dayman Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) I still think all things considered, the budget problems, the recessions effect on the middle class, the election results...while certainly not being happy the people most effected would feel 22/23% isn't the end of the world. Once again, not that they wouldn't like it lower...but it's not going to crush investment...and I'm not sure but I do think it's half that for lower income investors. As for dividends at income levels idk about that... Edited November 15, 2012 by TheNewBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 I still think all things considered, the budget problems, the recessions effect on the middle class, the election results...while certainly not being happy the people most effected would feel 22/23% isn't the end of the world. Once again, not that they wouldn't like it lower...but it's not going to crush investment...and I'm not sure but I do think it's half that for lower income investors. As for dividends at income levels idk about that... Well I disagree. You're basically taking 50% of income off the table for re-investment. That lack of money to re-invest will continue to hurt the jobs market. Second, when people in vest, they buy goods and services to support the investment. The goverment makes full tax rates on those salaries. This also will limit the small time investor looking to make some extra cash in the market. I know it's a great talking point that Romney only paid 15%, but how many jobs were created by the investments. How much extra taxes were collected by the investments in companies where jobs were created and money earned through sales? In the current economy it's probably better to drop it to 10% and ensure it stays there for 10 years or more. That would drive people out to invest and get jobs going. But keep threatening to eliminate the marginal tax rate for long term investimates like the Dems and Obama are and people keep divesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Well I disagree. You're basically taking 50% of income off the table for re-investment. That lack of money to re-invest will continue to hurt the jobs market. Second, when people in vest, they buy goods and services to support the investment. The goverment makes full tax rates on those salaries. This also will limit the small time investor looking to make some extra cash in the market. I know it's a great talking point that Romney only paid 15%, but how many jobs were created by the investments. How much extra taxes were collected by the investments in companies where jobs were created and money earned through sales? In the current economy it's probably better to drop it to 10% and ensure it stays there for 10 years or more. That would drive people out to invest and get jobs going. But keep threatening to eliminate the marginal tax rate for long term investimates like the Dems and Obama are and people keep divesting. You'll have to go slow with me now I'm challenged...where do you get the 50% income off the table for reinvestment from? And I do think (for what it is worth) that if a lot of people on the left felt that capital was the primary problem they would be with you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) I still think all things considered, the budget problems, the recessions effect on the middle class, the election results...while certainly not being happy the people most effected would feel 22/23% isn't the end of the world. Once again, not that they wouldn't like it lower...but it's not going to crush investment...and I'm not sure but I do think it's half that for lower income investors. As for dividends at income levels idk about that... I just told you how it will effect me, and those in my position. The biggest disconnect many on the lower end of the middle class and working class seem to be having is related to the aquisition and management of wealth, which isn't a skill set they nessecarilly have. Maintaining and growing wealth is a defined skill, not a circumstance, and those with that skill will always react to outside stimuli that will impact their ability to do so either positively or negatively. If, when we evaluate tax inceases and market behavior, we determine that our assets have a better chance to grow or retain value outside of an investment in line with our long and short term investment goals, we move our money. It isn't a consideration about something being marginally worse, and us enduring. It's about the constant search to maximize returns. Edited November 15, 2012 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) You'll have to go slow with me now I'm challenged...where do you get the 50% income off the table for reinvestment from? And I do think (for what it is worth) that if a lot of people on the left felt that capital was the primary problem they would be with you... If I invest a $1,000,000 dollars. Let's say I earn $100,000 this year. At 15% that's $15,000 in taxes. At 23% that's $23,000. $23,000 is roughly 50% more than $15,000. Therefore if I am one to reinvest, I have only $77,000 to reinvest or spend instead of $85,000. Either way the government just took $8,000 out of the economy. The affect with $8,000 I can hire a construction worker for 3 months. Without $8,000 that construction worker doesn't have a job. Now think about the trillions invested. How many jobs have been lost just because people are divesting and taking the sure 15% right now and holding everything else without risk, until this is worked out. If I wait until next year that maybe only $57,000 left after taxes are paid. Add to that, if I can make over seas investment with little or no taxes, guess where my money goes. They get the new jobs. And the US government gets no money. Edited November 15, 2012 by VABills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Pretend I'm stupid. Define "fair share." Be specific. I don't think it can be done and to be honest, I always though it was bad terminology. Are any taxes really fair? Life ain't fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Well we'll just have to see what they settle on and how it goes. There's no question you can always argue for a lower rate, but in the end if they decide to raise it a bit as part of new revenue we'll just have to see how it goes. I still don't think that capital is the problem and if demand gets going again I don't see 5% uptick holding things back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigfatbillsfan Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) Republican party, this is what you need to do: 1. Grow a collective set of nuts - Stop being the Conservative version of the John Kerry. Distinguish yourselves on the most imprtant issues and take them head on. Particularly on economic issues. Our economic model is unsustainable, impossible to defend, and easy to explain. Stop dancing around the issue and dive in and hammer it in common sense terms. Talk to people straight, and assume they're not retarded. A lot are, but you'll win more with logic than gimmicks and talking points. And read Milton Friedman. 