Looking At The Renogiations, etc....

[MRW]

MRW. i agree whole heartledly(speeling) with your post. I also find it somewhat amazing that of the 4 teams left, three caoches who have almost total control. Conventional

wisdom says one needs a strong GM and coach, not one doing both jobs, and I tend to agree with that. However, these teams seem to defy that logic. The real kicker is that the Pats and the Eagles, the two most consistant teams over the last four years, seem to never have any cap issues. I may be wrong, but I think the Eagles are like $20M under the cap for next year and have a plethora of picks.

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The Pats do have Scott Pioli, who seems to work very well with Belichick. Can anyone tell me whether Belichick actually has the GM title, or is it Pioli, or Kraft? It's great that NE will likely be losing both coordinators this year, but I am bummed that Pioli didn't take a GM job to get out of Belichick's shadow. I think as long as they are both there NE will be tough to beat.

 

I guess that was my original point, that I am more convinced that ever that football is the ultimate team game, and overpaying for one or two players  just guts your team. Reid and Belichek seem better than others at spotting talant early in their career, and locking them up early. How often have you seen a Pat or Eagle worth a big contract come up for FA in yr 4 or 5. I am sure there are examples, but overall they restructure those rookie contracts in the 2nd or third year, tying the guy up until he is in his late 20's and , like I said, in peak EARNING years, not peak playing years. I believe Philly redid both of their starting cornerbacks this year in mid year, while the players were only in the 2nd year of 4 yr deals. Now, that is what I want to see out of TD

 

I want to see TD start locking down guys like McGee and WM now, not wait till their contract year. If we need to cut some vetereans to get this done , so be it. Tell ya this, we better be drafting some safetys, as those boys back there are getting old. I know, I know, they played great down the stretch, but thats where a GREAT gm comes in. Remeber those guys were CUT by the two teams favored to go the Bowl, and they seem to be doing just fine without them.

I am not sure when Mike Williams is a FA, I am guessing after 2006. Why not look at tying him up now, before he continues to mature and continues to get better as he did this year.

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Another good point here. I would also add that the Eagles are famous for squeezing as much out of the cap as possible by using bonus loopholes to get extra space the next year. Smart management, and I am surprised it is not more widely emulated. Of course most teams are still constantly struggling to deal with the cap.

 

And I definitely agree on Mike Williams, based on the progress he showed this year. He was a question mark but I think he has shown that he is worth keeping for the long term (although not a Pro-Bowler by any means yet). Oh, and McGee for sure.

 

Every team does at least need a few guys who are stars. New England probably has the fewest big name players I've seen on a championship team in a while, and even they have Dillon, Rodney Harrison, McGinest, Ty Law (even though he's hurt). Guys who step up in the big games and seem to elevate the play of those around them.

 

I'm not even sure what I'm trying to say here. I guess that it would be that there's nothing wrong with going after a big name, but you'd better know what you're getting. I'd say the Spikes signing worked out well for the Bills, but so has London Fletcher and Chris Villarial.

[AKC]

Rant? That was a very good post!

I counter it with the contention that Pace and Ogden led their teams to superbowls. It CAN work either way.

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And I'd add that at least in Ogden's case he was the "most important player" on the Raven's offense, the single most responsible for their ability to compete due to his owning the opposition's best athlete on most Sundays and virtually never requiring help, allowing the Ravens to focus the balance of their offensive line on stopping 3 or 4 defenders in pass coverage while giving them a reliable place to punch out the running game over Ogden's back. Ogden was/is the real deal at OT, a guy who plays both the run and pass with equal excellence. Pace is tilted towards excellent pass blocking while offering less in the running game, not unlike our own Jonas Jennings, a superior pass blocker with far more limited skills in the run game.

[MRW]

Ogden was/is the real deal at OT, a guy who plays both the run and pass with equal excellence. Pace is tilted towards  excellent pass blocking while offering less in the running game, not unlike our own Jonas Jennings, a superior pass blocker with far more limited skills in the run game.

