Playoff QBs

[Orton's Arm]

By your definition of caretaker QB.

Joe Montana is caretaker QB because he had Roger Craig and Jerry Rice

Jim Kelly is a caretaker QB because he had Thurman Thomas and Andre Reed

 

and

Matt Schuab is a caretaker QB because he has Arian Foster and Andre Johnson

 

Matt Schuab is not a caretaker QB. Watch him play. He is asked to throw the ball to win the game early and often.

 

Exactly.

 

Matt Schaub's career yards per attempt is higher than Jim Kelly's. Higher than Peyton Manning's. Higher than Tom Brady's. To call Schaub a "caretaker" is beyond absurd.

[mrags]

 

 

I see a lot of qb's benefiting from stout defenses as other have pointed out. The years the steelers d was down even Ben couldnt get over the hump.

 

Their last superbowl year they were 4-0 with Charlie batch or some other guy, Dickson ?? Throwing for 109 yards per game.

 

Texans qb last year was not Schaub it was TJ Yates !!!!!

 

On this list only Brady and Manning have led the team to success despite average Defense and thats why they are going to canton.

Very nicely done. Especially the last line. It really is the best and quickest way to say it. The problem is we've had to deal with Brady for so long, that people automatically assume the only way to beat the Pats is to have a QB that's just as good or better. Uh..... Actually it's the defense that's needed to stop the whining brat.

[Orton's Arm]

Very nicely done. Especially the last line. It really is the best and quickest way to say it. The problem is we've had to deal with Brady for so long, that people automatically assume the only way to beat the Pats is to have a QB that's just as good or better. Uh..... Actually it's the defense that's needed to stop the whining brat.

 

> people automatically assume the only way to beat the Pats is to have a QB that's just as

> good or better. Uh..... Actually it's the defense that's needed to stop the whining brat.

 

The last time that a team with a very good defense + mediocre QB won the Super Bowl was after the 2002 season. That was ten years ago. Since then, every Super Bowl winning team has been led by a franchise QB. Every single one.

 

There's only one way to build a Super Bowl winning team; and that's to build a team capable of beating the Patriots in the postseason. If you can beat the Patriots in the postseason, you can beat them when they are at their most focused and at their very best.

 

Obviously, a quarterback alone does not a team make. If you want to beat the Patriots, you should have a QB in the same general category as Brady, in order to cancel him out. Then you need to build a better, more complete team than the one the Patriots have. If you do both those things, you set yourself up for success when you face the Patriots.

[section122]

By your definition of caretaker QB.

Joe Montana is caretaker QB because he had Roger Craig and Jerry Rice

Jim Kelly is a caretaker QB because he had Thurman Thomas and Andre Reed

 

and

Matt Schuab is a caretaker QB because he has Arian Foster and Andre Johnson

 

Matt Schuab is not a caretaker QB. Watch him play. He is asked to throw the ball to win the game early and often.

Nice try on the straw man argument. That was not the only reasons I listed. His stats except for ypa don't jump off the page at you. This is with the benefit of playing with the players I listed.

 

If you think Fitz is as good as Schaub, you need to change your name to section 8.

Wow did you read the thread? I have said this isn't a Schaub vs. Fitz argument. I simply said that Schaub, Flacco, and Alex Smith benefit greatly from playing with great Defenses. Fitz would as well.

 

Schaub is so average that he threw for 527 yards and five touchdowns today. Idiots.

Against the Jags D. He had a great game and I won't discount it... too much. Over half of those yards went to Andre Johnson - 273 and a td. He also accomplished this in almost 5 quarters. Thanks for bringing name calling to the discussion... it always adds a ton.

 

Exactly.

 

Matt Schaub's career yards per attempt is higher than Jim Kelly's. Higher than Peyton Manning's. Higher than Tom Brady's. To call Schaub a "caretaker" is beyond absurd.

So now he's better than Peyton and Brady?

 

Sorry but if people are going to pull straw man arguments against me I will do the same. Why is his ypa higher thank kelly? It is a completely different game. Why is it higher than Peyton and Brady? They pass much much more and the opposing D has to play against the pass. The Texans offensive philosophy is the exact opposite. They run to set up the pass.

[1B4IDie]

His stats except for ypa don't jump off the page at you.

