Kelly the Dog Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Okay; thanks. I think I understand that point. If the NFL approves the sale to Rogers with the understanding that he will move the team at some point, I am not sure whether the league would really care that there is litigation over whether the move could happen immediately (ie, Rogers tries to pay the buy out), or in 2020 (lease expires). Of course they would. There is no chance in hell that the NFL is going to allow a team to play in Buffalo for 5 years with 10,000 fans going to the games. No possible way. does not make sense to me, this argument. these guys are long thinkers not short thinkers, if they can make 200m per season somewhere else, and it costs them a 400m fine plus plus, they will do it. Because 200m over 30 years or 50 years, adds up. They cannot make 200m per season more. They probably can't make 20m more per season than the Bills do now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Thank you!! The odds of winning in court are about 1 in 1,000,000. Win what in court? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Win what in court? The right to pay the $400M fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 The right to pay the $400M fee. You mean the obligation? Like I demonstrated a non-buffalo buyer could have the highest bid and pay the fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zazie Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 You mean the obligation? Like I demonstrated a non-buffalo buyer could have the highest bid and pay the fee. Take the team out at midnight, deal with the court later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 You mean the obligation? Like I demonstrated a non-buffalo buyer could have the highest bid and pay the fee. Um, I think that you need to familiarize yourself with the lease. Take the team out at midnight, deal with the court later. ....you too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zazie Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Um, I think that you need to familiarize yourself with the lease. the fine is a kind of security deposit really. People break leases and lose their security deposit, all the time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Take the team out at midnight, deal with the court later. The fee is an obstable but certainly not insurmountable. Also consider the fee is tax deductible, so assuming a corporate tax rate of 35%, after tax the fee is $260mm. Not so onerous looking aNY more when we're talking billions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 the fine is a kind of security deposit really. People break leases and lose their security deposit, all the time.... No, it isn't. The fine exists only after a court battle that the county loses (in Erie County). It IS NOT a buyout. The fee is an obstable but certainly not insurmountable. Also consider the fee is tax deductible, so assuming a corporate tax rate of 35%, after tax the fee is $260mm. Not so onerous looking aNY more when we're talking billions. Again, the $400M penalty ONLY comes into play if the county loses a court battle (in Erie County Court) that they violated the lease. You cannot simply pay $400m and move the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zazie Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 No, it isn't. The fine exists only after a court battle that the county loses (in Erie County). It IS NOT a buyout. Again, the $400M penalty ONLY comes into play if the county loses a court battle (in Erie County Court) that they violated the lease. You cannot simply pay $400m and move the team. You move the team, what is the most they will fine you? you think it will be more than 400m? Possession is 9/10th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 No, it isn't. The fine exists only after a court battle that the county loses (in Erie County). It IS NOT a buyout. Again, the $400M penalty ONLY comes into play if the county loses a court battle (in Erie County Court) that they violated the lease. You cannot simply pay $400m and move the team. So its even better for the buyer. There's a chance they won't even pay the $260mm after tax charge/fee/fine/whatever u want to call it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 You move the team, what is the most they will fine you? you think it will be more than 400m? Possession is 9/10th. Um, I hope that you are messing with me. If so, I am the idiot. An injunction will be filed and the lease details that a fine is not an option. You need to prove that the county violated the lease (which you will never prove). If you did (1 in 1,000,000) then you get to pay $400m. Please tell me that you are kidding. If not, please go learn the lease and the issues at hand. So its even better for the buyer. There's a chance they won't even pay the $260mm after tax charge/fee/fine/whatever u want to call it. Now you have lost me too!! Please just read above^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 I apologize for hijacking this thread but this is the most important situation that the Bills have ever faced. It is something that we need to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zazie Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 I apologize for hijacking this thread but this is the most important situation that the Bills have ever faced. It is something that we need to understand. if you really think it is impossible for the team to just move and deal with the legal after the fact, you are quite naive. It has happened, it can happen again. Heck they can move the team and simply pay the lease amount per annum worst comes to worst. It is a pipe dream that that lease can really bind the Bills to Buffalo. that said, I have great hopes things will work out and the Bills can be in WNY for the next few years or longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) if you really think it is impossible for the team to just