3rdnlng Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Now that's funny! Gene, do you lead a moral, decent life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Frenkle Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 The second is that a being with omniscience does not affect one's free will. Let's say you are suddenly gifted with omniscience. Does your foreknowledge of my typing out this post mean that I didn't choose to type it? Is my choice less real simply because you know the outcome? I happen to not think so, personally. But hey, that's me. Much more interesting than the bible stuff... There is theory in physics that describes time - past, present and future - as eternal. Every slice of time that "ever was" or ever "will be" has always existed and will always exist. Our perception of time moving toward the future is simply how our brains interpret our interaction with the universe. This alone does not remove the possibility of free will. It's possible that all possibilities exist simultaneously and that our interaction with the universe collapses the wave of possibilities down to a definitive point. Who knows... In your example, I'd have to say that my foreknowledge of everything you have done, are doing or ever will do does in fact remove the possibility that you have free will, even given the out I cited above. Now, that's not to say that you wouldn't still think you have free will, but that's not technically the same thing at all. There's much debate on this topic and it's fascinating to think about. Not sure if you're aware of Benjamin Libet's experiments. They can be interpreted to mean that we have no free will, or not, as the following article proposes: http://bakerrambles.hubpages.com/hub/Do-We-Truly-have-Free-Will-The-Experiment-by-Benjamin-Libet It's kind of an unsettling topic for many people, but in my view, even if we don't have free will, we'll still think we do, so what does it really matter? Gene, do you lead a moral, decent life? Please define moral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Much more interesting than the bible stuff... There is theory in physics that describes time - past, present and future - as eternal. Every slice of time that "ever was" or ever "will be" has always existed and will always exist. Our perception of time moving toward the future is simply how our brains interpret our interaction with the universe. This alone does not remove the possibility of free will. It's possible that all possibilities exist simultaneously and that our interaction with the universe collapses the wave of possibilities down to a definitive point. Who knows... In your example, I'd have to say that my foreknowledge of everything you have done, are doing or ever will do does in fact remove the possibility that you have free will, even given the out I cited above. Now, that's not to say that you wouldn't still think you have free will, but that's not technically the same thing at all. There's much debate on this topic and it's fascinating to think about. Not sure if you're aware of Benjamin Libet's experiments. They can be interpreted to mean that we have no free will, or not, as the following article proposes: http://bakerrambles....-Benjamin-Libet It's kind of an unsettling topic for many people, but in my view, even if we don't have free will, we'll still think we do, so what does it really matter? Please define moral. mor·al /ˈmɔr əl, ˈmɒr-/ Show Spelled [mawr-uh l, mor-] Show IPA adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes. 2. expressing or conveying truths or counsel as to right conduct, as a speaker or a literary work; moralizing: a moral novel. 3. founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom: moral obligations. 4. capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct: a moral being. 5. conforming to the rules of right conduct ( opposed to immoral ): a moral man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviF Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 (edited) Much more interesting than the bible stuff... The Bible, while limited in a philosophical sense to what it contains, is rather quite interesting as its own topic. I enjoy it thoroughly. There is theory in physics that describes time - past, present and future - as eternal. Every slice of time that "ever was" or ever "will be" has always existed and will always exist. Our perception of time moving toward the future is simply how our brains interpret our interaction with the universe. This alone does not remove the possibility of free will. It's possible that all possibilities exist simultaneously and that our interaction with the universe collapses the wave of possibilities down to a definitive point. Who knows... This idea actually ties in quite nicely with the Christian theology. In your example, I'd have to say that my foreknowledge of everything you have done, are doing or ever will do does in fact remove the possibility that you have free will, even given the out I cited above. Now, that's not to say that you wouldn't still think you have free will, but that's not technically the same thing at all. There's much debate on this topic and it's fascinating to think about. Not sure if you're aware of Benjamin Libet's experiments. They can be interpreted to mean that we have no free will, or not, as the following article proposes: http://bakerrambles....-Benjamin-Libet I've heard of the experiments, but I'll have to read that later (gotta run to work). I suspect that our disagreement on that small point is a hard-line philosophical stance that neither of us are qualified to explain fully, much less change someone's mind on I might try later, though. It's kind of an unsettling topic for many people, but in my view, even if we don't have free will, we'll still think we do, so what does it really matter? Yeah, it's weird to try and think about. Then you get into thinking about how your thinking about it is predetermined, and so on, until you get a migraine. I avoid existential crises nowadays. Waste of my !