 

 

Wow did you read the thread? I have said this isn't a Schaub vs. Fitz argument. I simply said that Schaub, Flacco, and Alex Smith benefit greatly from playing with great Defenses. Fitz would as well.

 

 

 

 

 

Matt Schuab is not a caretaker QB. Watch him play. He is asked to throw the ball to win the game early and often.

 

You're staring at stats on espn.com.

Watch Schuab play he is not a caretaker QB by any stretch of the imagination.

 

This is where you say. 1.)"I was wrong you know Schuab may be more than a caretaker QB."

or

2.) Do not respond

 

Stop trying to come up with continued nonsense to back up your nonsense statement.

[section122]

You're staring at stats on espn.com.

Watch Schuab play he is not a caretaker QB by any stretch of the imagination.

 

This is where you say. 1.)"I was wrong you know Schuab may be more than a caretaker QB."

or

2.) Do not respond

 

Stop trying to come up with continued nonsense to back up your nonsense statement.

How about I say I agree to disagree. I have watched Schaub. A ton. I come away thinking he's good not great. I also come away thinking his role is not to win games instead it is not to lose them. That's why I feel he is a caretaker. How many pro bowls has he gone to? 1 as an injury replacement. Better yet how did Matt Leinhart and then T.J. Yates look when they came in last year?

 

Apparently when you watch the Texans you see an amazing qb. I see an amazing d, the best rb in the game, a top 5 wr, and a pretty good qb.

 

edit: also I would like to know what part of my argument is nonsense?

Edited November 19, 2012 by section122

[1B4IDie]

How about I say I agree to disagree. I have watched Schaub. A ton. I come away thinking he's good not great. I also come away thinking his role is not to win games instead it is not to lose them. That's why I feel he is a caretaker. How many pro bowls has he gone to? 1 as an injury replacement. Better yet how did Matt Leinhart and then T.J. Yates look when they came in last year?

 

Apparently when you watch the Texans you see an amazing qb. I see an amazing d, the best rb in the game, a top 5 wr, and a pretty good qb.

 

edit: also I would like to know what part of my argument is nonsense?

The part where you say Schaub is a caretaker QB.

 

I don't see an amazing QB. I see a QB is that is asked to win games by throwing the ball. Who is on the receiving end of the throw is irrelevant. A Caretaker QB is not asked to win the game by throwing the ball a caretaker QB is asked to hand the ball off and not lose the game i.e. Trent Dilfer.

 

There are degrees between caretaker QB and Amazing QB.

[section122]

I see a QB is that is asked to win games by throwing the ball. Who is on the receiving end of the throw is irrelevant. A Caretaker QB is not asked to win the game by throwing the ball a caretaker QB is asked to hand the ball off and not lose the game i.e. Trent Dilfer.

Now I know you're just messing with me. The Texans rely on the pass to win their games?!?! What in the world? The texans have run the ball 350 times this year! That is the most in the league and only 4 other teams have gone over 300 carries. Conversely they have thrown the ball 335 times this year. Sounds about 50/50 right? Well that amount of attempts is tied for 21st in the league! They are over 100 attempts behind the league leader and it includes the 55 attempts he had yesterday!

 

Where Schaub falls in rankings is objective. You take offense to my use of the word caretaker which is fine but I ask you:

 

is Schaub the reason the Texans are good or is Schaub good because the supporting cast is good? Is Schaub the reason they are 9-1 or is having the best Defense in football the reason? When they make the playoffs will it be because of Schaub or because of the D/running game? T.J. Yates awaits your answer.

 

As for who is on the receiving end being irrelevant... Is Andre Johnson great because he has Matt Schaub throwing him the ball or does Schaub look better because he has Johnson to make the grabs/get open?

Edited November 19, 2012 by section122

[1B4IDie]

 

Now I know you're just messing with me. The Texans rely on the pass to win their games?!?! What in the world? The texans have run the ball 350 times this year! That is the most in the league and only 4 other teams have gone over 300 carries. Conversely they have thrown the ball 335 times this year. Sounds about 50/50 right? Well that amount of attempts is tied for 21st in the league! They are over 100 attempts behind the league leader and it includes the 55 attempts he had yesterday!