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Interesting observation here, as this would indicate that Jennings' skillset is not ideal for the blueprint TD has stated many times he is working from of a power running team. Do you think this impacts TD's dealings with Jennings? I wonder if he might want to head in a different direction....

[GG]

  R. Rich mentioned OT Tra Thomas of Philly, which isn't a bad idea at all, if he doesn't draw a bidding war.

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And it would exorcise the ghosts of the RJ trade by completing the circle.

[AKC]

Interesting observation here, as this would indicate that Jennings' skillset is not ideal for the blueprint TD has stated many times he is working from of a power running team.  Do you think this impacts TD's dealings with Jennings?  I wonder if he might want to head in a different direction....

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Absolutely. I thing I'll be more surprised to see Jennings stay versus leaving simply because his value in a pure passing offense is so much higher than his value to us in the play action passing scheme we ran this past year. Jonas has maybe as fine a slide as there is in football, a huge asset in a pass first O, but he plays to high in the run game and that makes it tough for him to clear running space for his RBs. If Williams can keep all his marbles in one jar this off-season (read that come into camp in shape), it seems a logical scenario would be moving the LT-paid Williams to that side and finding a much better value in a RT FA or draft pick, allowing some more of the wealth to be spread at positions like TE where we don't have an NFL quality depth chart, in fact after #1 we have for all intents and purposes no depth at all and our #1 is no lock to come back 100%.

[MRW]

Absolutely. I thing I'll be more surprised to see Jennings stay versus leaving simply because his value in a pure passing offense is so much higher than his value to us in the play action passing scheme we ran this past year. Jonas has maybe as fine a slide as there is in football, a huge asset in a pass first O, but he plays to high in the run game and that makes it tough for him to clear running space for his RBs. If Williams can keep all his marbles in one jar this off-season (read that come into camp in shape), it seems a logical scenario would be moving the LT-paid Williams to that side and finding a much better value in a RT FA or draft pick, allowing some more of the wealth to be spread at positions like TE where we don't have an NFL quality depth chart, in fact after #1 we have for all intents and purposes no depth at all and our #1 is no lock to come back 100%.

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I appreciate this analysis as I can't really break apart line play beyond the obvious "he got beat" situations.

 

I was impressed with the progress Williams made under McNally, but at the same time his early season struggles would make me a bit... well, you know... about moving him to a brand new position. I do, though, have a fair degree of confidence in this coaching staff (for a change), so I expect if they go this route they would have thought through the possibilities.

 

As far as TEs, I agree. And even when our #1 is healthy I would not rate him as more than an adequate starter. Any good prospects in the draft or FA?

[d_wag]

It was not TD's "excuse". It was verified by MM and he mentioned that the "coaches" evaluated the situation. Muyst be nice in your nifty world where every thing that happens filters uphill.

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TD is the GM and has final say on ALL personel moves........if you want to expand the scope and put blame for the bad job on mularky and his staff, be my guest, but it's still TD's call and he bears the ultimate responsiblity........otherwise, why do we have a GM if the coaches are making all the calls on personel?? everything does filter up in an NFL organization.......

 

but anyway, if you want to include the whole group - they dropped the ball on him........we had a need, he would have filled that need, and we didn't even TRY to sign him.......keep spinning it if you want, but you can't change the fact he would have helped this team and the bills didn't recoginize that (and if they did, they were too cheap to do anything about it).......

[bartshan-83]

d waq...I understand that you think TD screwed up by passing on Kendell (I don't think many here would disagree), but to use that one situation over and over to describe TD as being cheap is pretty weak I think. He has been cheap on or undervalued needs and positions (K, G) but he has opened the check book on many cases and brought in some high priced talent.

 

-We lost Cowart (good call on TD since the injury really did ruin him) and he replaced him with one of the biggest FA MLBs available, Fletch.

 

-We needed LB help, he signed arguably the biggest FA of that year, Spikes.

 

-We needed CB help, he signed one of the bigger FA corners, Vincent.

 

I mean he has scimped (sp?) here and there but I think using the Kendall case 10 times to label him as cheap is unfair.

[AKC]

I appreciate this analysis as I can't really break apart line play beyond the obvious "he got beat" situations.