@#$ing time. There's a unique stance on this that J.L. Mackie took up. He argues that God could have created a universe where we have free will and still always choose good (making the free will defense toothless). He caught some flak for it in the apologetics world, but it's worth looking up. The Miracle of Theism is an awesome read. Edited December 20, 2012 by LeviF91 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Frenkle Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 mor·al /ˈmɔr əl, ˈmɒr-/ Show IPA adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes. 2. expressing or conveying truths or counsel as to right conduct, as a speaker or a literary work; moralizing: a moral novel. 3. founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom: moral obligations. 4. capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct: a moral being. 5. conforming to the rules of right conduct ( opposed to immoral ): a moral man. Sorry, too non-specific. Could you list the principles or rules of right conduct you're asking about please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Sorry, too non-specific. Could you list the principles or rules of right conduct you're asking about please? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Frenkle Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 The Bible, while limited in a philosophical sense to what it contains, is rather quite interesting as its own topic. I enjoy it thoroughly. Maybe as a literary work or a long-running example of the telephone game. This idea actually ties in quite nicely with the Christian theology. I agree. Right up until the part where God knows everthing... I've heard of the experiments, but I'll have to read that later (gotta run to work). I suspect that our disagreement on that small point is a hard-line philosophical stance that neither of us are qualified to explain fully, much less change someone's mind on I might try later, though. They were done in the 80's I think and people are still debating the methodology, as well as the meaning of the results. It's a good read with lots of videos available as I recall. Yeah, it's weird to try and think about. Then you get into thinking about how your thinking about it is predetermined, and so on, until you get a migraine. I avoid existential crises nowadays. Waste of my !@#$ing time. There's a unique stance on this that J.L. Mackie took up. He argues that God could have created a universe where we have free will and still always choose good (making the free will defense toothless). He caught some flak for it in the apologetics world, but it's worth looking up. The Miracle of Theism is an awesome read. You must have studied religions in school at some point? While this stuff does make my head spin, I still find it interesting. Maybe I'll check that out in all the free time I don't have... No. Well, that will make it difficult to answer your question. Is it ok to do anything not explicitly prohibited by the 10 commandments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Maybe as a literary work or a long-running example of the telephone game. I agree. Right up until the part where God knows everthing... They were done in the 80's I think and people are still debating the methodology, as well as the meaning of the results. It's a good read with lots of videos available as I recall. You must have studied religions in school at some point? While this stuff does make my head spin, I still find it interesting. Maybe I'll check that out in all the free time I don't have... Well, that will make it difficult to answer your question. Is it ok to do anything not explicitly prohibited by the 10 commandments? No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Frenkle Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 No Do you think we can cover what's moral playing 20 questions? Does that question count? Does that one? Crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Do you think we can cover what's moral playing 20 questions? Does that question count? Does that one? Crap. No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinga Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) Much more interesting than the bible stuff... There is theory in physics that describes time - past, present and future - as eternal. Every slice of time that "ever was" or ever "will be" has always existed and will always exist. Our perception of time moving toward the future is simply how our brains interpret our interaction with the universe. This alone does not remove the possibility of free will. It's possible that all possibilities exist simultaneously and that our interaction with the universe collapses the wave of possibilities down to a definitive point. Who knows... . Interesting concept, and one not far off from Biblical belief if you believe that God is Omnipresent. Basically meaning, that if He is the Creator, He also therefore, Stands outside of Creation. Time itself is a concept for man based on space and matter that actually begins with the very first verse of Genesis. It reads, "In the beginning...." this would assume, nothing prior to this, so no previous "time" "God Created..." there was nothing, we know this, because of it being the beginning, so God created from nothing... "the Heavens..." the heavens gives you the first part of time, space itself... "and Earth." the second requirement of time, matter.... You see, as the Creator of everything, including time, He stands outside of it, not subject to it, so in that, He sees all things, all at once... Edited December 21, 2012 by Cinga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) Much more interesting than the bible stuff... There is theory in physics that describes time - past, present and future - as eternal. Every slice of time that "ever was" or ever "will be" has always existed and will always exist. Our perception of time moving toward the future is simply how our brains interpret our interaction with the universe. This alone does not remove the possibility of free will. It's possible that all possibilities exist simultaneously and that our interaction with the universe collapses the wave of possibilities down to a definitive point. Who knows... In your example, I'd have to say that my foreknowledge of everything you have done, are doing or ever will do does in fact remove the possibility that you have free will, even given the out I cited above. Now, that's not to say that you wouldn't still think you have free will, but that's not technically the same thing at all. There's much debate on this topic and it's fascinating to think about. Not sure if you're aware of Benjamin Libet's experiments. They can be interpreted to mean that we have no free will, or not, as the following article proposes: http://bakerrambles....