Kobe Bryant: Probable achilles tear, career-ending

[Kelly the Dog]

That's one of the differences between Kobe and MJ. When MJ first hit the NBA, he was a ball hog, too. I still remember his first couple seasons...the guy was a one man highlight reel. But as with all great players, he matured. He developed into not only the ultimate team player, but the ultimate leader. He didn't need four other great players around him in order to win a title...as cliche as it is to say about him after all these years, he put expectations on his teammates and they rose to meet those expectations. Kobe doesn't have that same effect on those around him and he never will.

Absolutely he did. People forget or ignore that it took him eight years or so to win a title, and how stacked those Bull teams were when he finally did. Pippen was a absolute star, and it wasn't just because he played with Jordan. Rodman was the best rebounder in the league, one of its best defenders, and a perfect teammate for a guy like Jordan because he never wanted the ball. Horace Grant was a stud. They had sharp-shooters, interior defense, a deep bench, and the best coach in the league. Those Bull teams he won with were great.

[Acantha]

Absolutely he did. People forget or ignore that it took him eight years or so to win a title, and how stacked those Bull teams were when he finally did. Pippen was a absolute star, and it wasn't just because he played with Jordan. Rodman was the best rebounder in the league, one of its best defenders, and a perfect teammate for a guy like Jordan because he never wanted the ball. Horace Grant was a stud. They had sharp-shooters, interior defense, a deep bench, and the best coach in the league. Those Bull teams he won with were great.

I'm not saying it's wrong, but I've noticed that the more time that goes by, the better and more "underrated" Pippen becomes.

[Kelly the Dog]

I'm not saying it's wrong, but I've noticed that the more time that goes by, the better and more "underrated" Pippen becomes.

Well, he is a Hall of Famer, named one of the 50 best players of all time, first team all defense eight years in a row, first team All NBA three times, 7 time all star, won an Olympic Gold twice. He's pretty good.

 

I think people remember Jordan as the Jordan of eight years into his career, as if it started then. The earlier Jordan was a gun, scored a ton but used to miss shots at the end of important games. Don't get me wrong, he was always a great player. But he wasn't the all everything, always winning, always playing great in crucial situations for a long, long time. And he needed a totally stacked team to win it all. People don't realize, IMO, just how good a team those Bulls were. They had everything. Three of the top defensive players in the entire league. Great shooting, great coaching, great role players, deep bench.

[section122]

Well, he is a Hall of Famer, named one of the 50 best players of all time, first team all defense eight years in a row, first team All NBA three times, 7 time all star, won an Olympic Gold twice. He's pretty good.

 

I think people remember Jordan as the Jordan of eight years into his career, as if it started then. The earlier Jordan was a gun, scored a ton but used to miss shots at the end of important games. Don't get me wrong, he was always a great player. But he wasn't the all everything, always winning, always playing great in crucial situations for a long, long time. And he needed a totally stacked team to win it all. People don't realize, IMO, just how good a team those Bulls were. They had everything. Three of the top defensive players in the entire league. Great shooting, great coaching, great role players, deep bench.

wait so you don't win 72 games in a season by yourself?

 

Rodman to me was the lynchpin for that second threepeat. He was exactly what the Bulls needed. Defense and rebounding without the slightest care of getting the ball. That is the difference between he and Kobe. Jordan's teammates acquiesced much easier to him than Kobe's. The chemistry has been the lacking piece for the Lakers teams and I imagine Kobe has some to do with that. His ego is huge but it matches Jordan's. His will to win matches Jordan. He just had teammate's whose ego's matched his Kobe/Jordan which Jordan didn't have to deal with. He was the man and nobody questioned it.

 

Basketball is an alpha male sport. Jordan's Bulls were incredibly well built. Phil Jackson is the greatest NBA coach ever (yes better than ol Red). Kerr, Paxson, Kukoc, and Hodges were supreme shooters to space the floor. Rodman, wennington, and Grant did the dirty work without caring about touches, Pippen was perhaps the best second banana ever (until Kobe was to Shaq), and then there was the greatness that was Michael Jordan.

