CJ Spiller Feature in the Buffalo News

[K-9]

In your original post, you stated that you found it "laughable" that Spiller could get 2000 yds and immediately followed it up with the fact that it took him 3 years to gain 2000 yards. The OJ comparison was made simply to point out that what CJ Spiller has rushed for to this point in his career has zero correlation to whether or not he could rush for 2000 yards in a season. That was the end of the comparison... You have then gone on about how you do not believe he can carry a full workload because of his size and the violent hits. However, (1) there is a long list of running backs with similar size to Spiller that were more than capable of carrying a full work load, and (2) I'm not sure Spiller has taken any more violent hits than any other running back (By the way, it wasn't a violent hit in Cleveland, it was the way he landed with the defender on top of him). Every running back has moments where they "hobble" off the field. I really haven't noticed Spiller doing it any more often than any other player.

 

In the end, you assume the reason he hasn't been given more of a workload is his lack of durability. You are certainly entitled to your opinion that he will never be able to carry a full workload. However, realize that it is only that - an opinion. I am only pointing out that you really have offered no compelling arguments as to why you believe what you believe.

 

True, it was a freak landing.

 

And the hit against Washington wasn't a hit at all. Somebody spiked him on his knee. So neither is an example of a violent hit by ANY stretch of the word.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[BADOLBILZ]

In your original post, you stated that you found it "laughable" that Spiller could get 2000 yds and immediately followed it up with the fact that it took him 3 years to gain 2000 yards. The OJ comparison was made simply to point out that what CJ Spiller has rushed for to this point in his career has zero correlation to whether or not he could rush for 2000 yards in a season. That was the end of the comparison... You have then gone on about how you do not believe he can carry a full workload because of his size and the violent hits. However, (1) there is a long list of running backs with similar size to Spiller that were more than capable of carrying a full work load, and (2) I'm not sure Spiller has taken any more violent hits than any other running back (By the way, it wasn't a violent hit in Cleveland, it was the way he landed with the defender on top of him). Every running back has moments where they "hobble" off the field. I really haven't noticed Spiller doing it any more often than any other player.

 

In the end, you assume the reason he hasn't been given more of a workload is his lack of durability. You are certainly entitled to your opinion that he will never be able to carry a full workload. However, realize that it is only that - an opinion. I am only pointing out that you really have offered no compelling arguments as to why you believe what you believe.

 

Whether a 7 year sample size or any of the other statistics I provided is compelling enough evidence for you is also simply YOUR opinion. I have been offering mostly correct opinions on this board since it's inception. You just don't want to argue with facts or figures.....but rather your heart. Which is sweet but misguided.

 

As for the issue of the punishment Spiller takes......the hits aren't all about head to head collisions...it is any instance that he takes a hard impact. I am well aware that Spiller fell down on what looked like an innocent play in Cleveland and was sidelined the rest of the day and there was concern about him being able to play the following week.

 

It didn't look like anything, but it hurt Spiller.

 

The spike in the endzone.......some guys roll off such contact, others absorb it. Proof? Because you almost never see it. On the replays it looked like NOTHING. A glancing blow. CJ looked like he was going to need the gator at one point. If you get spiked, you know there is no structural damage.....just get up and run off the field. The guy had to be helped off with his arms over two trainers. He couldn't put any weight on it. Very odd.

 

As an extreme example, look at the difference between a Ryan Fitzpatrick and Kevin on the Kolb. Fitz routinely ran and dove head first for first downs and the hits didn't bother him. KoK was tackled routinely in the open field by Alex Carrington last year and dislocated a shoulder, his rib cage and got a concussion. The concussion that ended his career in Washington was a glancing blow as well. Some players absorb contact better than others. KoK much less so than Fitz. Spiller less so than other top RB's IMO.......and as I stated......perhaps that is also the opinion of his coaches for the past 7 years...........and that matters when you are talking about putting up the 350-375 carries in a season it would take him to get 2,000 yards.

 

Like I said.......I am all for seeing this 2,000 yard season and I have no doubt that CJ can put up 180+ yard games and string some together......but I just don't see any proof that he can sustain it.

[billsfan1959]

Whether a 7 year sample size or any of the other statistics I provided is compelling enough evidence for you is also simply YOUR opinion. I have been offering mostly correct opinions on this board since it's inception. You just don't want to argue with facts or figures.....but rather your heart. Which is sweet but misguided.

 

As for the issue of the punishment Spiller takes......the hits aren't all about head to head collisions...it is any instance that he takes a hard impact. I am well aware that Spiller fell down on what looked like an innocent play in Cleveland and was sidelined the rest of the day and there was concern about him being able to play the following week.

 

It didn't look like anything, but it hurt Spiller.

 

The spike in the endzone.......some guys roll off such contact, others absorb it. Proof? Because you almost never see it. On the replays it looked like NOTHING. A glancing blow. CJ looked like he was going to need the gator at one point. If you get spiked, you know there is no structural damage.....just get up and run off the field. The guy had to be helped off with his arms over two trainers. He couldn't put any weight on it. Very odd.

 

As an extreme example, look at the difference between a Ryan Fitzpatrick and Kevin on the Kolb. Fitz routinely ran and dove head first for first downs and the hits didn't bother him. KoK was tackled routinely in the open field by Alex Carrington last year and dislocated a shoulder, his rib cage and got a concussion. The concussion that ended his career in Washington was a glancing blow as well. Some players absorb contact better than others. KoK much less so than Fitz. Spiller less so than other top RB's IMO.......and as I stated......perhaps that is also the opinion of his coaches for the past 7 years...........and that matters when you are talking about putting up the 350-375 carries in a season it would take him to get 2,000 yards.

 

Like I said.......I am all for seeing this 2,000 yard season and I have no doubt that CJ can put up 180+ yard games and string some together......but I just don't see any proof that he can sustain it.

 

I am not arguing for or against anything here. Nobody in this thread predicted CJ Spiller would have a 2000 yard rushing season and eventually make the hall of fame - that came from a news article. My point here is this: I have no idea what Spiller will or will not be able to do and neither do you. I wasn't supporting the idea, I was simply responding to your idea that a 2000 yard season was "laughable." I am not leading with my heart, nor am I ignoring facts - because you haven't provided any. To say because he hasn't carried the ball 20-25 times a game over the last seven seasons is predictive of his ability to do so in the future is nonsensical. If you were to show me him breaking down over and over when he tried to cary the ball that much, then it would be a different story - but that is not the case.

 

As far as this perception of fragility you have of Spiller: again, I haven't seen any proof of that. You used two instances over the last three years. First, you used what happened to him in Cleveland as an example of taking vicious hits. Now you want to call it an innocent play that looked like nothing. That is not a fact you are presenting, but, rather, vacillating interpretations. The truth is that it was nether vicious nor innocent. It was exactly what it was: landing on his shoulder with the full weight of the defender on top of it. And how much time did he miss? And the play in the Washington game? Really? He was out of the game for all of a series? Now all of a sudden he's equivalent to Kevin Kolb? Do you know how many times I watched Thurman Thomas hobble off the field, or be helped to the sidelines by players and/or staff, or miss playing time because of injury?

 

We'll just agree to disagree. I think my position is absolutely reasonable: I have no idea if CJ Spiller will be able to sustain 18-25 carries a game; however, I have seen no evidence whatsoever indicating he couldn't. We will just have to wait and see.

[K-9]

I am not arguing for or against anything here. Nobody in this thread predicted CJ Spiller would have a 2000 yard rushing season and eventually make the hall of fame - that came from a news article. My point here is this: I have no idea what Spiller will or will not be able to do and neither do you. I wasn't supporting the idea, I was simply responding to your idea that a 2000 yard season was "laughable." I am not leading with my heart, nor am I ignoring facts - because you haven't provided any. To say because he hasn't carried the ball 20-25 times a game over the last seven seasons is predictive of his ability to do so in the future is nonsensical. If you were to show me him breaking down over and over when he tried to cary the ball that much, then it would be a different story - but that is not the case.

 

As far as this perception of fragility you have of Spiller: again, I haven't seen any proof of that. You used two instances over the last three years. First, you used what happened to him in Cleveland as an example of taking vicious hits. Now you want to call it an innocent play that looked like nothing. That is not a fact you are presenting, but, rather, vacillating interpretations. The truth is that it was nether vicious nor innocent. It was exactly what it was: landing on his shoulder with the full weight of the defender on top of it. And how much time did he miss? And the play in the Washington game? Really? He was out of the game for all of a series? Now all of a sudden he's equivalent to Kevin Kolb? Do you know how many times I watched Thurman Thomas hobble off the field, or be helped to the sidelines by players and/or staff, or miss playing time because of injury?

 

We'll just agree to disagree. I think my position is absolutely reasonable: I have no idea if CJ Spiller will be able to sustain 18-25 carries a game; however, I have seen no evidence whatsoever indicating he couldn't. We will just have to wait and see.

 

The plain truth is that Spiller seldom gets hit in a vicious manner because it's difficult to square up on the guy. Countless RBs throughout the ages have been the same way. Due to their physical superiority, they just don't present themselves to be hit very hard most of the time. Spiller is one of those guys. Always has been.

 

And you're 100% right, we'll all just have to wait and see. I'm most anxious to see how they isolate Spiller in the passing game. He gets open deep all the time, presents matchup problems, and we finally have a guy that can actually out throw his speed.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited September 2, 2013 by K-9

[BADOLBILZ]

I am not arguing for or against anything here. Nobody in this thread predicted CJ Spiller would have a 2000 yard rushing season and eventually make the hall of fame - that came from a news article. My point here is this: I have no idea what Spiller will or will not be able to do and neither do you. I wasn't supporting the idea, I was simply responding to your idea that a 2000 yard season was "laughable." I am not leading with my heart, nor am I ignoring facts - because you haven't provided any. To say because he hasn't carried the ball 20-25 times a game over the last seven seasons is predictive of his ability to do so in the future is nonsensical. If you were to show me him breaking down over and over when he tried to cary the ball that much, then it would be a different story - but that is not the case.

 

As far as this perception of fragility you have of Spiller: again, I haven't seen any proof of that. You used two instances over the last three years. First, you used what happened to him in Cleveland as an example of taking vicious hits. Now you want to call it an innocent play that looked like nothing. That is not a fact you are presenting, but, rather, vacillating interpretations. The truth is that it was nether vicious nor innocent. It was exactly what it was: landing on his shoulder with the full weight of the defender on top of it. And how much time did he miss? And the play in the Washington game? Really? He was out of the game for all of a series? Now all of a sudden he's equivalent to Kevin Kolb? Do you know how many times I watched Thurman Thomas hobble off the field, or be helped to the sidelines by players and/or staff, or miss playing time because of injury?

 

We'll just agree to disagree. I think my position is absolutely reasonable: I have no idea if CJ Spiller will be able to sustain 18-25 carries a game; however, I have seen no evidence whatsoever indicating he couldn't. We will just have to wait and see.

 

i also would find it laughable if EJ Manuel felt he could throw for 5,000 yards as a rookie.....but the only evidence I have that he couldn't do it is past results. That is how it's generally done. CJ has never even run for 1300 yards in a season.....let alone 2,000. He has only had two seasons where he exceeded 1,000 in seven years. Believe what you want. I didn't say it couldn't happen either......I just doubt it strongly enough to think it's funny to even start putting that out there to the public. Time will tell.

[K-9]

i also would find it laughable if EJ Manuel felt he could throw for 5,000 yards as a rookie.....but the only evidence I have that he couldn't do it is past results. That is how it's generally done. CJ has never even run for 1300 yards in a season.....let alone 2,000. He has only had two seasons where he exceeded 1,000 in seven years. Believe what you want. I didn't say it couldn't happen either......I just doubt it strongly enough to think it's funny to even start putting that out there to the public. Time will tell.

 

So it's "laughable" when people set high goals for themselves?

 

Was it "laughable" when Reggie McKenzie set 2,000 yards as the goal for OJ in '73 BEFORE the season even started? I mean his best season was 1251 yards up to that point. You would have thought McKenzie was out of his mind and laughed based on that alone.

 

You know what they say about reaching for the stars, don't you?

 

Well, then again, maybe you don't.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited September 3, 2013 by K-9

[dave mcbride]

If you are going to be contrary.....please, at least have a point to it.

 

Yes, OJ was a man amongst boys. A 212 pound RB in 1973 is the physical equivalent of a 240 pound back today.

 

 

I didn't start the OJ comparisons in this thread, I just finished them.

 

The thing I see with CJ that makes it hard for me to envision him taking on a 350 carry workload is that he takes some violent hits.

 

He is elusive in the open field but he absorbs a great deal of impact for a smaller/elusive type RB.