 

Where Schaub falls in rankings is objective. You take offense to my use of the word caretaker which is fine but I ask you:

 

is Schaub the reason the Texans are good or is Schaub good because the supporting cast is good? Is Schaub the reason they are 9-1 or is having the best Defense in football the reason? When they make the playoffs will it be because of Schaub or because of the D/running game? T.J. Yates awaits your answer.

 

As for who is on the receiving end being irrelevant... Is Andre Johnson great because he has Matt Schaub throwing him the ball or does Schaub look better because he has Johnson to make the grabs/get open?

And none of this has anything to do with Schaub playing like a caretaker QB, which he does not.

A lower number of passes per game relative the current pass wacky NFL doesn't mean that Schaub plays like a caretaker QB.

He is asked to win games by throwing the ball to a great receiver. That doesn't mean Schaub plays like a careataker QB.

 

[C.Biscuit97]

And none of this has anything to do with Schaub playing like a caretaker QB, which he does not.

A lower number of passes per game relative the current pass wacky NFL doesn't mean that Schaub plays like a caretaker QB.

He is asked to win games by throwing the ball to a great receiver. That doesn't mean Schaub plays like a careataker QB.

 

IMO, Schaub is a good QB who plays in a great system. Plummer went 14-2 and was finalist for MVP under the same system. The knock against Schaub are that he plays with a top 5 rb, wr, oline, and defense. He still has to perform but I feel like a lot of QBs would be successful playing for houston. He's better than Fitz but he, IMO, isn't a QB who would dramatically change our record. He's a fringe franchise guy that is really helped out by the parts around him.

[1B4IDie]

IMO, Schaub is a good QB who plays in a great system. Plummer went 14-2 and was finalist for MVP under the same system. The knock against Schaub are that he plays with a top 5 rb, wr, oline, and defense. He still has to perform but I feel like a lot of QBs would be successful playing for houston. He's better than Fitz but he, IMO, isn't a QB who would dramatically change our record. He's a fringe franchise guy that is really helped out by the parts around him.

I don't disagree.

 

Still Schaub doesn't play the role of a Caretaker QB

[section122]

And none of this has anything to do with Schaub playing like a caretaker QB, which he does not.

A lower number of passes per game relative the current pass wacky NFL doesn't mean that Schaub plays like a caretaker QB.

He is asked to win games by throwing the ball to a great receiver. That doesn't mean Schaub plays like a careataker QB.

When is he asked to do this? I just simply don't understand how low pass attempts with high rushing attempts doesn't refute this. You said yourself a caretaker hands the ball off and doesn't lose the game for his team. When I watch the Texans this is exactly what I see from Schaub - and the facts back me up relative to rushing and passing attempts.

[C.Biscuit97]

I don't disagree.

 

Still Schaub doesn't play the role of a Caretaker QB

 

Yeah, I won't put him in the Dilfer mold. He's a pro bowl type QB. But he's not in the Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Manning mode of having to win games by himself. Because if he did, Houston would be in trouble. Plus, he's very injury prone. Still, a great trade by Houston.

[section122]

Yeah, I won't put him in the Dilfer mold. He's a pro bowl type QB. But he's not in the Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Manning mode of having to win games by himself. Because if he did, Houston would be in trouble. Plus, he's very injury prone. Still, a great trade by Houston.

Of course he's better than Dilfer but does that mean he doesn't play the same role?

[1B4IDie]

When is he asked to do this? I just simply don't understand how low pass attempts with high rushing attempts doesn't refute this. You said yourself a caretaker hands the ball off and doesn't lose the game for his team. When I watch the Texans this is exactly what I see from Schaub - and the facts back me up relative to rushing and passing attempts.

Every game.

The actual fact is that Matt Schuab has on average 33 passing attempts a game.

The actual fact proves that Matt Schuab is not a caretaker QB.

 

Comparing the actual facts to other teams passing tendencies is irrelevant to the conversation.

[MRW]

Exactly.

 

Matt Schaub's career yards per attempt is higher than Jim Kelly's. Higher than Peyton Manning's. Higher than Tom Brady's. To call Schaub a "caretaker" is beyond absurd.

I know YPA is your favorite stat for evaluating QB play, but doesn't this cause you a little concern about how good an indicator it actually is?