 

I was impressed with the progress Williams made under McNally, but at the same time his early season struggles would make me a bit... well, you know... about moving him to a brand new position.  I do, though, have a fair degree of confidence in this coaching staff (for a change), so I expect if they go this route they would have thought through the possibilities.

 

As far as TEs, I agree.  And even when our #1 is healthy I would not rate him as more than an adequate starter.  Any good prospects in the draft or FA?

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Williams benefitted greatly by having Chris Villarial at his side- his game went south against Pitt the moment Villarial left the field (although no one should have to suffer covering for Mike Pucillo's sorry ass).

 

Williams probably ended the season in about the shape he should have entered camp. Hopefully his unfortunate '04 offseason will be nothing more than a curve in his maturity process and he gives us a far better season next year- I expect him to.

 

On TEs wouldn't I love to see Bubba Franks in a Bills uni next year ;-)

 

Even a player like Ken Dilger would be a big positive on our roster assuming Campbell is back and healthy. Campbell IMO doesn't get anywhere near enough credit for his HUGELY improved blocking skills before the injury.

[Bill from NYC]

AKC, how about Cleeland or Becht?

[KnightRider]

Rant? That was a very good post!

I counter it with the contention that Pace and Ogden led their teams to superbowls. It CAN work either way.

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I think I'd cut Moulds, Bledsoe, Preileau and Henry to get Pace...

[AKC]

AKC, how about Cleeland or Becht?

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I've never watched much of Cleeland's blocking, what I have seen he didn't strike me as a reliable every down TE. He's a big kid for sure, but his receiving numbers have declined evey year he's been in the league.

 

Becht strikes me as a workhorse guy who fell out of their offense this past season- based on his big season in '03 he could arguably fill both skills. For some reason though he's never struck me as a difference maker and being a FA out of NY he may get a bigger payday than he's due. On the other hand, if he comes in at half of the Bubba Franks FA deal he might be a better choice for us. The intrigue about Franks though is that he is a true double threat and he has better than average skills after the catch for a big man. Bubba is the type of guy contemplated in the saying that "all the great TEs are playing power forward in the NBA".

[stuckincincy]

I've never watched much of Cleeland's blocking, what I have seen he didn't strike me as a reliable every down TE. He's a big kid for sure, but his receiving numbers have declined evey year he's been in the league.

 

Becht strikes me as a workhorse guy who fell out of their offense this past season- based on his big season in '03 he could arguably fill both skills. For some reason though he's never struck me as a difference maker and being a FA out of NY he may get a bigger payday than he's due. On the other hand, if he comes in at half of the Bubba Franks FA deal he might be a better choice for us. The intrigue about Franks though is that he is a true double threat and he even has better than average skills after the catch for a big man.

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I'd guess your thoughts about Becht are correct. I see a NYJ game once in a blue moon, but I suppose he got more looks in '03 because of Martin's nagging injury problem that year.

 

And I think he must be at least adequate in blocking...Martin's a fine running back but like any rb, the blocking has to be there. I don't remember, but didn't Becht re-sign with the Jets coming into the '04 season? Dunno...

[d_wag]

d waq...I understand that you think TD screwed up by passing on Kendell (I don't think many here would disagree), but to use that one situation over and over to describe TD as being cheap is pretty weak I think. He has been cheap on or undervalued needs and positions (K, G) but he has opened the check book on many cases and brought in some high priced talent.

 

-We lost Cowart (good call on TD since the injury really did ruin him) and he replaced him with one of the biggest FA MLBs available, Fletch.

 

-We needed LB help, he signed arguably the biggest FA of that year, Spikes.

 

-We needed CB help, he signed one of the bigger FA corners, Vincent.

 

I mean he has scimped (sp?) here and there but I think using the Kendall case 10 times to label him as cheap is unfair.

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bart........i'm only bringing it up because people are disagreeing that TD screwed up on that move........hiding behind excuses like "scheme" is just ridiculous to me.......can you imagine if TD ignored spikes in free agency because he didn't fit our "scheme" and instead signed a 2nd rate talent to play the position at 1/3 the cost? -- people would have been up in arms.......but some people apparantly find that acceptable in kendall's situation.......