 

Kobe's Lakers? He and Shaq battled under Del Harris. It wasn't until Phil showed up and got them to work together that they had success. The team though was fractured and Shaq was dumped for very little. That is why Kobe had success with Pau because he was productive without the ego. That is why the Lakers struggled with Dwight this year. Chemistry is important in all sports but in a sport where 1 guy can have an effect on a game unlike other sports it becomes extremely important.

[Juror#8]

Absolutely he did. People forget or ignore that it took him eight years or so to win a title, and how stacked those Bull teams were when he finally did. Pippen was a absolute star, and it wasn't just because he played with Jordan. Rodman was the best rebounder in the league, one of its best defenders, and a perfect teammate for a guy like Jordan because he never wanted the ball. Horace Grant was a stud. They had sharp-shooters, interior defense, a deep bench, and the best coach in the league. Those Bull teams he won with were great.

 

I will agree with you that Phil Jackson was the greatest NBA coach, possibly the greatest coach in any sport, ever. He won 50+ games with a Jordan-less Bulls team in 1994.

 

I just can't agree with you that Jordan had a great cast around him.

 

I am a firm believer that Pippen could just have easily been a nameless, unmemorable swing man (think JR Rider) except that he played alongside a great player like Jordan in his prime.

 

The Bulls never had a good center. At any given time they had Luc longley, Bill Cartwright, Bill Purdue, Jason Campbell. And this was during the age of Robinson, Olajuwon, Ewing, Shaq, Manu Bol (J/K but you should read about him if you get a chance - sad story) etc.

 

When Jordan left, who won those titles (Olajuwon and Robinson).

 

Steve Kerr, Paxon, Hodges, and Armstrong were single-dimensional players who could just shoot. They were only good because Jordan accentuated their skill set. There were plenty of them in the league at the time - Ehlo, Hoiberg, Hornacek, Marjle, etc. but they weren't as effective because they didn't have the same time of gamer playing along side them.

 

Horace Grant, and later, Dennis Rodman, were strong and instrumental power forwards. But Rodman couldn't score and Grant was a rebounding liability during those early Bulls runs. neither were well-rounded players at their position.

 

In my estimation, the Bulls were comprised of the best player to ever play any sport as their 2 and a GREAT 3. That's it. Every one else filled a role. A shooter. A defender. A rebounder. A paint presence.

 

But that's all they needed because Mike Money made up for every other deficiency.

 

That 94 season when MJ left, they won 50+ games and went out in the second round of the playoffs. When he came back for his first full season, they won 72 games. That's 88% of their games and 20% better than the previous year. More importantly, though, they steamrolled the league and won the title. The next season, they won 70 games (I think). And the season after that they won 60 or 61 games.

 

All on the strength of one player. The early-2000s Lakers would have won those titles without Kobe. Shaq was just that dominant in his 20s.

 

The Bulls could not have ever won a single title ever without MJ. If those Bulls had Lebron, they couldn't have won a title in the 90s. They would have never made it out of the Eastern conference. Lebron would be too battered and bruised and scared from Anthony Mason, and Larry Johnson dislocated his ribs and Isaiah Thomas taking his legs out from under him when he tried to drive the lane.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Juror#8

[Kelly the Dog]

I will agree with you that Phil Jackson was the greatest NBA coach, possibly the greatest coach in any sport, ever. He won 50+ games with a Jordan-less Bulls team in 1994.

 

I just can't agree with you that Jordan had a great cast around him.

 

I am a firm believer that Pippen could just have easily been a nameless, unmemorable swing man (think JR Rider) except that he played alongside a great player like Jordan in his prime.

 

The Bulls never had a good center. At any given time they had Luc longley, Bill Cartwright, Bill Purdue, Jason Campbell. And this was during the age of Robinson, Olajuwon, Ewing, Shaq, Manu Bol (J/K but you should read about him if you get a chance - sad story) etc.

 

When Jordan left, who won those titles (Olajuwon and Robinson).

 

Steve Kerr, Paxon, Hodges, and Armstrong were single-dimensional players who could just shoot. They were only good because Jordan accentuated their skill set. There were plenty of them in the league at the time - Ehlo, Hoiberg, Hornacek, Marjle, etc. but they weren't as effective because they didn't have the same time of gamer playing along side them.

 

Horace Grant, and later, Dennis Rodman, were strong and instrumental power forwards. But Rodman couldn't score and Grant was a rebounding liability during those early Bulls runs. neither were well-rounded players at their position.