[Orton's Arm]

Nice try on the straw man argument. That was not the only reasons I listed. His stats except for ypa don't jump off the page at you. This is with the benefit of playing with the players I listed.

 

 

Wow did you read the thread? I have said this isn't a Schaub vs. Fitz argument. I simply said that Schaub, Flacco, and Alex Smith benefit greatly from playing with great Defenses. Fitz would as well.

 

 

Against the Jags D. He had a great game and I won't discount it... too much. Over half of those yards went to Andre Johnson - 273 and a td. He also accomplished this in almost 5 quarters. Thanks for bringing name calling to the discussion... it always adds a ton.

 

 

So now he's better than Peyton and Brady?

 

Sorry but if people are going to pull straw man arguments against me I will do the same. Why is his ypa higher thank kelly? It is a completely different game. Why is it higher than Peyton and Brady? They pass much much more and the opposing D has to play against the pass. The Texans offensive philosophy is the exact opposite. They run to set up the pass.

 

> [schaub's] stats except for ypa don't jump off the page at you.

 

For QBs, the two most important stats are YPA and interception percentage. The New York Times ran a regression analysis which demonstrated that 80% of the observed variation in teams' winning percentages could be explained by yards per pass attempt, yards per rushing attempt, interception percentage, and the defensive analogs thereof. Of those stats, yards per pass attempt is three times as important as INT percentage or yards per rushing attempt.

 

> I simply said that Schaub, Flacco, and Alex Smith benefit greatly from playing with great Defenses.

 

Playing with a great defense does not seem to increase yards per attempt. Trent Dilfer played with a great defense back when he was part of the Ravens of 2000. But his yards per attempt for that season was almost identical to his career average. Tom Brady played with one of the worst defenses in NFL history last season. And yet, Brady's yards per attempt for 2011 was higher than it had been in any other season of his career. If having a great defense somehow boosts YPA, one would have expected Dilfer to have exceeded his usual standards in 2000; and Brady to have fallen short of his usual standards in 2011.

 

> Why is [schaub's] ypa higher thank kelly? It is a completely different game.

 

Johnny Unitas has a higher career yards per attempt than Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. Yards per attempt is a much more valid method of comparing QBs from different eras than is QB rating. (Not that QB rating is a particularly useful tool even for comparing QBs from the same era.)

 

Speaking of Kelly: during Kelly's time, the Bills employed a roughly 50/50 mix between run and pass. A 50/50 run/pass mix does not indicate that Jim Kelly was a caretaker QB. Nor does that same mix indicate Schaub is a caretaker QB. Especially not when Schaub has a higher career YPA than Kelly.

 

> He had a great game and I won't discount it... too much. Over half of those yards went to Andre Johnson - 273 and a td.

 

Early in his career, Brett Favre targeted Sterling Sharpe on a very high percentage of his throws. People wondered how much of Favre's success was due to Sharpe. Then Sharpe went down with a career-ending injury. Favre's numbers didn't decline at all. On the contrary: he actually started throwing for even more yards, because he began spreading the ball around more.

[Orton's Arm]

Edwards_Arm:

> Matt Schaub's career yards per attempt is higher than Jim Kelly's. Higher than Peyton Manning's. Higher than Tom Brady's.

 

MRW:

> I know YPA is your favorite stat for evaluating QB play, but doesn't this cause you a little concern about how good an indicator it actually is?

 

No.

 

Like any other stat, yards per attempt (YPA) is just a starting point. If two QBs provide exactly equal levels of play, and if one has a much stronger offensive supporting cast than the other, the one with the better cast will likely have the higher YPA.

 

Also, YPA isn't the only stat I care about. I also care about INT percentage; albeit to a lesser degree. Tom Brady has a career INT percentage of 2.1%; and Peyton Manning has a career INT percentage of 2.7%. Matt Schaub's career INT percentage is 2.5%. For comparison, Fitzpatrick's career INT percentage is 3.6%.

 

Section128 has argued that Schaub's YPA is being boosted both by the strength of his supporting cast; and by the run-oriented nature of the Texans' offense. There may be some truth to both arguments. On the other hand, the QBs to whom I've compared his stats--Manning and Brady--have also had a number of strong offensive supporting casts over the years. I would argue that Schaub is among the five or seven best QBs in the league.