 

i think overall, TD is cheap.......some people on this board like that quality, but i don't.........i can point to other examples if you like:

 

1) sam adams -- he let SA hang out in free agency for quite some time because he wouldn't up his offer a little more to get him in the fold.......it worked, but if someone else would have stepped up we would never have seen SA in a bills uniform......

 

2) antoine winfield -- this is where the excuses will fly, but i think if TD gives him a FAIR offer the year before his free agency we get him at a bargain price.........instead TD lowballs him, let's him play out his contract, and then winfield steps into a huge offer that we had no chance of matching.....i hope the same thing doesn't happen to clements because TD won't show faith in him the year before his free agency......

 

3) jonas jennings -- jonas will command more now then he would have last spring.......but TD lowballed him as well, and now he's headed for free agency and out the door when a legit offer would have locked him up.......again, this is where we'll see excuses ("he doesn't want to be here.....it's not TD's fault, it's all on jennings.....blah blah blah"), but i see other teams locking up their good young talent and i can't figure out why we can't do the same thing.......

 

this also traces back to his PIT days, where he annually let good, young players walk out the door because he didn't want to reward them.......i'd like to see our good young players retained......we spend alot of time and effort developing them, and it's a shame to watch good young talent like winfield and jennings walk out the door because we won't cough up the bucks (like other teams do) to reward their talent........

[34-78-83]

TD is the GM and has final say on ALL personel moves........if you want to expand the scope and put blame for the bad job on mularky and his staff, be my guest, but it's still TD's call and he bears the ultimate responsiblity........otherwise, why do we have a GM if the coaches are making all the calls on personel?? everything does filter up in an NFL organization.......

 

but anyway, if you want to include the whole group - they dropped the ball on him........we had a need, he would have filled that need, and we didn't even TRY to sign him.......keep spinning it if you want, but you can't change the fact he would have helped this team and the bills didn't recoginize that (and if they did, they were too cheap to do anything about it).......

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Again I'm not so sure he would have helped as much as you think. Some lineman are good in any scheme , and Kendall is not one of those linemen. He is a lightweight with poor upper body strength and would be suited for a "denver-esque" (or Jets for that matter) offense that uses alot of pulling guards, traps, etc. and not the hat on hat, mostly straight ahead style that the Bills implemented. Signing a guy like that could end up hurting a team (and their scheme) more than helping it. Square peg, round hole. The guy WAS evaluated as an option, and dismissed. None of that is spin. If you don't understand the x's and o's behind certain decisions (which you don't in this case), I can see where it would be easy to simply blame the man at the top.

[d_wag]

Again I'm not so sure he would have helped as much as you think. Some lineman are good in any scheme , and Kendall is not one of those linemen. He is a lightweight with poor upper body strength and would be suited for a "denver-esque" (or Jets for that matter) offense that uses alot of pulling guards, traps, etc. and not the hat on hat, mostly straight ahead style that the Bills implemented. Signing a guy like that could end up hurting a team (and their scheme) more than helping it. Square peg, round hole. The guy WAS evaluated as an option, and dismissed. None of that is spin.

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bart.......see what i'm talking about?

 

"sorry bills fan, we have looked at takeo spikes and he doesn't fit our scheme........we will not be pursuing him and instead we will retain eddie robinson for another year"

[34-78-83]

bart.......see what i'm talking about?

 

"sorry bills fan, we have looked at takeo spikes and he doesn't fit our scheme........we will not be pursuing him and instead we will retain eddie robinson for another year"

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Nice example smart guy. Makes a lot of sense

btw. I edited the last sentence of my post that you just quoted. I think that may be the real issue here

[d_wag]

Nice example smart guy. Makes a lot of sense 

btw. I edited the last sentence of my post that you just quoted. I think that may be the real issue here 

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i understand scheme, and i also understand that kendall would have helped this team ALOT.......he is better then tucker, he is better then smith, and he would have solidified the middle of our line.......like i said, he's played great in 3 different schemes -- what makes you think he wouldn't have played great in ours?? oh that's right, we're not supposed to disagree with coaches decisions, even though they are human and make mistakes as well.........