 

We saw this a week ago in Washington, we saw it in Cleveland last year, he hobbled off the field a number of times his first couple seasons and truthfully I have been seeing it all the way back to his Clemson days.

 

Which I think is the root of why his coaches have not given him a bigger workload. If he is injured and loses ANY of his speed, what good is he to your running game? He is more valuable with a spread field on a passing down than he is running up the middle behind a FB IMO......but there is the matter of justifying his salary/draft position and that almost dictates that he become a workhorse and let the chips fall where they may.

 

I think he is a tough guy but the hits are going to take a toll on him in a way that a bigger back they probably would not.......or in a way that a gliding runner who doesn't absorb hits so violently.....see CJ2K...would not.

 

The point is that you claimed that since Spiller was a year older at 26 than OJ was entering his fourth season, he somehow had more tread on the tires. Your words, not mine. That's the point. Those tackles in JUCO football count (on crappy fields, I'm sure), as does track when it comes to taking a pounding on the knees (the injury that ultimately laid OJ low--cartilage damage from years of such pounding). I'm not being contrary - I'm pointing out that you're wrong about something (something you do in nearly every thread you post in to other posters) and you appear to be trying to extricate yourself from it by insulting me (i.e., "please, at least have a point."). Also, you're not right about OJ's size - he was entirely average if you look at the top 15 of the NFL's top rushers in 1970: http://www.pro-footb...970/rushing.htm . Finally, let's keep it civil and avoid snark.

 

Incidentally, I don't disagree with your assessment of Spiller, although I do disagree with you to an extent regarding the whole concept of "injury prone" (which we've wrestled over before). I don't think Spiller is injury prone, at least by NFL standards given that he's missed almost no time in three seasons so far. It's not worth going down that road again, however.

Edited September 3, 2013 by dave mcbride

[billsfan1959]

So it's "laughable" when people set high goals for themselves?

 

Was it "laughable" when Reggie McKenzie set 2,000 yards as the goal for OJ in '73 BEFORE the season even started? I mean his best season was 1251 yards up to that point. You would have thought McKenzie was out of his mind and laughed based on that alone.

 

You know what they say about reaching for the stars, don't you?

 

Well, then again, maybe you don't.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

+ 10

 

And the history of sports is replete with examples of athletes achieving goals they had never come close to reaching before - and goals that nobody had ever reached before.

 

i also would find it laughable if EJ Manuel felt he could throw for 5,000 yards as a rookie.....but the only evidence I have that he couldn't do it is past results. That is how it's generally done. CJ has never even run for 1300 yards in a season.....let alone 2,000. He has only had two seasons where he exceeded 1,000 in seven years. Believe what you want. I didn't say it couldn't happen either......I just doubt it strongly enough to think it's funny to even start putting that out there to the public. Time will tell.

 

I think that is why I responded to you in the first place. It is one thing to have doubt. Using the term "laughable" goes beyond doubting the athlete in question - it sounds almost derisive. Which would be fine if the athlete deserved it and you had facts to back it up. In this instance, neither exists.

[K-9]

+ 10

 

And the history of sports is replete with examples of athletes achieving goals they had never come close to reaching before - and goals that nobody had ever reached before.

 

 

 

I think that is why I responded to you in the first place. It is one thing to have doubt. Using the term "laughable" goes beyond doubting the athlete in question - it sounds almost derisive. Which would be fine if the athlete deserved it and you had facts to back it up. In this instance, neither exists.

 

The most important aspect of the entire conversation is that Spiller is of the mindset to establish these goals in the first place. He seems well grounded in a work ethic that he's followed for a long time and one that has produced results. If he doesn't achieve them, it won't be for lack of preparation and effort. And that's the point.

 

It takes a special kind of jaded dweeb to pooh-pooh that concept.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[BADOLBILZ]

The point is that you claimed that since Spiller was a year older at 26 than OJ was entering his fourth season, he somehow had more tread on the tires. Your words, not mine. That's the freaking point. Those tackles in JUCO football count, as does track when it comes to a pounding on the knees (the injury that ultimately laid OJ low--cartilage damage from years of pounding). I'm not being contrary - I'm pointing out that you're wrong about something (something you do in nearly every thread you post in to other posters) and you're trying to weasel out of it by insulting me (i.e., "please, at least have a point."). Also, you're not right about OJ's size - he was entirely average if you look at the top 15 of the NFL's top rushers in 1970: http://www.pro-footb...970/rushing.htm . Finally, let's keep it civil. Like sarcasm, snark is a weapon of the weak.