move and deal with the legal after the fact, you are quite naive. It has happened, it can happen again. Heck they can move the team and simply pay the lease amount per annum worst comes to worst. It is a pipe dream that that lease can really bind the Bills to Buffalo. that said, I have great hopes things will work out and the Bills can be in WNY for the next few years or longer. This isn't an apartment lease where you can just abandon it without repercussion. The corporation and government have a mutual interest in protecting the team's operation in that region. The lease is written in manner that is mutually beneficial. I promise you that it is impossible to simply up and move the team before 2020 for many reasons (I will stick to a few):-You will never get approval of relocation during the lease for fear of losing the anti-trust exemption. -The owner will face hundreds of millions of dollars and years in court to fight an agreement that the corporation that they bought negotiated. They would have to prove that this agreement was violated in Erie County Court (in all likelihood). The process that takes place in a dispute has been spelled out in the lease and non relocation agreement. -There is not a facility in Southern Ontario that meets NFL requirements. -2 of the 4 people that will pick the next buyer are Ralph's wife and niece. Do you think that he would set them up to become villains? If he had any intention of the team moving he would have just left that decision to lawyers and financial people. No offense, but I am not the one that is naive on the subject. I said it earlier but it is an important enough subject matter that we should educate ourselves on the process. There are lots of people on here (JW & Greg F in particular) that have provided some great stuff on it throughout this board. Edited June 8, 2014 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zazie Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 This isn't an apartment lease where you can just abandon it without repercussion. The corporation and government have a mutual interest in protecting the team's operation in that region. The lease is written in manner that is mutually beneficial. I promise you that it is impossible to simply up and move the team before 2020 for many reasons (I will stick to a few): -You will never get approval of relocation during the lease for fear of losing the anti-trust exemption. -The owner will face hundreds of millions of dollars and years in court to fight an agreement that the corporation that they bought negotiated. They would have to prove that this agreement was violated in Erie County Court (in all likelihood). The process that takes place in a dispute has been spelled out in the lease and non relocation agreement. -There is not a facility in Southern Ontario that meets NFL requirements. -2 of the 4 people that will pick the next buyer are Ralph's wife and niece. Do you think that he would set them up to become villains? If he had any intention of the team moving he would have just left that decision to lawyers and financial people. No offense, but I am not the one that is naive on the subject. I said it earlier but it is an important enough subject matter that we should educate ourselves on the process. There are lots of people on here (JW & Greg F in particular) that have provided some great stuff on it throughout this board. Pretty sure Ralph said on many occasions that the team would sell to the highest bidder when he died. Very sure that f they want to move they will find a way, despite the difficulties. But stay positive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Caveman Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) If $1.3B is more than the highest bid from buffalo buyer, trust has an obligation to sell to the $1.3B bidder. The trust is not under the obligation to sell to the highest bidder. They will sell to who they feel is the best bidder (presumably taking into account total sale package and likelihood of NFL approval, and possibly likelihood of the team moving.) Edited June 8, 2014 by Captain Caveman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) Pretty sure Ralph said on many occasions that the team would sell to the highest bidder when he died. Very sure that f they want to move they will find a way, despite the difficulties. But stay positive! What way will they find? I have specifically defined the legal ways that it will be prevented. If you are saying in 2020 that it is possible -absolutely. If you are saying before that -absolutely not. On the other point please see Captain Caveman's post above. I am going to bow out on this one. I must not be doing a good job articulating the facts because some believe that they are irrelevant. There is no "finding a way" before 2020. There are legitimate long term concerns but the team will be in WNY for the next few years no matter what. Edited June 8, 2014 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zazie Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Ok, Sure. Dream on. I hope they will stay but ALL leases can be broken and it is just a matter of how much it will cost, not whether it can be done at all. Legal Schmeagel. Money talks. Bills could easily be gone by 2015, all depends on new ownership and how much they want to get away. take off the blinders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 The trust is not under the obligation to sell to the highest bidder. They will sell to who they feel is the best bidder (presumably taking into account total sale package and likelihood of NFL approval, and possibly likelihood of the team moving.) Of course they're under obligation to sell to highest bidder, that's why its in a trust. They'll get sued for breach of fiduciary duty otherwise. Any bidder will be subject to NFL approval as a closing condition. Please folks wake up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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