billsfan89 Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Spygate takes him out of the conversation if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kemp Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Greats I have seen include Brady, Peyton, Montana, Bradshaw, Marino. Oddly, the one who I think would have neen great if not for a horrific supporting cast was Manning Sr. Those of you who don't acknowledge Brady as great either have an axe to grind or are clueless. Saying that Eli outshone him is even funnier. Eli got to go against the Pats D. Brady had a far tougher assignment. Hating Brady because we can never beat him is fine but denying his greatness is being a baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Greats I have seen include Brady, Peyton, Montana, Bradshaw, Marino. Oddly, the one who I think would have neen great if not for a horrific supporting cast was Manning Sr. Those of you who don't acknowledge Brady as great either have an axe to grind or are clueless. Saying that Eli outshone him is even funnier. Eli got to go against the Pats D. Brady had a far tougher assignment. Hating Brady because we can never beat him is fine but denying his greatness is being a baby. It's singling him out as "the greatest" that most of us take issue with....he doesn't deserve that designation and never will, IMO. Top 10 of all time, sure...top 5? Pushing it, but can make an argument. Greatest ever? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Greats I have seen include Brady, Peyton, Montana, Bradshaw, Marino. Oddly, the one who I think would have neen great if not for a horrific supporting cast was Manning Sr. Those of you who don't acknowledge Brady as great either have an axe to grind or are clueless. Saying that Eli outshone him is even funnier. Eli got to go against the Pats D. Brady had a far tougher assignment. Hating Brady because we can never beat him is fine but denying his greatness is being a baby. Brady is a great QB, no question. I think it's the "est" part that has some of us timed out. Interested that you don't include Steve Young on your list of greats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoggyHog Posted September 2, 2012 Author Share Posted September 2, 2012 A good question is: hypothetically (I know, just go with it) if Brady spent his career in Buffalo and had the numbers he currently does, would this change your opinion of him being or not being the greatest of all time? He'd be a Bill, so you'd love him. I belive it would change my mind. I'd be more passionate about the argument. Some people hate him so much, they won't look at the body of work he's done. They passionately hate him which skews their thinking. I don't know if there is an accurate calculation that can determine who is the best, however in my opinion, he certainly is in the top 5 of all time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 People put too much stock in post-season record when evaluating the QB. He's one position. When One QBs team takes on the other, it's not like either one has any impact on the D the other faces. it's fun for us to look at the rivalry, but it's a game of 22 guys on the field at any time, and not all coaches are created equal. Some guys, like Brady, have one coach their whole careers. Other guys see their coach go to Seattle and have to muddle through the likes of Ray Rhodes and Mike Sherman before they finally get a decent coach in the waning days of their careers. How does Marino not get in on this action? He was putting up numbers that would be among league leaders now back in the 80s. And what about Favre. In the late 90s he was the best player in the league and the gap wasn't close. Neither of those guys had much around them. Marino never had a defense or running game around him. He was so good he could single handedly pick most teams apart in the regular season, but come playoff time you're going to come up against some complete teams and if all you have is a great QB you're going to lose, period. No QB is Superman. When Favre had an O-line and a D he won a SB and put his team in position to win another. He had surrounding casts in the early and late stages of his career, when his teams were dominant, but in the middle years he played for some piss poor teams with HORRIBLE coaching that he single handedly carried to .500 or better seasons all but once in his career (not counting the debacle that was his last season in MN when he was all beat up). Tom Brady might make the top ten, But greatest of all time? Nope, not even close. The fact that I agree with you makes me think perhaps I should reevaluate my position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreakPop Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Any argument where you have to use "if only...." is a losing argument. And by "surrounding cast" I'm talking about more than the skill positions. Brady's losses to the Giants are HUGE dings to his record, especially the first loss against a 10-6 team. Whatever, Manning couldn't even get to another superbowl and have the luxury to lose it. Toms been to 5. Nuff said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Exactly screw Manning. He shouldnt even be in the discussion. 2 appearances, 1 ring, on a team that did whatever he asked. Versus Brady 5 appearances, 3 rings, for an owner who kept losing key players on offense and especially defense because be was too cheap and thin skinned. The haven't won a ring since spygate has nothing to do with Brady, the offense has just gotten better and better. And everything to do with the continued decline on defense from best to one of the worst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Exactly screw Manning. He shouldnt even be in the discussion. 2 appearances, 1 ring, on a team that did whatever he asked. Versus Brady 5 appearances, 3 rings, for an owner who kept losing key players on offense and especially defense because be was too cheap and thin skinned. The haven't won a ring since spygate has nothing to do with Brady, the offense has just gotten better and better. And everything to do with the continued decline on defense from best to one of the worst Not even in the discussion? Do you even watch the games? GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 (edited) Whatever, Manning couldn't even get to another superbowl and have the luxury to lose it. Toms been to 5. Nuff said! See Rob's House And in terms of how having to use "if only..." in arguments means it's a losing argument, just as someone could say if Manningham or Tyree doesn't make a clutch catch then the Tom wins another ring or whatever, I could just as easily say if Lee Evans makes that catch in the endzone the Pats don't even make the super bowl. You can play the "what if" game all day...it doesn't mean anything. Either something happens or it doesn't happen. Edited September 2, 2012 by ajzepp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Not even in the discussion? Do you even watch the games? GO BILLS!!! Super bowl on the line, chance for career defining drive aka montana, watch this ..