NoSaint Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) Lets hear some takes on the Marlins fiasco. interesting article i just read- but i havent followed closely enough the last couple years to have a huge commentary. id love to hear some though. http://sports.yahoo.com/news/marlins-trade-a-baseball-tragedy-bud-selig-deserves-blame.html Edited November 14, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Got me amped! It also helped me come up with a stadium finance solution. The money should be in line with the wins of the organization. These tax payers put up a lot of money for a team they thought was going to try and be competitive only to have the rug pulled out from under them. Loria should have to give some money back if they become uncompetitive. For the Bills I think money should be given directly proportionate to the number of wins. This could be a retroactive thing built into contracts where a certain percentage of wins equals a certain percentage of money given. I think it should be done to all teams where if they want our money then they need to give us what we want. A winning team. It would change the incentive for teams to actually try and win instead of just profiting (I'm looking at you Ralph) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 14, 2012 Author Share Posted November 14, 2012 Got me amped! It also helped me come up with a stadium finance solution. The money should be in line with the wins of the organization. These tax payers put up a lot of money for a team they thought was going to try and be competitive only to have the rug pulled out from under them. Loria should have to give some money back if they become uncompetitive. For the Bills I think money should be given directly proportionate to the number of wins. This could be a retroactive thing built into contracts where a certain percentage of wins equals a certain percentage of money given. I think it should be done to all teams where if they want our money then they need to give us what we want. A winning team. It would change the incentive for teams to actually try and win instead of just profiting (I'm looking at you Ralph) id question with the luck factor if instead of tying it to wins, tying it to payroll or such might be more... fair? no owner wants to get tied to an extra 100m bill for the stadium if his top draft pick qb fails, or his high priced DE free agent isnt working as expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 id question with the luck factor if instead of tying it to wins, tying it to payroll or such might be more... fair? no owner wants to get tied to an extra 100m bill for the stadium if his top draft pick qb fails, or his high priced DE free agent isnt working as expected. Shhhh get your logic out of here! Let me go with my pipe dream! Nah kidding. Maybe payroll would work. I just want something anything for the money. Baseball stadiums are so sport specific it's hard to host 2 teams there but the opportunity should be given some way for the municipality to make their money back/guarantee on their investment. Hosting other events, concerts, etc.. I just don't know what the answer is now that you've blown my idea out of the water Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 14, 2012 Author Share Posted November 14, 2012 Shhhh get your logic out of here! Let me go with my pipe dream! Nah kidding. Maybe payroll would work. I just want something anything for the money. Baseball stadiums are so sport specific it's hard to host 2 teams there but the opportunity should be given some way for the municipality to make their money back/guarantee on their investment. Hosting other events, concerts, etc.. I just don't know what the answer is now that you've blown my idea out of the water the concern i hit after just thinking out loud is that it almost takes on the dynamic of subsidizing salaries instead of subsidizing the stadium if you tie it to payroll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 the concern i hit after just thinking out loud is that it almost takes on the dynamic of subsidizing salaries instead of subsidizing the stadium if you tie it to payroll. That is my concern with that idea too. Kelsay would get another extension! Tying it to wins or win percentage would at least put the motivation in their to compete. Luck does play a part and I know owners would balk it. I'm going to be thinking about this one for a bit.... As for the trade itself as a Yankees fan I'm not happy. If Johnson was on the block it would have been great to see him in pinstripes. This smacks of the Beckett Lowell trade that screwed the Yanks for years so this trade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 That's one hell of a bait and switch they pulled on their fans for the opening of that stadium. So now every big piece they added last offseason is gone now, right? Add to that all the other higher profile guys on the team. The saddest part of all is that they actually have 2 WS titles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 what, What, WHAT?!?!? I didn't hear about this! Reyes and the whole pitching staff traded to Toronto? Wow, as if the AL East wasn't tough enough! As for the scammy owners, is anyone surprised? The lesson, AS ALWAYS, is that taxpayer funded sports stadiums are nothing but a HUGE SCAM. The Miami politicians who signed off on that deal should be in prison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 what, What, WHAT?!?!? I didn't hear about this! Reyes