 

In my estimation, the Bulls were comprised of the best player to ever play any sport as their 2 and a GREAT 3. That's it. Every one else filled a role. A shooter. A defender. A rebounder. A paint presence.

 

But that's all they needed because Mike Money made up for every other deficiency.

 

That 94 season when MJ left, they won 50+ games and went out in the second round of the playoffs. When he came back for his first full season, they won 72 games. That's 88% of their games and 20% better than the previous year. More importantly, though, they steamrolled the league and won the title. The next season, they won 70 games (I think). And the season after that they won 60 or 61 games.

 

All on the strength of one player. The early-2000s Lakers would have won those titles without Kobe. Shaq was just that dominant in his 20s.

 

The Bulls could not have ever won a single title ever without MJ. If those Bulls had Lebron, they couldn't have won a title in the 90s. They would have never made it out of the Eastern conference. Lebron would be too battered and bruised and scared from Anthony Mason, and Larry Johnson dislocated his ribs and Isaiah Thomas taking his legs out from under him when he tried to drive the lane.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, and that's cool. To me, all your points you made supported my argument. That the Bulls were the perfect combination of all the stuff you need to win a championship. You don't have to have a dominant center to win, you have to have great defense down the middle and great rebounding offensive and defensive, which they did. Kerr and Paxson were surely one dimensional, and they were GREAT at it. Whenever the Bulls needed a clutch shot from one of them late in the game they made it because that is what they were great at. Rodman was simply one of the most valuable players in the league BECAUSE he didn't want or need the ball.

 

Jordan was a fabulous player, no doubt, and one of the best ever, but that Bulls teams had absolutely everything a team needs to win the title, and it wasnt until they had that stacked team which did everything well did they win it all. Why do you think it took Jordan seven years to win if he did it mostly all himself? He averaged 30-35 a game immediately.

 

If Shaq was so great by himself, why didn't he win with the Magic with Hardaway who was great then as well as a couple other pretty good guys.

 

Wayne Gretzky was a better and more dominant player in his sport than Jordan ever was, Gretzky won the MVP his first eight years in the league for crissakes.

[eball]

Absolutely he did. People forget or ignore that it took him eight years or so to win a title, and how stacked those Bull teams were when he finally did. Pippen was a absolute star, and it wasn't just because he played with Jordan. Rodman was the best rebounder in the league, one of its best defenders, and a perfect teammate for a guy like Jordan because he never wanted the ball. Horace Grant was a stud. They had sharp-shooters, interior defense, a deep bench, and the best coach in the league. Those Bull teams he won with were great.

 

Actually, many will say it is precisely because he played with Jordan that Pippen was a star. It's pretty well-documented how Jordan pushed Pippen and demanded more from him, as well as all of his other teammates. And when Jordan "retired" the first time, Pippen was unable to put the Bulls over the top -- remember the hissy fit and Pippen being unwilling to take the last shot against the Knicks? Jordan MADE Pippen.

[We Come In Peace]

Actually, many will say it is precisely because he played with Jordan that Pippen was a star. It's pretty well-documented how Jordan pushed Pippen and demanded more from him, as well as all of his other teammates. And when Jordan "retired" the first time, Pippen was unable to put the Bulls over the top -- remember the hissy fit and Pippen being unwilling to take the last shot against the Knicks? Jordan MADE Pippen.

There's no question Jordan pushed Scotty to get everything he could from his natural talent and ability.

 

But that doesn't diminish the fact the guy was one of the 50 best players ever to play the game. And those dismissing the impact of Phil, Rodman, Grant, Kerr, even Cartwright are living in dream worlds. Jordan is the greatest basketball player to ever play. Bill Russell is the most clutch basketball player (and maybe player in any team sport) ever. Kobe is probably 3rd on the list.

[BuffOrange]

The year Jordan didn't play the Bulls won 55 games. Their 2nd best player was Toni Kukoc. They were screwed on a phantom foul @NY in the closing seconds of Game5 of a 7game series (Game 6 was the epic dunk on Ewing). That's enough for me to be pro-Pippen.

The rest of the team, whatever. Those guys grow on trees. Maybe not Rodman but he wasn't there for the first 3 titles.