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBlvjtfpPAg&feature=youtube_gdata_player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/tom-brady-not-so-terrific/13378/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pneumonic Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 (edited) As mentioned previously, if the criteria for determining Brady's greatness is of the present, then I can certainly see why people would say no to the question of him being the GOAT. However, the guy wants to play until he's 40, another 5 or so years. He's in his prime and playing at an unbelievably high level right now. And he has an organization that will ensure that he has the proper weapons to continue performing at a high level. Further, it's highly probable that he'll be playing on a team that is likely going to be favoured to win the SB, every year, the rest of his playing days. As such, it's conceivable that Brady could have most of the game's passing and winning records, including regular and post season, by the time he hangs them up. In such a case, it may well be that this conversation is moot as it'll be obvious, to anyone who is objective, that Brady is the GOAT QB. Edited September 2, 2012 by Pneumonic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 As mentioned previously, if the criteria for determining Brady's greatness is of the present, then I can certainly see why people would say no to the question of him being the GOAT. However, the guy wants to play until he's 40, another 5 or so years. He's in his prime and playing at an unbelievably high level right now. And he has an organization that will ensure that he has the proper weapons to continue performing at a high level. Including a team that is likely going to be favoured to win the SB, every year, the rest of his playing days. As such, it's conceivable that Brady could have most of the game's passing and winning records, including regular and post season, by the time he hangs them up. In such a case, it may well be that this conversation is moot as it'll be obvious that Brady is the GOAT QB. Yeah, but that's like saying Emmit Smith is the greatest RB of all time. He's the NFL's all-time rushing leader, but I don't know a lot of people who will say he's the greatest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kemp Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 It's singling him out as "the greatest" that most of us take issue with....he doesn't deserve that designation and never will, IMO. Top 10 of all time, sure...top 5? Pushing it, but can make an argument. Greatest ever? No. You call any qb the greatest and there is a valid argument against it. Brady is as good as any that has ever stepped on the field. Whether he is the best is only an argument for fans. It can't be proved. And as someone else already pointed out, if Brady was a Bill, the answers here would be significantly different. Brady's career has been magnificent. The only argument against him is that he has played for the greatest coach I have ever seen, including, Lombardi. It is much harder for a team to remain good now than it was then. Those of you who cling to this notion that Belichick isn't an amazing talent because of the scandal are blissfully unaware of what every team does in order to win. I remember at Giants games when opposing FG kickers were lining up, they would open the doors at one end of the stadium in order to change the winds to sabotage the kicker. Then there's steroids which brought the Steelers tremendous success. Imagine all of the things we don't know about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pneumonic Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Yeah, but that's like saying Emmit Smith is the greatest RB of all time. He's the NFL's all-time rushing leader, but I don't know a lot of people who will say he's the greatest. Would it be though? Presuming that Brady does play until he's 40 and ends up with most of the games passing records and adds at least another SB win to his collection, he'll be in rarefied company atop the list at the position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 You call any qb the greatest and there is a valid argument against it. Brady is as good as any that has ever stepped on the field. Whether he is the best is only an argument for fans. It can't be proved. And as someone else already pointed out, if Brady was a Bill, the answers here would be significantly different. Brady's career has been magnificent. The only argument against him is that he has played for the greatest coach I have ever seen, including, Lombardi. It is much harder for a team to remain good now than it was then. Those of you who cling to this notion that Belichick isn't an amazing talent because of the scandal are blissfully unaware of what every team does in order to win. I remember at Giants games when opposing FG kickers were lining up, they would open the doors at one end of the stadium in order to change the winds to sabotage the kicker. Then there's steroids which brought the Steelers tremendous success. Imagine all of the things we don't know about. Reminds me of Spygate. If Brady didn't have the 3 SBs would we still talk about him this way? Would anyone still say he was better than Manning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Whether he is the best is only an argument for fans. It can't be proved. Of course not...that's why we have discussions like this. So you think we should start a petition to have the trophy changed to the Belichick Trophy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pneumonic Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Reminds me of Spygate. If Brady didn't have the 3 SBs would we still talk about him this way? Would anyone still say he was better than Manning? I guess that depends on how much value you believe the whole spygate affair had on the outcome of games. For most, outside of this place, it's rarely a concern. Kinda like the blip on Elways career for being part of a team that cheated the salary cap enroute to winning their super bowls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Would it be though? Presuming that Brady does play until he's 40 and ends up with most of the games passing records and adds at least another SB win to his collection, he'll be in rarefied company atop the list at the position. I guess he better just hope he doesn't play the Giants...otherwise he'll be a big part of the reason why all of a sudden Bills fans are always saying how the Pats lost more SBs than the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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