OT. He cannot take the speed of an outside blocker and turn them in or bounce them around the pocket. Henderson has shown the ability to do all of that in a highly skilled level. Looking at his play it is a wonder he was not a first round talent regardless of his behavior. If he had a better coach who could have allowed him to show his talent he would have been taken much earlier. Henderson masters his hips and leverage but I have not seen enough of him to grade his feet. If he has feet he would be the most suitable OL I've mentioned yet for Joe D. He might not start on 32 teams in the league right now but he'd start on at least half of them.

 

He will get better, he has room to grow but has obvious talent and I agree with you.

 

Eric Wood is our best OL. Who would know this? Who pays attention to the center of the line? Who would notice that he just shut downs defenders, moves throughout the pocket against 4-3 DL's or stops 34NTs from advancing in the pocket. He would fit in any OL scheme because he has the talent that an OC or OL coach would utilize. He is a legit, bona fide NFL starter.

 

Wood is kind of like Kyle, he can dominate and he occasionally miffs and it looks bad, very underrated line man by fans. I also think he fits both schemes very well. At the moment he is our 2nd best line man, Cordy is more important so I would go with him being #1.

 

Hope that helped ya D2D.

Edited September 19, 2014 by bowery4

[boyst]

I am going to use red here, with the part I want to explain or partially disagree with here, nothing against what you have written Jboys62 but I do think there is more to it.

The bolded above I have to say you are wrong here, both schemes use zone blocking, Chan's was a quick read, spread, zone scheme vs Doug's which most of the time is a tight, read option, zone. It is tight because in most zone schemes you would have smaller Olinemen, who'd be a slight bit faster. In Doug's the tightness does a couple of things but one is accounting for bigger and slightly slower. It is also better for running (or at least should be). Chan's was not great for Bflo because teams could see by formation what was being run (and it didn't change up so much) and in the cold, you saw pass first a lot, which is fine if you don't have Brady and not Fitz. The gaps were larger too, which obviously got beat easier. Fitz was good at covering these defishences up but he was no Rivers. He was a tough SOB though.

 

The advantage with our scheme this year is we can line up in the same way and run different things, including zone schemes etc. There are good things about both styles and philosophies. But our new line is better suited for the new scheme and in some ways the new scheme is more versatile and more subtle. Chan's scheme was better for Fitz in that it was quick, read the field get out the short pass and the line runs up the field to block. Our new line stays in place longer and then releases to the 2nd level. So they have to be better linemen (in a way, big against big), it maybe that this is what is hindering our 2nd rounder at the moment too. Learning to sustain is harder and he was in a spread in college (I think). I also have to say here, I can't wait to see if this line and EJ develop, this is a solid scheme and it will look better as time goes by, if it works out.

There is nothing I can disagree with there. With our current lineup we could not have run Joe D's scheme and with our former lineup we could not run today's scheme.

 

I think the speed of the power, if that makes sense, is why Kouijiajdfambilimbo is suffering. He is not strong enough but he does not have to be if he can get in to position fast enough and gain leverage - which might be better said that his mechanics are off. I need to see more of him, though. Either way, I am happy we invested so heavily in the OL this past year because it will pay dividends in years to come.

 

So when he played for Chan/Joe he didn't work out well? He is a monster and this scheme does fit him (and Henderson) better.

I didn't say that he did not workout well. He played very well but this scheme here is showcasing his level of elite play. Being able to block in different schemes, including this one, is impressive.

 

Guard is a different position then Tackle, give it time and he either gets it better or becomes more of a weakness, to me he is not getting low enough against tackles, they tend to start lower and stay down lower, he is a tall guy to be a guard. It is more straight forward, DTs not going around in the middle of the line, he should do better, aim and shoot. Not react so much (which was actually his weakness as a tackle, bad reactions and slight slowness,). Scheme is less of an issue here but he wasn't a perfect lineman in Chan/Joe's scheme either. His length is a weakness in the middle, I need more time seeing him play there.... I actually think Urbik was okay but is weak at run plays, I have yet to see Pears excel at that in the guard position too (he was good at it at times at tackle).

It is going to be very hard for him to get low when he is so tall. His first move is to always put his head up and look, too. This bothers me but not tremendously. If he can respond to coaching he will realize he does not need to do this to successfully block.

 

Wood is kind of like Kyle, he can dominate and he occasionally miffs and it looks bad, very underrated line man by fans. I also think he fits both schemes very well. At the moment he is our 2nd best line man, Cordy is more important so I would go with him being #1.

Wood is our best OL. Glenn is our most important. Henderson might be our most talented.

[MyHorseAteTheKid]

His OL was very fluid and a very good fit for Fitz.