and the whole pitching staff traded to Toronto? Wow, as if the AL East wasn't tough enough! As for the scammy owners, is anyone surprised? The lesson, AS ALWAYS, is that taxpayer funded sports stadiums are nothing but a HUGE SCAM. The Miami politicians who signed off on that deal should be in prison. I don't know if we can really take it to the scamming the taxpayers level though. They signed these guys after the stadium was built. So somehow they convinced the local government to give them all that money before the team actually looked like they were even trying to put something together. The whole thing is just a big head scratcher to me. Maybe they're freeing up cash for that stupid A-rod to Miami rumor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 I don't know if we can really take it to the scamming the taxpayers level though. They signed these guys after the stadium was built. So somehow they convinced the local government to give them all that money before the team actually looked like they were even trying to put something together. The whole thing is just a big head scratcher to me. Maybe they're freeing up cash for that stupid A-rod to Miami rumor. The entire concept of taxpayers paying billions of dollars for a baseball stadium so a few dozen people can make millions of dollars is "scamming the taxpayers". It is government corruption, plain and simple. And anyone who tries to play the "but they told us they were going to spend $200MM a year to build a 'winner'!" card deserves to be shot in the back of the head. And they would be if I was in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills_fan Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 You could almost justify it from the Marlins perspective if they got TOR's best prospects. But the prospects are only middling prospects. TOR's best were not included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Interesting article.... Wonder how many Bills fans feel this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JinVA Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 I'll bet the 42 season ticket holders are pissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 You could almost justify it from the Marlins perspective if they got TOR's best prospects. But the prospects are only middling prospects. TOR's best were not included. I believe they got the Jays #3 ranked prospect (Marisnick, the 67th top prospect in MLB), their #5 ranked prospect IIRC (Nicolino), and their 8th ranked Prospect IIRC (Hechiveria). Although the deal is still very much lopsided in the Jays favour now (and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the guys they got are flipped again in another move, I could see Buerle being dealt again, or Buck, maybe even Reyes in seperate deals now like how they made teh Edwin Jackson deal with the White Sox a few years ago to flip him to St. louis for Rasmus, or moving Taylor from the Phillies in the Halladay deal to the A's for the 1st baseman, who was later flipped to the Astros for Gose), the marlins did get a couple decent players in the deal. Escobar is a good shortstop, just fell out of favour after his "eye black" incident and was considered expendable with Hech getting ready to be moved up to the majors. Hech has alot of potential with some experience at 3rd, short and 2nd, and Mathis had a great year as the backup catcher. The receive 2 very good prospects, and Alvarez, who was durable and has some really good potential. As a Jays fan, I personally love the deal and can't believe it happened (waiting for the league to veto it though, just because) because I figured the deal would require much more from the Jays to get done (it was rumored Arencibia was originally part of the deal, now they still have him to deal for an upgrade at 1st, 2nd or LF). If I was a Marlins fan though, I would be furious that they didn't get more. Its just more of the "Same old, same old" from the Marlins after promising things would change with the new stadium. I'm surprised Loria has come out saying as an excuse that the offseason is still early and that they haven't even started shopping yet. That could get a good chunk of the backlash calmed down for now..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanM.D. Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 That's one hell of a bait and switch they pulled on their fans for the opening of that stadium. Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 id question with the luck factor if instead of tying it to wins, tying it to payroll or such might be more... fair? no owner wants to get tied to an extra 100m bill for the stadium if his top draft pick qb fails, or his high priced DE free agent isnt working as expected. Exactly, you can't tie it to wins/winning percentage because building a winning team is not a simple thing to do (although there are many here that think differently and that its as simple as spending money), and many factors outside of an owners control can affect this. Just look at the Marlins last season, who thought they would end up in last in the NL East? They brought in some of the top FAs last offseason and looked great on paper. The Bills defence looked much improved over the offseason by signing the top defensive FA and changing to the defensive guru "Wanstache" (exactly what the fans wanted). Its why games are played and championships not given out in the preseason. I have no problem with municipalities helping to fund sports facilities, those