Edited April 18, 2013 by BuffOrange

[eball]

There's no question Jordan pushed Scotty to get everything he could from his natural talent and ability.

 

But that doesn't diminish the fact the guy was one of the 50 best players ever to play the game. And those dismissing the impact of Phil, Rodman, Grant, Kerr, even Cartwright are living in dream worlds. Jordan is the greatest basketball player to ever play. Bill Russell is the most clutch basketball player (and maybe player in any team sport) ever. Kobe is probably 3rd on the list.

 

I believe it's fair to say Jordan did more to push his teammates than probably any other athlete I can think of in the history of sports. It's part of his greatness. Some of the early rosters he played on in the NBA were jokes, and he still got them to the playoffs. As they finally added more talented pieces, it was enough to take the next step.

[Kelly the Dog]

There's no question Jordan pushed Scotty to get everything he could from his natural talent and ability.

 

But that doesn't diminish the fact the guy was one of the 50 best players ever to play the game. And those dismissing the impact of Phil, Rodman, Grant, Kerr, even Cartwright are living in dream worlds. Jordan is the greatest basketball player to ever play. Bill Russell is the most clutch basketball player (and maybe player in any team sport) ever. Kobe is probably 3rd on the list.

There is no answer to the argument, it's all just opinion. But if were a GM and could have one player, it would probably be Magic Johnson over Jordan, and maybe even Jabbar over both of them. Talk about making players better around him, no one was better than Magic at that, even when those players, like Pippen with Jordan, were great by themselves. Magic had 42 points and 15 rebounds and 7 assists in the last game of NBA finals (g6) as a rookie point guard playing center (although he also played a little guard and forward)

Edited April 18, 2013 by Kelly the Dog

[BuffOrange]

Magic played zero defense.

[Kelly the Dog]

Magic played zero defense.

Sure he did. Not nearly as good as Jordan or Kobe but he did, and he rebounded, too. He averaged like 7 rebounds a game for his career. Power forwards don't average that many sometimes.

 

Just stats surely don't tell the story, but basically, Jordan averaged 30 points and 5 assists a game for his career, 40 points. Magic averaged 20 points (just under) and 11 assists a game, 42 points.

[section122]

 

 

Actually, many will say it is precisely because he played with Jordan that Pippen was a star. It's pretty well-documented how Jordan pushed Pippen and demanded more from him, as well as all of his other teammates. And when Jordan "retired" the first time, Pippen was unable to put the Bulls over the top -- remember the hissy fit and Pippen being unwilling to take the last shot against the Knicks? Jordan MADE Pippen.

 

I think you're misremembering. The reason pippen fumed and refused to enter the game was bc the last shot was drawn up for kukoc.

 

I won't defend that action but I completely understand it. It was finally his time to shine, to quiet people down that thought he was only good bc of a Jordan, and the play is called for kukoc? That was a huge slap in the face. That said he didn't handle himself well - but I get it.

[BuffOrange]

Here is the list of best players on championship teams since 1990:

Isiah

Jordan x3

Hakeem x2

Jordan x3

Duncan

Shaq x3

Duncan

?

Duncan

Wade*

Duncan

Pierce

Kobe x2

Dirk

Lebron

 

Wade* = rigged officiating, Dirk & Dallas should've won.

? = the '04 Pistons, Billups/Hamilton/Wallace - the only title team in my 32yr lifetime without a slamdunk HOF'er. This is a testament to both Larry Brown and how badly Shaq & Kobe were at each other's throats at the time imo.

If you went back further you'd find Isiah/Magicx3/Birdx2/Kareem, etc.

 

The point is these are pretty much all top ~25 players probably ever (except Dirk and Pierce but PP did have 2 all-star teammates) so it's a bit ridiculous to say "well Pippen couldn't push them over the top by himself". He wasn't in most of those guys' class but that doesn't mean he wasn't great. It's the same stupid argument people use against Boeheim - "if it wasn't for Carmello!". No kidding. Except for a couple old Celtics & UCLA teams, no championship team is a championship team without their best player in basketball. Why do people pretend otherwise? It's not like the '94 Bulls were the 2011 Cavaliers.

Edited April 19, 2013 by BuffOrange