-Benjamin-Libet It's kind of an unsettling topic for many people, but in my view, even if we don't have free will, we'll still think we do, so what does it really matter? Please define moral. I believe in God and find your post interesting. With respect to the part of your post I bolded I have to disagree with you on one thing. If there were no free will, only perceived free will, why would more than one possibility exist? The illusion of free will notwithstanding, our predetermined choices would all still collectively lead to only one (admittedly highly complex) outcome. I can buy the concept of time being our perception and everything existing at once either with God or without God existing. I can't get there with respect to all possibilities existing simultaneously at once without including free will in the equation. This is because without free will there is but one possibility. Am I missing something here? To me free will can only exist with God, not without him. As for the study I only skimmed it and must have misunderstood it. Care to summarize? I interpreted it as saying the subconscious tells the conscious what to do. In other words you think about moving your arm and then your arm moves. There must be more to it than that. Edited December 21, 2012 by OGTEleven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Frenkle Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Interesting concept, and one not far off from Biblical belief if you believe that God is Omnipresent. Basically meaning, that if He is the Creator, He also therefore, Stands outside of Creation. Time itself is a concept for man based on space and matter that actually begins with the very first verse of Genesis. It reads, "In the beginning...." this would assume, nothing prior to this, so no previous "time" "God Created..." there was nothing, we know this, because of it being the beginning, so God created from nothing... "the Heavens..." the heavens gives you the first part of time, space itself... "and Earth." the second requirement of time, matter.... You see, as the Creator of everything, including time, He stands outside of it, not subject to it, so in that, He sees all things, all at once... Or you could just side with Ockham and leave God out of it. Also, I'm not sure god can be omniscient in such a scenario, which poses a problem for many religions. Non of that, of course, either proves or disproves his existence. He's just not needed for this equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 I've always wondered why a confirmed athiest spends so much time and effort trying to refute the existance of God? If he's so sure of himself, why does he exspend the time? It's not like he's a missionary for godliness or anything. Or is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 I've always wondered why a confirmed athiest spends so much time and effort trying to refute the existance of God? If he's so sure of himself, why does he exspend the time? It's not like he's a missionary for godliness or anything. Or is it? Same as a person of faith trying to prove the existence of God to a non believer. In both cases, ther person doing the convincing isn't sure of themselves, so they need to eliminate the other side. Then they are right. Makes no sense to me. If believing in God makes you happy and you find strength in it, good for you. If not believing in God does the same, then good for you. Trying to take peace of mind from someone, so you can have it, doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Frenkle Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) I believe in God and find your post interesting. With respect to the part of your post I bolded I have to disagree with you on one thing. If there were no free will, only perceived free will, why would more than one possibility exist? The illusion of free will notwithstanding, our predetermined choices would all still collectively lead to only one (admittedly highly complex) outcome. I can buy the concept of time being our perception and everything existing at once either with God or without God existing. I can't get there with respect to all possibilities existing simultaneously at once without including free will in the equation. This is because without free will there is but one possibility. Am I missing something here? To me free will can only exist with God, not without him. I don't know. The existence of all possibilities is one theory dealing with this concept and is kind of an extension of quantum physics. I am certainly no expert. Another theory does away with all possibilities and suggests a single, deterministic timeline, with all points existing in perpetuity. Nobody really knows of course. As for the study I only skimmed it an must have misunderstood it. Care to summarize? I interpreted it as saying the subconscious tells the conscious what to do. In other words you think about moving your arm and then your arm moves. There must be more to it than that. There's a podcast I listen to called Radiolab which I think is very good. They describe an experiment done in the 60's, before Libet I