[MRW]

bart........i'm only bringing it up because people are disagreeing that TD screwed up on that move........hiding behind excuses like "scheme" is just ridiculous to me.......can you imagine if TD ignored spikes in free agency because he didn't fit our "scheme" and instead signed a 2nd rate talent to play the position at 1/3 the cost? -- people would have been up in arms.......but some people apparantly find that acceptable in kendall's situation.......

 

i think overall, TD is cheap.......some people on this board like that quality, but i don't.........i can point to other examples if you like:

 

1) sam adams -- he let SA hang out in free agency for quite some time because he wouldn't up his offer a little more to get him in the fold.......it worked, but if someone else would have stepped up we would never have seen SA in a bills uniform......

 

2) antoine winfield -- this is where the excuses will fly, but i think if TD gives him a FAIR offer the year before his free agency we get him at a bargain price.........instead TD lowballs him, let's him play out his contract, and then winfield steps into a huge offer that we had no chance of matching.....i hope the same thing doesn't happen to clements because TD won't show faith in him the year before his free agency......

 

3) jonas jennings -- jonas will command more now then he would have last spring.......but TD lowballed him as well, and now he's headed for free agency and out the door when a legit offer would have locked him up.......again, this is where we'll see excuses ("he doesn't want to be here.....it's not TD's fault, it's all on jennings.....blah blah blah"), but i see other teams locking up their good young talent and i can't figure out why we can't do the same thing.......

 

this also traces back to his PIT days, where he annually let good, young players walk out the door because he didn't want to reward them.......i'd like to see our good young players retained......we spend alot of time and effort developing them, and it's a shame to watch good young talent like winfield and jennings walk out the door because we won't cough up the bucks (like other teams do) to reward their talent........

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It seems to me like you've arrived at the conclusion "TD is cheap" and are viewing everything in that light. Sorry, but it seems like you are really biased and are unwilling to acknowledge that there might be valid reasons for the decisions you think were bad.

 

Let's look at your examples.

 

1. Sam Adams. Seriously? The fact is we did get Sam Adams and he's performed very well for us at a great price. Would you feel better if we paid him $7 million a year?

2. Winfield. Sorry, I don't think Winfield was going to forgo a big contract. You may disagree, but your speculation is hardly evidence for TD being cheap. Corners are paid a huge premium in the league.

3. Jennings. Ditto for left tackles. Look at the market for tackles and tell me what you think would be a fair offer for Jennings. Bear in mind when you do that Jennings is good, but can't be placed in the upper echelon of tackles (IMO) but might get an inflated contract anyway. Is he worth it?

 

Some other examples to counter yours:

Takeo Spikes - big contract

Lawyer Milloy

Troy Vincent

Eric Moulds back in '01

Aaron Schobel

 

Teams can't keep all their players year to year. You may disagree with some of the decisions TD has made, but I think the only way you can conclude he's been "cheap" is to start out with that conclusion.

[todd]

Not true. Donahoe has spent lots of money on good players. Moulds, Takeo, Fletcher, etc. Saying that he is cheap is just silly. It's beyong being wrong, it's just silly.

 

well that is a huge blunder on TD's part, no?

 

obviously he would have helped the team.......obviously we had a need there........obviously it would have been a solid move.......so if it wasn't about money, why didn't he get him in here? attitude? he didn't seem to cause any problems in NY, so i guess TD misjudged that as well........

 

i think it was about money, plain and simple........TD didn't want to pay the bucks and wanted to get by with "bargain bin " talent......jets, on the other hand, weren't afraid to spend and reaped the rewards (i.e. playoffs).......

 

it's amazing how people will defend EVERYTHING donahoe does......i like the guy, he's a good GM, but he's not perfect, and in this case he screwed up.......he over-estimated our OL, and we paid for it........another solid guard and we are in the playoffs, but TD miscalculated..........

 

it's okay to admit it - it doesn't make you a "bad" bills fan to call out the GM for a bad move......but hey, if you want to be a sheep, be my guest........

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