 

Those were NOT my words. Hence my question about what your point was. I never said ANYTHING about tread on tires. I wouldn't compare the two in that regard. They aren't the same back. And my point about OJ's size versus CJ's wasn't about the average size of the backs of that day, but the average size of the lineman VS the backs. CJ is giving up about 80-100 pounds to NFL lineman today. OJ was giving up about 40-50. That's a big difference at impact. Naturally, the NFL has changed and the power running game is not nearly as valued but if it were, those backs would be the 230-240 pound variety. At 6'2" and 212 pounds OJ was a much bigger man relative to his defensive opposition of that era. My point regarding the age comparison was that CJ has 1,000 less yards than OJ at the same age and the amount of yardage he would require to get into the HOF is probably at minimum 3,000-4,000 more. And that might be conservative. I think 12,000 yards from from the goal at 26 is a bit of a chasm.......perhaps you think not.

 

THOSE are the words from my mouth.

 

If you don't like the snark then stop jumping on things I write with assumptions about things that aren't written. You did the same thing a week ago in another thread. Do I do the same to you? If I disagreed with something you wrote and then was uncertain if I had misquoted you I would go back and check that before I snapped back and told you that those were your words. And if I did, I would apologize. The first time was a wtf? The second time is what is your problem? You obviously have a pre-conceived notion about what I am going to say.....and these are nuanced arguments so putting words in my mouth doesn't work.

[bills7834]

Yes, OJ was a man amongst boys. A 212 pound RB in 1973 is the physical equivalent of a 240 pound back today. and then you say this And my point about OJ's size versus CJ's wasn't about the average size of the backs of that day, but the average size of the lineman VS the backs. CJ is giving up about 80-100 pounds to NFL lineman today. OJ was giving up about 40-50. That's a big difference at impact.

 

I really don't know what your issue is with CJ. You seem to have an issue with everything he does. Last year was the most painful year of football for me to watch in many years. When Chan would pull him off the field I would just get sick to my stomach.

 

The way I read the aritcle and I could be wrong is CJ didn't say all of those things. They were not in quotes.

 

I'll be the first person to say it in this thread. I believe CJ Spiller will get 2000 yards this season. I think he has the skill set to surpass that mark. If they run him like they say they will and he stays healthy he will reach the 2000 yard mark. I think having a roookie QB helps him in that they will want to bring him along slowly like Big Ben and they will lean heavily on the running game.

Edited September 3, 2013 by bills7834

[dave mcbride]

Those were NOT my words. Hence my question about what your point was. I never said ANYTHING about tread on tires. I wouldn't compare the two in that regard. They aren't the same back. And my point about OJ's size versus CJ's wasn't about the average size of the backs of that day, but the average size of the lineman VS the backs. CJ is giving up about 80-100 pounds to NFL lineman today. OJ was giving up about 40-50. That's a big difference at impact. Naturally, the NFL has changed and the power running game is not nearly as valued but if it were, those backs would be the 230-240 pound variety. At 6'2" and 212 pounds OJ was a much bigger man relative to his defensive opposition of that era. My point regarding the age comparison was that CJ has 1,000 less yards than OJ at the same age and the amount of yardage he would require to get into the HOF is probably at minimum 3,000-4,000 more. And that might be conservative. I think 12,000 yards from from the goal at 26 is a bit of a chasm.......perhaps you think not.

 

THOSE are the words from my mouth.

 

If you don't like the snark then stop jumping on things I write with assumptions about things that aren't written. You did the same thing a week ago in another thread. Do I do the same to you? If I disagreed with something you wrote and then was uncertain if I had misquoted you I would go back and check that before I snapped back and told you that those were your words. And if I did, I would apologize. The first time was a wtf? The second time is what is your problem? You obviously have a pre-conceived notion about what I am going to say.....and these are nuanced arguments so putting words in my mouth doesn't work.

 

I don't think it's worth defending my point further or challenging you at this stage simply to "win" the argument because in the grand scheme of things it's unimportant. Moreover, I don't disagree with you about Spiller. Also, unless he has three spectacular seasons (1500+ rushing yards per season), he has absolutely no chance of making the HOF. No argument there.

Edited September 3, 2013 by dave mcbride