think, which questions free will as well. They describe it pretty well - better than I can. The whole episode deals with time and free will and is worth a listen if you have the time. The notes for the episode are here: http://www.radiolab.org/2007/jul/24/ The section relevant to our discussion starts at 37:25 or so. You can listen to the mp3 here: http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/audio4.wnyc.org/radiolab/radiolab030405.mp3 Edit: Looks like I can't simply post a link to an mp3 without embedding the media player. I'd suggest going to the show page and clicking the download link: http://www.radiolab.org/2007/jul/24/ I've always wondered why a confirmed athiest spends so much time and effort trying to refute the existance of God? If he's so sure of himself, why does he exspend the time? It's not like he's a missionary for godliness or anything. Or is it? I'm curious about how things work and unwilling to just accept what is commonly "known". Questioning is in our nature, and God should not be off-limits if you want to be honest with yourself. I find it interesting that so many people believe in something for which there is no empirical evidence. I especially want to know why they just believe because I think it will help me understand myself and those around me. Edited December 21, 2012 by Gene Frenkle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 I don't know. The existence of all possibilities is one theory dealing with this concept and is kind of an extension of quantum physics. I am certainly no expert. Another theory does away with all possibilities and suggests a single, deterministic timeline, with all points existing in perpetuity. Nobody really knows of course. There's a podcast I listen to called Radiolab which I think is very good. They describe an experiment done in the 60's, before Libet I think, which questions free will as well. They describe it pretty well - better than I can. The whole episode deals with time and free will and is worth a listen if you have the time. The notes for the episode are here: http://www.radiolab.org/2007/jul/24/ The section relevant to our discussion starts at 37:25 or so. You can (legally) download the mp3 here: http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/audio4.wnyc.org/radiolab/radiolab030405.mp3 I'm curious about how things work and unwilling to just accept what is commonly "known". Questioning is in our nature, and God should not be off-limits if you want to be honest with yourself. I find it interesting that so many people believe in something for which there is no empirical evidence. I especially want to know why they just believe because I think it will help me understand myself and those around me. Well, for those who believe in God, I think this explanation would be fitting- That God, himself instilled the curiosity in us to try to know that which can't be known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 I don't know. The existence of all possibilities is one theory dealing with this concept and is kind of an extension of quantum physics. I am certainly no expert. Another theory does away with all possibilities and suggests a single, deterministic timeline, with all points existing in perpetuity. Nobody really knows of course. There's a podcast I listen to called Radiolab which I think is very good. They describe an experiment done in the 60's, before Libet I think, which questions free will as well. They describe it pretty well - better than I can. The whole episode deals with time and free will and is worth a listen if you have the time. The notes for the episode are here: http://www.radiolab.org/2007/jul/24/ The section relevant to our discussion starts at 37:25 or so. You can listen to the mp3 here: http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/audio4.wnyc.org/radiolab/radiolab030405.mp3 Edit: Looks like I can't simply post a link to an mp3 without embedding the media player. I'd suggest going to the show page and clicking the download link: http://www.radiolab.org/2007/jul/24/ I'm curious about how things work and unwilling to just accept what is commonly "known". Questioning is in our nature, and God should not be off-limits if you want to be honest with yourself. I find it interesting that so many people believe in something for which there is no empirical evidence. I especially want to know why they just believe because I think it will help me understand myself and those around me. So, in other words you're not convinced that there isn't a god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Why do Atheist spend time refuting the existence of God? to get rid of this dynamic 1. Some kind of disaster - Hurricane, drought, shooting, earthquake, terrorist attack, financial crisis 2. God is in control so he caused/let happen because he's pissed 3. What is God pissed about - Abortion, Teaching of Evolution, Homosexuality, Separation of church and State, people not tithing, Sex outside of marriage etc etc etc 4. To seek favor with this destructive God moderates want legislation but extremist don't mind shooting abortion doctors or dragging a homo behind a pickup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Why do Atheist spend time refuting the existence of God? to get rid of this dynamic 1. Some kind of disaster - Hurricane, drought, shooting, earthquake, terrorist attack, financial crisis 2. God is in control so he caused/let happen because he's pissed 3. What is God pissed about - Abortion, Teaching of Evolution, Homosexuality, Separation of church and State, people not tithing, Sex outside of marriage etc etc etc 4. To seek favor with this destructive God moderates want legislation but extremist don't mind shooting abortion doctors or dragging a homo behind a pickup You can now go back to occupying Wall Street. BTW, what is you expertise in the mortgage and real estate industries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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