facilities bring in revenue to the municipalities also and can bring in tourists too. I don't think they should be fully funded by the municipalities though, unless they are owned and operated by the municipality with the revenue going to them and teams paying a lease to use the facility. last year the Marlins did hold up their end of the deal by spending money and trying to build a competitive team, but now they pulled the plug way too early and have gone back to their old ways so far making it look like they screwed the city over in the deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills_fan Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 I believe they got the Jays #3 ranked prospect (Marisnick, the 67th top prospect in MLB), their #5 ranked prospect IIRC (Nicolino), and their 8th ranked Prospect IIRC (Hechiveria). Although the deal is still very much lopsided in the Jays favour now (and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the guys they got are flipped again in another move, I could see Buerle being dealt again, or Buck, maybe even Reyes in seperate deals now like how they made teh Edwin Jackson deal with the White Sox a few years ago to flip him to St. louis for Rasmus, or moving Taylor from the Phillies in the Halladay deal to the A's for the 1st baseman, who was later flipped to the Astros for Gose), the marlins did get a couple decent players in the deal. Escobar is a good shortstop, just fell out of favour after his "eye black" incident and was considered expendable with Hech getting ready to be moved up to the majors. Hech has alot of potential with some experience at 3rd, short and 2nd, and Mathis had a great year as the backup catcher. The receive 2 very good prospects, and Alvarez, who was durable and has some really good potential. As a Jays fan, I personally love the deal and can't believe it happened (waiting for the league to veto it though, just because) because I figured the deal would require much more from the Jays to get done (it was rumored Arencibia was originally part of the deal, now they still have him to deal for an upgrade at 1st, 2nd or LF). If I was a Marlins fan though, I would be furious that they didn't get more. Its just more of the "Same old, same old" from the Marlins after promising things would change with the new stadium. I'm surprised Loria has come out saying as an excuse that the offseason is still early and that they haven't even started shopping yet. That could get a good chunk of the backlash calmed down for now..... Nicolino is the loss IMHO, but it is not even a big one. d'Arnaud, Gose, Syndergaard, Aaron Sanchez, Roberto Osuna, Danny Norris...all staying in Toronto. Hechhavarria is all glove, no bat (think Rey Ordonez bad with the bat). Marisnick is raw and overrated. DeSclafani is already 23 and striking out 6 batter per nine in the low minors. I mean...to not even get an everyday piece like d'Arnaud to build around is shameful for FLA (but the whole thing is shameful for FLA). As for Escobar...he has been drummed out of two organizations for his bad attitude (ATL and TOR) and FLA says they may flip him. He is a marginal player at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 I'll bet the 42 season ticket holders are pissed. I doubt it, since most of them are really Yankee fans anyway. Nicolino is the loss IMHO, but it is not even a big one. d'Arnaud, Gose, Syndergaard, Aaron Sanchez, Roberto Osuna, Danny Norris...all staying in Toronto. Hechhavarria is all glove, no bat (think Rey Ordonez bad with the bat). No dissin' my man Rey! He was my mom's favorite player; maybe the best defensive SS I've ever seen. Certainly up there with Ozzie. I was at a game where he actually had the GW RBI in the bottom of the 9th. Place went nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Nicolino is the loss IMHO, but it is not even a big one. d'Arnaud, Gose, Syndergaard, Aaron Sanchez, Roberto Osuna, Danny Norris...all staying in Toronto. Hechhavarria is all glove, no bat (think Rey Ordonez bad with the bat). Marisnick is raw and overrated. DeSclafani is already 23 and striking out 6 batter per nine in the low minors. I mean...to not even get an everyday piece like d'Arnaud to build around is shameful for FLA (but the whole thing is shameful for FLA). As for Escobar...he has been drummed out of two organizations for his bad attitude (ATL and TOR) and FLA says they may flip him. He is a marginal player at best. Hech's bat was actually pretty good for a rookie in his first look at the majors, he is a player they can use to help build from, and Escobar may be flipped, but only because they want to use Hech at SS. There was issues in ATL with Escobars attitude, but that changed in TO, there was never any concerns with his attitude in TO where they had some latin players he could hang with which could be a huge plus for him in Miami. The Marlins could have gotten much more, but looking at it the other way, the Jays are taking on alot of salary from a team looking to clear salary. Its easy to say that trades should be fair witht eh same value of players going back and forth, but in some cases just the value of the contracts being unloaded is compensation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 And now the important question: how does this move impact Buffalo. I'd image a couple of the guys the Jays shipped away were penciled in for the Bisons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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