2. Stop alienating women - Don't get sucked in to these stupid birth control debates (thank you Rick Santorum). And damn it, STOP TALKING ABOUT RAPE!!! What are you trying to accomplish here? How about acknowledging that although abortion is morally abhorrent, regulation of abortion is not an essential function of the federal government. That doesn't mean go pro-choice, it means talk about abortion reduction through methods other than prohibition. You'll pick up 2 voters for every 1 you lose and ironically, you'll do a lot more to reduce the number of babies snuffed out in the womb. 3. Stop demonizing Hispanics. They're actually a lot more conservative than you think. An effective immigration policy involves securing the border and making legal immigration significantly more streamlined. Cracking down on immigrants who are working is pointless. And cracking down on their employers isn't much better. If we could get them documented so they pay taxes and so we can process them w/n our criminal justice system, we eliminate most of the problems associated with illegal immigration. And stop worrying about them taking jobs. People who work help the economy. You sound like liberals talking about outsourcing. 4. Explain to blacks why free market principles are in their best interest. And talk straight; don't be patronizing or handle them with kid gloves. You'd be amazed what you can say to a black guy if you just cut through the BS and talik to him like a man. He'll respect you for it. Don't think it will work? How's your current strategy working? 5. Put your bible away. You can be as religious as you want to be, and you don't have to be shy about it, but make it damn clear that you understand the value of separation of church and state. You can acknowledge that our country was largely built on judeo-christian values, but make it clear you don't want to impose your will on others. Honestly, the most important values you derive from your religion are universal. You'd be surprised how many people have an irrational fear of a conservative theocracy. 6. Stop talking about gays. The family unit has survived across the globe and across virtually all cultures from the dawn of civilization. It's not going to collapse b/c gays get to have federally sanctioned monogamous relationships. You don't have to like it. Hell, you don't even have to support it. Just let it go. Follow this recipe, find some politicians who are halfway cool to communicate it, and not only will the party rise from the ashes, you might actually do some wonderful things to help the country. Do you know how much it pisses me off to see such a level headed, good post by you? Have you not thought about what this would do to me? It brings great joy to my hear to be able to come on these boards and hate on your crazyass posts. When you write something so normal, so thoughtful, so ...sane; it puts my entire world in a nose dive. Damn you Rob!!! DAAAMMMNNNN YOUUUUUUUU!!!! Edit: Oh and now every time I hear a song by Cake all I can think about is Paul Ryan. I just see his perfectly chiseled features, his dreamy blue eyes... Thank you for ruining one of my favorite bands! Edited November 15, 2012 by Bigfatbillsfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Well we'll just have to see what they settle on and how it goes. There's no question you can always argue for a lower rate, but in the end if they decide to raise it a bit as part of new revenue we'll just have to see how it goes. I still don't think that capital is the problem and if demand gets going again I don't see 5% uptick holding things back. How is that going to happen when your policy shift leads to immediate capital flight, causing a sharp market downturn which destroys consumer confidence and leads to resource hoarding and paying down of debt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) How is that going to happen when your policy shift leads to immediate capital flight, causing a sharp market downturn which destroys consumer confidence and leads to resource hoarding and paying down of debt? Seems like a bit of an over dramatic prediction. In any event, until some details on some new policy negotiations come out we are getting ahead of ourselves. Last I heard Boehner was insisting he can't sell it to the house unless it's done w/ our raising the rate, Obama saying his thing...so we'll have to wait and see. Edited November 15, 2012 by TheNewBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) Seems like a bit of an over dramatic prediction. In any event, until some details on some new policy negotiations come out we are getting ahead of ourselves. Last I heard Boehner was insisting he can't sell it to the house unless it's done w/ our raising the actual rate, Obama saying his thing...so we'll have to wait and see. It's already happening in anticipation of the sun-setting of the Bush Tax cuts in combination with new taxes already codified by the ACA. The wealthy and affluent don't wait and see, and then react. They take the best information available, and move proactively to protect themselves. Edited November 15, 2012 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Seems like a bit of an over dramatic prediction. In any event, until some details on some new policy negotiations come out we are getting ahead of ourselves. Last I heard Boehner was insisting he can't sell it to the house unless it's done w/ our raising the rate, Obama saying his thing...so