 

Someone asked me to go back and grade our OL for last year. I didn't do it as in depth as I could and I never shared much of it because it was so rudimentary and base set that it did not matter. They were straight up man on man blocking, account for the one in front of you and play hard dumb football.

 

Joe D had us playing aggressive attack football in zone system blocking that made the OL accountable for their scheme and defenders. We had smart agile lineman that could get to defenders wherever they were on the field, most importantly on sweeps, screens and find wherever Fitz would be scrambling behind them to attempt to protect him. Our OL now are maulers, road graders and big tough dumb monsters. They see, they hit.

 

Cordy Glenn is probably the most interesting of the group and I do not feel he would work with Joe D despite being our most valuable OL. He doesn't have it in the hips to swing around and seal outside edges like Joe D's offense would require - which is that of outside rushing, and the Gailey type offense. He is quick, he is extremely good but he is not designed to cover area quickly. He would start on almost all teams in the NFL at LT or 100% of the teams at either team.

 

Chris Williams is a misnomer. He doesn't fit our OL. He doesn't fit many OL's. He is to our OL now what Geoff Hangartner was to us several years ago. That is to say, both are offensive lineman in the NFL and grade out good enough to play pro football but do not offer the tools necessary build or rely upon. CWilliams will improve our OL only so much as adequacy can do. He is a C+ player, just like Hangartner was, who can improve upon several positions on the OL when you have a C- or C grade OL. In fact, CWilliams could slide to RG this week and likely surpass Pears level of play because he is C grade at blocking the run and blocking the pass.

 

Erik Pears is a B+ blocker on the run when it suits him D+ on moving around and finding a defender. A- blocking a head over defender D- on absorbing a rushing backer. He is the epitome of a OT playing OG. He can push defenders, he can move defenders and he can shut down bull rushes and he can contain his man and immobilize them. But, he can't find them, he can't get to them and he cannot sit back and let the blitzer or defender come to him. He has to get contact, he has to hit, he has to find someone and hit them. It's his style.

 

Henderson could be the most talented OL we have on this team. He has the ability to close off and box out defenders. He did this against a premier Cameron Wake this past weekend allowing for runs around the outside. He can move his butt/hips, unlike Pears, to seal the outside run lanes. This is a major reason Pears could not excel in the NFL at OT. He cannot take the speed of an outside blocker and turn them in or bounce them around the pocket. Henderson has shown the ability to do all of that in a highly skilled level. Looking at his play it is a wonder he was not a first round talent regardless of his behavior. If he had a better coach who could have allowed him to show his talent he would have been taken much earlier. Henderson masters his hips and leverage but I have not seen enough of him to grade his feet. If he has feet he would be the most suitable OL I've mentioned yet for Joe D. He might not start on 32 teams in the league right now but he'd start on at least half of them.

 

Eric Wood is our best OL. Who would know this? Who pays attention to the center of the line? Who would notice that he just shut downs defenders, moves throughout the pocket against 4-3 DL's or stops 34NTs from advancing in the pocket. He would fit in any OL scheme because he has the talent that an OC or OL coach would utilize. He is a legit, bona fide NFL starter.

 

Hope that helped ya D2D.

Perhaps the most interesting and analytical post I have ever read on this board!!! Thank You!!!

[T master]

This probably doesn't warrant it's own thread, but I am just curious for those of you who are a little more knowledgeably on how these systems/scheme's work.

 

I could be wrong, but it seems that Joe D's spread line worked for us while he was here from 2010-2012, and hasn't been too shabby for the Chargers and our former Guard who shall not be named (because for some reason it pisses people off around here ).

 

So, would it have worked or is it like putting a square peg in a round hole?

 

If Marrone would have seen the forest for the trees he would have kept Joe D , B Dehaven , P Metzelars, & a couple of others from the Gailey regime because there were a lot of good things that Gailey had going on .

 

While i'm at it I'll rehash something that has been written about a bit here .

 

They should have kept Fitz seeing as they had a contract they had signed & had to pay him regardless if they kept him or released him as they did .

 

I don't know if it's ego or what but when a new coach comes in i don't see why they can't look at what they got & use the old adage "IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT"

 

We had 2 or more facets of the team when Marrone took over that were ranked top ten & you look at a guy that was your buddy & his unit was like 30th in the league , you bring him in to replace a top ten coach then you talk about "we will do what ever it takes to make the team better"

 

Can you imagine Coaching staff of

 

Marrone - HC - coaches kept & added to make new staff

Gailey - OC - Joe D - O line coach - Metzelars - TE coach - T Wheatley - RB coach

Pettine or Schwartz - DC - Pepper J - D line coach - D Henderson - DB coach

B Dehaven - ST coach

 

I know this is a pipe dream but the coaching staff would be a lot more play off ready if some coaches could get over their ego & not fix the things that weren't broke !!

Edited September 19, 2014 by T master