we'll have to wait and see. Right, but don't you see, we are basically 45 days from having no marginal tax rate. People who don't want to get hit with more than 15% and certainly not the full 40% plus and bailing on the market. That is money lost from the economy. Jobs lost and government without a longterm source of income either from the investor or the people employed by those investments. it's a lose lose sitution and the only ones making it are the ones hoarding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 No I get it, and it's not going to change until there's a deal...which there probably will not be until late January of next year (which can be made retroactive back to the 1st). Obviously investors, the market, etc...not going to pick up until after that point. The question is not so much where will we be on February 5th but more so do we have a deal that makes some of the budget insanity doable that also allows for a strong economy to take off in the next 1-2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 No I get it, and it's not going to change until there's a deal...which there probably will not be until late January of next year (which can be made retroactive back to the 1st). Obviously investors, the market, etc...not going to pick up until after that point. The question is not so much where will we be on February 5th but more so do we have a deal that makes some of the budget insanity doable that also allows for a strong economy to take off in the next 1-2 years. That will be too late. Those people will have divested and either paid down debt, or moved money overseas if they still want to invest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 The money will already be out of the market, and any tax increases will not attract it back. You aren't paying attention to what we're telling you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In-A-Gadda-Levitre Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) The Daily Show on The Married vs. Single Vote as tips for Republicans... Kristen Schaal is hilarious JS: Single women are a growing demographic, what can uh, Republicans do to win their votes then? KS: Jon, they have to frame their argument through the prism of the vagina. JS: Somewhat narrow prism to look through KS: Some are huge haha KS: But Jon, all vaginas have a sacred, almost mystical function... JS: Yes, no, they produce life KS: No, they attract husbands KS: After you're married, you hardly need one anymore JS: Well, no, that's...married women do also, uh, use their vaginas KS: I guess, they have sex with a 4-Star General, but how many of those are there? Edited November 15, 2012 by In-A-Gadda-Levitre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meazza Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 No I get it, and it's not going to change until there's a deal...which there probably will not be until late January of next year (which can be made retroactive back to the 1st). Obviously investors, the market, etc...not going to pick up until after that point. The question is not so much where will we be on February 5th but more so do we have a deal that makes some of the budget insanity doable that also allows for a strong economy to take off in the next 1-2 years. Right before Hollande was elected in France (about two weeks before the election), some high wealth from France were already putting their money in lower taxed countries in anticipation of this event. I know this because I have some relatives who do this for a living. That kind of work takes time and costs money as well so if it's done, chances are they won't come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) Right before Hollande was elected in France (about two weeks before the election), some high wealth from France were already putting their money in lower taxed countries in anticipation of this event. I know this because I have some relatives who do this for a living. That kind of work takes time and costs money as well so if it's done, chances are they won't come back. Going from 18 to 23 is far cry from what that guy aims to do. And when things get cranking again, everything settles down, people know what Obamacare will do to them (good or bad) and there is certainty in the tax code...if things pick up money will be willing and able to profit off it. Nobody is thinking 2013 is going to be gangbusters is all I'm saying either way. If we end up with a 5% increase in capital gains it's not going to permanently strip our nation of capital when a hypothetical 2014/2015 start making big gains. Edited November 15, 2012 by TheNewBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meazza Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) Going from 18 to 23 is far cry from what that guy aims to do. And when things get cranking again, everything settles down, people know what Obamacare will do to them (good or bad) and there is certainty in the tax code...if things pick up money will be willing and able to profit off it. Nobody is thinking 2013 is going to be gangbusters is all I'm saying either way. If we end up with a 5% increase in capital gains it's not going to permanently strip our nation of capital when a hypothetical 2014/2015 start making big gains. Of course, Hollande was an extreme scenario but it just goes to show the impact of legislation on business planning. Obviously small gains in the rate will not completely kill investment holding all the other factors constant but with the expected drop in growth for next year, the implementation of the ACA and the continuous mess in Europe (including France's crash next year, you heard it here first), there is a good chance that the well to do are holding on to their cash until the mess clears up and foregoing income to avoid taxes. As soon as the economy hits rock bottom, they'll do what they do best and purchase assets at rock bottom. A plan to help the middle and poor classes will effectively help the rich much more. Welcome to the progressive left. Edited November 15, 2012 by meazza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 The Daily Show on The Married vs. Single Vote as tips for Republicans... Kristen Schaal is hilarious That was pretty damn funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts